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Why do mtb brakes suck so much?

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,157
359
Roanoke, VA
I just went out to my car to find a tire lever. Under my seat I found 7 non-functional front brakes. A gustav, Juicy 5+7's, 2 Hayes Mag's, a mono mini, an el camino and an hfx-9. Except for the Gustav, which was 5 years old by the time it got to me and the Mini, wich magically appeared in my toolbox from unknown origin, all of these brakes had o-ring or master-cylinder failures within their first 5 months of use.

All require different bleedkits or fittings, and some are bled drastically differently than the others. Different brands, and even different models within the brands require different fittings and different pads.

The bike industry needs to remedy this stuff. I have a pair of Juicy's that work within a certain range of barometric pressure. I've had a few sets of mags just give up the ghost, and determined that the calipers were fatally coated with plaque that had seeped in through the lines.

Do people who ride moto have this many failures due to crap tolerances and o-ring wear? I love the Gustav's, I may have had pretty much simultaneous front and rear brake failure, but these were the same o-rings that had been in the brakes for 5 years of DH racing! But they weigh many pounds to many for bicycle use...

Some companies that make brakes for moto, earthmovers etc... somehow build completely un-reliable Bicycle brakes, an even though they've been building brakes for 30 years, managed to release a product (El Camino) that is worse in every important way (ergonomics, power, reliability) than the first bike brake they introduced 7 years ago....

It just blows me away that we've had widespread Disc brake use for nearly 10 years now in DH, and it still does not seem that there are products out there that are inexpensive (or more accurately, the right price), reliable and powerful.

Am I missing out not using Shimano/Grimeca brakes? It seems like there are plenty of the old XT 4 pots still chugging along, whereas Hayes from that Vintage got tossed in the dumpster 2 seasons ago...

Step up bike industry!
 

Bicyclist

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2004
10,152
2
SB
Word. It seems like brakes are getting better but they all still suck. Hey who uses brakes anyways?

In my experiences Shimanos are the easiest to work on, the most reliable, and the best in terms of feel/power. Formulas are pretty damn good too.
 

julianBC

Chimp
Mar 24, 2004
40
0
My shimano's felt good and were easy to work on. But I have had the best luck with my hayes mag dh brakes, no trouble so far.
 

bballe336

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2005
1,757
0
MA
My main problem is the mounting. We need an industry standard caliper mounting. IS isn't cutting it (it's hardly standard and the calipers need to be more standardized as well). I have nice brakes that I can't use because I can't afford the damn adapters.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I don't think it's the brakes that suck.

So living on the east coast and the vast range of barometric pressures you experience having an effect on your avids hasn't indicated air in your lines to you?

Bleeding brakes and buying adapters is just so hard.

If universal applications between brands is your main priority, buy some v-brakes.

And yes I'd reccomend shimanos. The new ones or make sure to get some goodrich lines for the old ones though. The old ones suck with the stock lines.
 

Kntr

Turbo Monkey
Jan 25, 2003
7,526
21
Montana
My black Hayes Mags are on their second bike and 4th season of riding and I have had NO problems. They have only been rebled 2 times. I am on my 10th or 11th pair of pads. They have over 2000 DH miles on them..... Yes I run an odometer. I love my Hayes with Goodridge lines.
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
I think you've just had some bad luck... I've never had a single brake fail, and I've had:
Hayes Champagne
Newer Hayes (forgot which ones they were - made in last 4 years)
Old Hopes (going on a new frame that I just got)
Shimano XT 4pots - which are currently on my bikes (2 pair).

My favorite so far - the shimano XT 4 Pots; simple and work great (Even with the stock lines). The hopes are a close second, although they are so old now that I'm not sure I can even get the pads for them (older 4 pad version of the M4).

In the defense of the industry - it's a lot easier to make something cheaply if you don't have to worry about weight and size. To miniaturize something and make it still work just as well is time consuming and costly.
 

Zark

Hey little girl, do you want some candy?
Oct 18, 2001
6,254
7
Reno 911
2001 Hayes Mags, that have been on 3 bikes and bled once.....
I've put about 6-7000' of vert descending every weekend for 5 years.....
Yeah, pretty unreliable:rolleyes:
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,157
359
Roanoke, VA
California Dilhole,
I can bleed brakes properly with my eyes closed. The piston seals swell up just enough to have power around 80% humidity and falling barometric pressure. Drier or wetter, or more pressure and fluid actually seeps out of the piston... I do prefer a good set of Vbrakes in the dry, as they are lightweight, reliable and extremely powerful. I've yet to use a disc brake on my XC race bike that works as well as a good set of V brakes for as long without failures or excessive maitenance.
 

sama1ter

Monkey
Apr 29, 2004
665
0
The OC
Shimano. Saints and xt 4pots, and even deores are only things ill THINK about running on my bike. i dont like hayes or hopes. maybe ill try magura next time, but for now, the saints are AWESOME.
 

bikenweed

Turbo Monkey
Oct 21, 2004
2,432
0
Los Osos
I agree, MTB brakes are horrible. I have an extra pair of non-functional brakes as well. It seems to me like the companies spend way too much time and effort on silly things like "power adjusters" and lighter weight, when the effort really needs to be used for reliability, standardization, and lowering of prices.

Shimano's work very well, it's very easy to find replacement parts all over the world, they are light, simple to bleed, and don't fail too often. My $20 Shimano hydro's work better than my $220 Hayes Mags.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,187
media blackout
just throwing this out there (although I don't think its the case, just exploring possibilities):

are you sure you're not just flat out squeezing the lever too dang hard? if the o-rings and cylinders are failing so quick on so many different models, there's the possibility its not brake but the user. combine that with the wide range of environmental conditions seen by equipment on the east coast and you have a possible explanation.
 

DHS

Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy
Apr 23, 2002
5,094
0
Sand, CA
you should be able to squeeze the lever to the point of you bending the lever before your seals blow
 

mxer338

Monkey
May 9, 2005
324
0
CT
ever since i switched from moto to mtb, ive been saying same thing.
The bikes are lighter, the suspension is about the same, but damn do mtb brakes suck. i have never... ever had a brake problem after almost 10 years of riding dirtbikes, through 7 bikes and countless broekn parts, never once did a brake system fail on me after repeated abuse. sure ive broken levers, but those are cheap and its better than buying a whole master cylinder kit when you rip the lever out of a hayes brake.

my next set of brakes is going to be gustavs, they seem to be worry free and powerful, with a 5 year warantee to boot.
 

Bicyclist

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2004
10,152
2
SB
Dirtbike brakes can weigh 10 pounds though. When you've gotta pedal your ass up and down the hill everything has to be lighter and therefore less reliable.
 

DH biker

Turbo Monkey
Dec 12, 2004
1,185
0
North East
bjanga said:
Mech discs.

They are beautiful considering the price and the maintainence required.
Then you have to worry about cables snapping and they just don't fel as "nice" and "powerful" to me.
 

Kornphlake

Turbo Monkey
Oct 8, 2002
2,632
1
Portland, OR
bjanga said:
Mech discs.

They are beautiful considering the price and the maintainence required.

I'll second that, with a little simple mantinance they are adequate, maybe not the best of the best, but Avid Mechs with a good pair of levers are certainly adequate.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
I have had great luck with MTB brakes.

Ive had Hayes, Shimano and Avids and never experienced anything liek you're talking about at all. Sounds like user error from here.

EDIT: Maybe if you didnt bleed them with your eyes closed you'd have better luck.
 

Ian F

Turbo Monkey
Sep 8, 2001
1,016
0
Philadelphia area
Hmm... haven't had an issue with my Hayes on either bike they've been installed on other than a hose blowing off (due to bad install by me). Otherwise, they've been solid and reliable... through 100 degree days w/ 90% humidity (East Coast) to sub-zero temps on Winter rides... to perfect temps/humidity at Whistler a couple of years ago... been meaning to bleed some new fluid into them for... oh should have been done about 2 years ago... :rolleyes:

Now my Hopes on the other hand... my god I hated those things... :mumble:
 

in the trees

Turbo Monkey
May 19, 2003
1,210
1
NH
Maybe I'm just lucky but I've used the same set of Hayes brakes since early 2000 (Mags with G1 calipers). For me, they are extremely reliable and I've had them on four different bikes over the years. I know that others have had such bad experiences with Hayes. All I've had to do since I bought them, aside from pads and a yearly bleed, was to replace the rear hose this year (because it was too short from my old frame - Imperial), and replace the MCs since the reach adjust bolt was stripped and no longer available as an individual part. Not too bad. Each year I think about trying something new, but these continue to work for me. And I know how to work on them and bleed them properly. These brakes definitely don't owe me anything - I got my money's worth.

toby
 

pdawg

Monkey
Feb 27, 2006
310
0
Espoo, Finland
I'm running Hayes Mag on both my freeride and trailbike... less spare parts to have hanging around. Have needed to replace the master cylinder once after taking some soil samples. The levers are nice and scuffed... glad they are not carbon fiber.
 

Benton

Monkey
Aug 8, 2003
118
0
SLC
huh.

I've only ever had two sets of disc brakes. 2002 Magura Julies and some 2003 Hayes Mags. I've bled each set once, replaced the pads once, and had ZERO problems with either set. I always thought that disc brakes were a lot less maintenence trouble than V-Brakes. I ride probably 3 times a week and don't even think about my brakes.

I think you've had bad luck.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
SuspectDevice said:
California Dilhole,.
Where's northampton massachusettes california dillhole?

Sounds like like smelly place to live.

Gosh.....mountain biking is so confusing


SuspectDevice said:
I can bleed brakes properly with my eyes closed. .
Obviously

SuspectDevice said:
The piston seals swell up just enough to have power around 80% humidity and falling barometric pressure. Drier or wetter, or more pressure and fluid actually seeps out of the piston... I do prefer a good set of Vbrakes in the dry, as they are lightweight, reliable and extremely powerful. I've yet to use a disc brake on my XC race bike that works as well as a good set of V brakes for as long without failures or excessive maitenance.
So you have a seal problem with a pair of avids and can't get any of the other major brands to function as well as the great majority of the planet using them and so all mountain bike brakes suck?

Instead of throwing temper tantrums why not deal with the problems which very likely have readily available solutions?

Is it tough to get bike parts in northampton massachussettes california dillhole?
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,157
359
Roanoke, VA
GAHHH.
You must have a lot of spare time that you can use to replace 2 cent orings and mastercylinders all day. I'd rather have stuff that doesn't disintegrate after a few weeks of use...

I have a drawer full of replacement Hayes parts, but after 3 years of fixing the damn things bi-weekly I'd rather just keep them in a bucket out back by the bikewash.

Call any major bikeshop in the Northeast, and ask them on average how many pairs of Avid or Hayes brakes they see that have developed fatal failures after only a few weeks of use. It's an astonishing number.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
SuspectDevice said:
GAHHH.
You must have a lot of spare time that you can use to replace 2 cent orings and mastercylinders all day. I'd rather have stuff that doesn't disintegrate after a few weeks of use...
.
I do have the time to sit down with my equipment and make sure it works and is not experiencing user error or is a defect before lambasting the entire genre of system. Apparently you do not?

SuspectDevice said:
I have a drawer full of replacement Hayes parts, but after 3 years of fixing the damn things bi-weekly I'd rather just keep them in a bucket out back by the bikewash.
.
Hayes brakes? Must be some obscure niche company. Never seen them in action. Probably some far out in leftfield design that could never work on any large scale in multiple applications.

SuspectDevice said:
Call any major bikeshop in the Northeast, and ask them on average how many pairs of Avid or Hayes brakes they see that have developed fatal failures after only a few weeks of use. It's an astonishing number.
So I was right.........northampton massachussettes california dillhole is in the northeast.

I don't know how you guys do it out there but here on the west coast, we follow directions and take the time to put things together properly. When a piece is faulty, it gets replaced by the manufacturer. If in fact an entire system is flawed it becomes quite apparent accross the board........dare I say nationwide. Right now it sounds like it's just at your house in northampton massachussettes california dillhole.
 

chicodude

The Spooninator
Mar 28, 2004
1,054
2
Paradise
Heh....My shimanos have never given me any trouble. I bled them once, and 3 years and three bikes later guess what?



THEY STILL WORK PERFECT!!!!11!11
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
1,116
NORCAL is the hizzle
There is some whacky stuff in this thread. Pulling the brakes too hard? V's are better than discs? Comparing bike components to earthmovers?

Are you people sipping the DOT 4?

I've owned a few different kinds of Shimanos as well as juicy 7's. I have always found them to be relatively inexpensive, reliable, and powerful. I have never blown a seal or had problems, other than the occasional need to bleed and replace pads.

I do flush and replace the fluid every year. If you don't do that, your seal problems may be from contaminated fluid. Or not. I also clean and lube the pistons whenever I replace pads. Again, failure to do that could give you seal problems. Or not.

In my experience, Shimanos are the easiest to work on. Hayes are pretty much the worst. Avids are somewhere in the middle but they have a VERY USEFUL contact point adjustment that the others don't.
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,157
359
Roanoke, VA
So, as far as I can tell every single person who has responded to this thread that has never had any brake problems is from arid west or Cali.

Folks from the East seem to have more problems, apparently because we are less intelligent and posses inferior mechanical abilities...