Why do mtb brakes suck so much?

SuspectDevice said:

So, as far as I can tell every single person who has responded to this thread that has never had any brake problems is from arid west or Cali.

Folks from the East seem to have more problems, apparently because we are less intelligent and posses inferior mechanical abilities...

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Well "as far as you can tell" must not be very far because I clearly stated that Ive had great luck and Im from the east. Ive lived in Hawaii and used them there too. It humid down south, and Ive had them in elevation in colorado. Dude, its you.

SuspectDevice said:

So, as far as I can tell every single person who has responded to this thread that has never had any brake problems is from arid west or Cali.

Folks from the East seem to have more problems, apparently because we are less intelligent and posses inferior mechanical abilities...

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Come on out to arid Norcal to ride during our winter sometime. But bring your rain gear.

Your answer is in your first post. You complain that heavy machinery has reliable brakes. Then you say you've had good luck with Gustavs, but they are too heavy for you. What does that tell you?

Ten years or so is just not that long to refine these systems. But they are getting there.

SuspectDevice said:

So, as far as I can tell every single person who has responded to this thread that has never had any brake problems is from arid west or Cali.

Folks from the East seem to have more problems, apparently because we are less intelligent and posses inferior mechanical abilities...

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Well the only part I will argue is that its not very dry in the PNW. The rest is spot on though.
In an attempt to be helpful: I have seen lots of premature piston seal failures and other brake problems develop from excess heat generation. This has usually been from running 6" rotors when an 8" was more appropriate, or from heavy riders, or both.
How big a boy are ya?

V-brakes better than disc? You hurt my feelings when you say stuff like that.

SuspectDevice said:

Folks from the East seem to have more problems, apparently because we are less intelligent and posses inferior mechanical abilities...

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While that certainly is true the following is not.....

SuspectDevice said:

So, as far as I can tell every single person who has responded to this thread that has never had any brake problems is from arid west or Cali....

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Quit getting hung up on where you live. It's not that relevant. I used hayes brakes for years on the east coast. They worked there too.

What you've actually heard is that you are in possesion of equipment that works fine for a very large majority of people and that it's highly unlikely that you and you alone have gotten bad batches of hayes, magura and avid brakes. What is more likely the case is that you're expecting to use these things without ever making adjustments or perform what's pretty standard maintenence on them.

Throwing what's likely to be very functional brakes in the trash or in yer bukkit of disgrace is not only a waste of time and money but also just kind of stupid when what you see as the only outcome is that all hydro brakes suck. They don't. Take the time to learn how to fix them. Starting a thread with a specific question on how to address the problems you're experiencing would be a good start.

Zark said:

2001 Hayes Mags, that have been on 3 bikes and bled once.....
I've put about 6-7000' of vert descending every weekend for 5 years.....
Yeah, pretty unreliable

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that's pretty much what i was thinking.
except i thoroughly purge the fluid once a year. only because the impurities that collect in brake fluid hinder heat dissapation.
whether i really feel the difference or if it's all in my head is another matter entirely.

barometric pressure differences ?
give me a break.

i d.h. when it's 20 degrees and 0% humidity, all the way to 100degrees+ and 95% humidity.
never felt the difference in braking power.

I have original hayes brakes..like 1998ish - they still work perfectly. They averaged 12 races a year, + 40 or so more days of riding a summer for 6 years. In fact, they work as well here on the east coast as they did when I lived in colorado or the months I spent in Nor cal. Pretty much the 3 humidity/altitude extremes there.

I Switched to shimano this year as I got swung a set for free and my hayes were starting to get a little ghetto. Not a single problem, in fact, i haven't even bled them since i installed them. New pads and rotors went on today thansk to shimano support here at the WC.

So no, bike brakes dont suck.

ragin-sagin said:

How big a boy are ya?

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i'd guess mickey is about 160 pounds.

Dude, sweet flame war.

For the record I have had mixed to good experiences with discs.

I had one pair of old Magura Louise brakes that never worked properly despite many rebleedings.

And my purple Hayes have been going for over three years now. However despite rebleeding and new pads they are starting to lose their umph. I've put a load of miles on them though.

I just thought of something.......don't you know dan, big guy who rode a yellow SGS for a while.....friends with mobius and lives/lived in DC? Posted as dBr here a while back?

Get him to look at your brakes. He's as mechanically inclined as anybody. I'd bet he can get them working very well.

kidwoo said:

I just thought of something.......don't you know dan, big guy who rode a yellow SGS for a while.....friends with mobius and lives/lived in DC? Posted as dBr here a while back?

Get him to look at your brakes. He's as mechanically inclined as anybody. I'd bet he can get them working very well.

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SuspectDevice has worked on my brakes. He definitely knows what he is doing. I can't explain why his brakes don't work but he has made mine work plenty well.

kidwoo said:

I just thought of something.......don't you know dan, big guy who rode a yellow SGS for a while.....friends with mobius and lives/lived in DC? Posted as dBr here a while back?

Get him to look at your brakes. He's as mechanically inclined as anybody. I'd bet he can get them working very well.

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Hey, Ive ridden w/ dan before. Good guy.

BurlyShirley said:

Hey, Ive ridden w/ dan before. Good guy.

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Fo sho. We met up in whistler a few years ago.

Is he still riding? I know he doesn't post here anymore so of course the logical conclusion is that he doesn't ride bikes anymore.

kidwoo said:

Fo sho. We met up in whistler a few years ago.

Is he still riding? I know he doesn't post here anymore so of course the logical conclusion is that he doesn't ride bikes anymore.

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I have no idea. I rode w/ him in 02 i think and I saw his name in race results the next year, but havent seen or heard anything from him since. I think he was in law school, so who knows...

I have to say I agree with mickey fully, I was just bitching to myself about this just the other day. I have yet to get a full season out of a pair of hydraulic brakes for downhiling without nearly spending as much as Ive paid for them in repairs.

My hayes mags I finally just threw away. I spent way more money then I paid for them just repairing them. The last time they broke they were basically beyond repair. Ive had a double brake failure riding these brakes downhill...it wasnt a fun crash.. Ive had brake fluid shoot out all over my jersey during a ride, ive had the inner liner of the brake line fail but not the outer liner, causing no actual leak of fluid from the brake, but a complete failure of the system with no explanation. That was fun. Both lever adjustment screws would constantly back out and eventually froze in place.


I bought a set of juicys at the beginning of last summer, and if it werent for the SRAM guys at nationals, I was looking at some serious $$. In repairs. In only 1.5 seasons, the front brake had completely died, the back brake lever went to the bar and needed to be bled badly, the star-wheel lever adjuster knobs had fallen off somewhere and the worm-drive behind it was completely gnarled up and stripped. My rear brake line is kinked in several places and has a buldge in it, becuase the stock juicy lines are super wimpy flexible plastic hose that kinks if you look at it wrong. For 2 new lines, a bleed kit, star wheel kits, and a lever clamp is almost as much as I paid. During this time I also snapped a lever clamp bolt. Ill concede this as my brake did clip it into a tree in the woods, but im glad for 07 sram machined this peice out hollow to make it weaker. I dont think my hayes would have broke in that crash.

If anyone needs to buy hayes calipers, lever bodies, levers, random bits and peices I have a whole drawer full of their crap.

If the brake industry built FOOL PROOF brakes they would weigh too much for bicycle weight weenies. Larger master cylinders, positive pad retraction calipers, thicker rotors, steel braided hoses etc. Bicycle components are always built w/ weight in mind which has to compromise design. Personally I havn't had many brake problems as I stay on top of maintenance anf follow set-up instructions. I see a lot of freinds complain about bike parts only because they beat the crap out of them and expect them to be maintenance free.

I think so much of bicycle brake performance has to do with set up that it is difficult to judge any system purely on the merit of its design and construction. Automobile discs and most motorcycle systems are significantly larger in every aspect than their bicycle counterparts. Sport bikes often have two thick front rotors, two calipers, and much larger fluid capacities than mountain bikes. They also have better cooling thanks to ducts in their bodywork and higher average speeds they see on open roads.

i dont know what the hell you guys do to your brakes. but i seem to consistantly run mine into trees and might have to replace a hose once a season.
sucks when **** brakes...

A.P said:

I have to say I agree with mickey fully, I was just bitching to myself about this just the other day. I have yet to get a full season out of a pair of hydraulic brakes for downhiling without...

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If you take out all the problems you have had from crashes and lack of maintenace how many problems have you had? I am guessing very few.

The current brakes I think can be very reliable. The only problems I have had have been from lack of maintenace, or rider error on my part that led to a crash. It is crazy to think running a light weight aluminum lever into a tree or the ground is not going to break it. I run the clamp of my lever loose on my bars so the levers stay in place but they can rotate on the bars. This alone can save your levers many times.

Every leaking problem I have had has been a result of kinking a brake line or smashing a brake line. If I ran braided steel lines this would not be a problem. I have had problems with my brake pads staying seated in my calipers, this was a result of letting one set of pads run two low and grinding the post that holds the pad in place down a tiny amount.

And most of my problems never happened when I rode on the east coast, they all started to show up once I came to Colorado.

Man that sucks. I could make you guys physically sick to your stomachs with my lack of maintenance, and I haven't really had any brake problems. I have owned mags, nines, and juicy 7's...all with great results. The only disc brake I have ever messed up was a hayes mx2 mechanical on my old dirt jump bike (had to replace the caliper).

Other than pads being overpriced (imo) they seem to work.

I really don't think the weather has that great of an effect on braking at all.

SuspectDevice said:

Folks from the East seem to have more problems, apparently because we are less intelligent and posses inferior mechanical abilities...

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But we are more well endowed.


8=============================D

SuspectDevice said:

Under my seat I found 7 non-functional front brakes. A gustav, Juicy 5+7's, 2 Hayes Mag's, a mono mini, an el camino and an hfx-9.

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There's one major brand that's not on your list, as others have mentioned.
I'd suggest trying it.

Bicyclist said:

I really don't think the weather has that great of an effect on braking at all.

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I do. In wet and slop brakes don't work well. When it's dry they work fine.

The reason why MTB brakes suck so much is that people have to set them up (bleed them when shortening the lines, etc).

Most people can't even tune a derailer properly, so expecting them to work with their brakes is asking a lot.

Jm_ said:

The reason why MTB brakes suck so much is that people have to set them up (bleed them when shortening the lines, etc).

Most people can't even tune a derailer properly, so expecting them to work with their brakes is asking a lot.

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Well if you are having your brakes bled by the maufacturer at a race (probably won't happen nowadays) or are having them bled by someone who knows that they are doing the brakes should work fine. And most people on this forum can bleed their own brakes properly.

I think Suspect Device has a serious case of bad brake karma going on. Case in point, the front brake that just failed (Avid) was working perfectly when he had it on his other bike (a couple of days ago). As soon as he switched it over - it stopped working. Yes, he DOES know what he is doing in regards to setting up and maintaining these things. There just does not seem to be any reason why this brake would have failed aside from some kind of bad mojo.

I can't speak to the other brakes he has, but I can say that in general the lack of standardization in the market is a pain. It is great if you have Hopes or whatever bling brakes you like and they work, but if something does go wrong (which given the abusive nature of DH and FR riding, is going to happen), good luck finding just the right parts so you can keep rolling (actually stopping, but you get my point). The solution is to use Hayes - lots of parts available, but there is a reason everybody stocks these parts (as in common failures).

I'd love to see a hydro disc brake that is a reliable as a V brake setup, and which has replaceent pads and such easily available. Wouldn't you?

bballe336 said:

And most people on this forum can bleed their own brakes properly.

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Sure.

Jm_ said:

Sure.

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Well, I can. And SkaTodd says I'm a grom.

i dont know about you guys, but my hopes are easy to service and bleed and ive never had problems with them concerning power or faliures of small parts.

oh wait there is one thing that really pisses me off about these brakes,
the little pad spring thing has broken repeatedly until i just dont buy more,
and i stripped my master cylindey pin (my fault) so the brake was like 4inches from the bar.

might i add i have seen many faliures with hayes, avid, and low en magura julies.
i have seen faliures with hope but most of them were mechanic stupidity.

DHCorky said:

If you take out all the problems you have had from crashes and lack of maintenace how many problems have you had? I am guessing very few.

The current brakes I think can be very reliable. The only problems I have had have been from lack of maintenace, or rider error on my part that led to a crash. It is crazy to think running a light weight aluminum lever into a tree or the ground is not going to break it. I run the clamp of my lever loose on my bars so the levers stay in place but they can rotate on the bars. This alone can save your levers many times.

Every leaking problem I have had has been a result of kinking a brake line or smashing a brake line. If I ran braided steel lines this would not be a problem. I have had problems with my brake pads staying seated in my calipers, this was a result of letting one set of pads run two low and grinding the post that holds the pad in place down a tiny amount.

And most of my problems never happened when I rode on the east coast, they all started to show up once I came to Colorado.

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i guarantee you that's 95% of it right there.
i wonder how many of these guys ride em hard and put em up wet, over and over again ?
not replacing pads until they are completely gone is a huge mistake. that leads to over extending the pistons and premature rotor wear.
not cleaning and inspecting after every session ?
that's when you notice little things that left unchecked, lead to blown brake lines and such.

where we ride, most of us maintain our bikes well.
those that don't, usually come out make one or two runs and then you'll see em in the parkinglot with the bike upside down and a look of total confusion on their faces. followed by them loading up and going home early.

I have ridden juicy's and saints all over north east crap including winter and snowshoe riding, never had a problem with either of them in any conditions...dry/muddy/snowy/rain...

I think this thread is sort of pointless, there is alot of good solid stuff out there...

Your mileage may vary...

I have ridden:
Formulas - bought them on a bike in '96. Only problem I had was when I was stupid and thought taking the caliper apart was the way to change the pads. After that it never worked the same again including after having Brett Foes bleed them for me twice in Big Bear (I was riding a Foes LTS), and having the Formula guys at the WC at Snoqualmie Pass warranty the caliper. I think I threw the brake away?
Hayes - first pair in Big Bear in '97 (? what ever the first year they were available to the public). They levers broke in the van on the drive down. This was a bad time for them as the lever perches were VERY WEAK and the line at the Hayes booth was real long. I had some problems on the 8+ pairs I've owned since then (had discs on my DH, XC and DS bikes since they have been available), but nothing catastrophic. Never had a problem mid-run, or least one that made me stop and not ride the bike. My big gripe with Hayes is the mounting interference with shifters.
Avids - tried them last year in the search for more power or maybe just to try something different? They delivered on power! Put them on both my bikes I liked them so much. The ONLY problem in 1-1/2 years is that I ended up overturning the reach adjuster screw and the red dial(?) at the same time which did bad things. Took it to the shop and they undid my boo-boo.
I rode a friends bike with Maguras and I want to try a pair on my DH bike now.

BTW, I ride year around in the PNW and while we don't get those famous east coast 300% humidity days, we get plenty of moisture (37"+ anually). We ride from sea-level to over 6000' (~6500' at the start in Wilamette Pass last weekend).
I am also 230+ #'s.

SuspectDevice said:

this young girl $10 a day to assemble the caliper in a dimly lit room.

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Your problem is probably related to using brakes assembled with a sewing machine.

dan-o said:

Your problem is probably related to using brakes assembled with a sewing machine.

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Only through open and honest discussion is the true root of any problem uncovered.

kidwoo said:

Fo sho. We met up in whistler a few years ago.

Is he still riding? I know he doesn't post here anymore so of course the logical conclusion is that he doesn't ride bikes anymore.

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He still rides - he was at the US Open with the rest of the Team XXL or at leat part of the team.

CBJ said:

He still rides - he was at the US Open with the rest of the Team XXL or at leat part of the team.

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Tell him kidwoo says "woot"


Give'em a howdy for me won't you?