Quantcast

2007 IH Sundays?

T

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,577
0
Victoria
dw said:
Iron Horse does not control its shock suppliers, but whatever. The 2007 bike (designed over 1 year ago) has completely different links and pivots, as well as a new 10mm shock hardware standard. If you so choose, you can tighten the shock hardware down tight enough to crush the shock bushing, but if the shock maker delivers defective DU bushings, its just going to mask any issues, not solve them. I agree with you though, you should take the word of some people on an internet chatroom instead of going and checking it out on your own to see whats up. :)

Dave
Click to expand...
Fair call, but if it's entirely the fault of the shock manufacturers, why does it not seem to be such an issue with other bikes? And why is it prevalent with both Fox and 5th equipped bikes? For the record, I have seen numerous 06 bikes (Elites, WCs and a single Team) with rear-end play, in person. I was wondering if I'd just seen the unlucky few or something, but it would appear otherwise (and knowing Cave Dweller, he doesn't normally talk smack in my experience).

Is there any online site with specs on the 10mm hardware standard? Or an explanation on it?
 
CBJ

CBJ

year old fart
Mar 19, 2002
12,874
4,214
Copenhagen, Denmark
I have seen smilar play from worn DUs on my Orange 222 with a 5th and on my friends M3 with a Fox DHX.

But why not a bearing in stead of a DU?
 
LukeD

LukeD

Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
751
2
Massachusetts
i don't see the big deal to be honest. my 05 world cup had issues with play in the rear end right away...once i got the correct hardware there hasn't been a problem with it at all. i mean really, is it that big of a deal? i can see if frames started folding because they weren't heat treated or something...but this is a quick easy fix that has been addressed and is being taken care of.
 
S.K.C.

S.K.C.

Turbo Monkey
Feb 28, 2005
4,096
25
Pa. / North Jersey
dw:
That link in the pic is 100% CNC machined from 7075T6 billet

The production bikes have forged 7075 T6 links that are CNC'd after. They are insanely strong, very light, and very very expensive to make, which is why most other bikes use heavier and weaker 6061 links. There's a new lower link arrangement with screw in pivots and a simple but effective shock bolting solution.

The 10mm hardware has proven to be pretty trick also.

Dave
Click to expand...

Dave - I was just wondering - for those people out there that own 05' or 06' Sundays can they buy the new linkage and hardware to upgrade. I suppose maybe as some kind of "Linkage Upgrade Kit"?

BTW - I was able to get my hands on a 7050 T6 E.Thirteen 40T chainring... Damn! If anyone has ever held one in their hands before it is INASNELY lightweight. It's like holding an index card in you hand. If the new links are just as light but from something high-quality and strong like 7050 Alu. then they should be tha sh!t.:)

As far as loose shock hardware goes - I was talking with Lars at the Open, and he said it wasn't that big a deal. It might need some tightening from time to time, but it's not like he has to do it every day.

BTW: Lars Tribus is the COOLEST, nicest Pro to talk with that I've ever met. You guys at Iron Horse have one of the greatest ambassadors to DH this side of Steve Peat.
 
Cave Dweller

Cave Dweller

Monkey
May 6, 2003
993
0
dw said:
That link in the pic is 100% CNC machined from 7075T6 billet

The production bikes have forged 7075 T6 links that are CNC'd after. They are insanely strong, very light, and very very expensive to make, which is why most other bikes use heavier and weaker 6061 links. There's a new lower link arrangement with screw in pivots and a simple but effective shock bolting solution.

The 10mm hardware has proven to be pretty trick also.

Dave
Click to expand...
Thanks for saying that dave, i like the idea of forged links, means less waste material.

But wouldn't the forged links be cheaper then the CNC part? To get a curved link like that would require a fair amount of CNC time and a big chunk of material. I guess it all depends on the voulme you are getting made.

Are any other parts on the sunday forged, like the area that the shock sits in?

Im really looking forward to seeing how your 10mm hardware turns out.
 
Daver

Daver

Monkey
Jun 1, 2005
390
0
Shiddeny
S.K.C. said:
Dave - I was just wondering - for those people out there that own 05' or 06' Sundays can they buy the new linkage and hardware to upgrade. I suppose maybe as some kind of "Linkage Upgrade Kit"?
Click to expand...
I want one too.
 
frznnomad

frznnomad

Turbo Monkey
Jun 20, 2005
2,226
0
a-town biatches
lol dave it looks like youve started something here man. i have a good feeling that i also know two guys with 06's that would love the new linkage for them.
 
Ian Collins

Ian Collins

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,428
0
Pacific Beach, San Diego, CA
thaflyinfatman said:
Fair call, but if it's entirely the fault of the shock manufacturers, why does it not seem to be such an issue with other bikes? And why is it prevalent with both Fox and 5th equipped bikes? For the record, I have seen numerous 06 bikes (Elites, WCs and a single Team) with rear-end play, in person. I was wondering if I'd just seen the unlucky few or something, but it would appear otherwise (and knowing Cave Dweller, he doesn't normally talk smack in my experience).

Is there any online site with specs on the 10mm hardware standard? Or an explanation on it?
Click to expand...

It really is shock related man......the only shocks that seem to last a long time and ward off rear end play rather than encourage it are avalanche shocks.....most shocks use aluminum shock pins where avalanche uses stainless steel ones......this is the same concept as using a stainless steel headset in a steel headtube vs using an aluminum headset in an aluminum headtube......when you apply load to ALUMINUM, it COMPRESSES....end of story.....you press a AL headset into a headtube it compresses 2-4 thousandths of an inch and over time you develop an ovalized headtube(this is why 1.5 came out).....you press a steel one in and it basically doesn't compress at all......this is why chris king makes the steelset, and they also make headsets and will sell{if you ask} that are 2,3, and 4 one-thousandth of an inch oversized to sort of accompensate for that compression ahead of time and give you a better interference fit........

anyways.....it's a similar concept with shock pins....they are the weak part of the equation.....the compress into the bushing and they're tiny and the take a beating from every direction, compress a bit so the tolerance is lost, and now you've got some play at the eyelets.....we all know that once you have play in one place it seems to spawn all over to every other possible point of articulation......so yeah.......if other shock manufacturers started using stainless shock pins, there would be far less problems....the reason they aren't doing this is cost...there are too many linkage/shock pin/eyelet interfaces and it would be too costly to make this all in stainless steel....rant over
 
T

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,577
0
Victoria
Ian Collins said:
It really is shock related man......the only shocks that seem to last a long time and ward off rear end play rather than encourage it are avalanche shocks.....most shocks use aluminum shock pins where avalanche uses stainless steel ones......this is the same concept as using a stainless steel headset in a steel headtube vs using an aluminum headset in an aluminum headtube......when you apply load to ALUMINUM, it COMPRESSES....end of story.....you press a AL headset into a headtube it compresses 2-4 thousandths of an inch and over time you develop an ovalized headtube(this is why 1.5 came out).....you press a steel one in and it basically doesn't compress at all......this is why chris king makes the steelset, and they also make headsets and will sell{if you ask} that are 2,3, and 4 one-thousandth of an inch oversized to sort of accompensate for that compression ahead of time and give you a better interference fit........

anyways.....it's a similar concept with shock pins....they are the weak part of the equation.....the compress into the bushing and they're tiny and the take a beating from every direction, compress a bit so the tolerance is lost, and now you've got some play at the eyelets.....we all know that once you have play in one place it seems to spawn all over to every other possible point of articulation......so yeah.......if other shock manufacturers started using stainless shock pins, there would be far less problems....the reason they aren't doing this is cost...there are too many linkage/shock pin/eyelet interfaces and it would be too costly to make this all in stainless steel....rant over
Click to expand...
Everything compresses when you apply a (compressive) load to it, DUH. And sorry, but you're talking shït about ovalising headtubes. Any material will deform plastically if you exceed its yield stress, and you CANNOT make generalisations like that about aluminium vs steel - they are flat out wrong.

Just so you know: DU bushes and the shock hardware WEAR OUT because they are RUBBING, not because they are undergoing a compressive load. If their tolerances are out to begin with, they will develop play, and THEN they start to cop localised plastic deformation, because the load isn't being distributed evenly as it's designed to. Yes steel will usually be better in this application, because it is harder and more wear-resistant.

So back to the point: whoever's fault it is, the Sundays seem to be WORSE affected by it than most bikes, in my experience. This is a shame because they are an otherwise solid bike. Being a heavy guy who doesn't ride smoothly, I don't want to spend all my time replacing hardware, and if it's STILL screwed up - regardless of who is at fault - I'm not going to touch it.
 
danielbender

danielbender

Monkey
Sep 21, 2004
152
0
Brazil
S.K.C. said:
dw:
Dave - I was just wondering - for those people out there that own 05' or 06' Sundays can they buy the new linkage and hardware to upgrade. I suppose maybe as some kind of "Linkage Upgrade Kit"?
Click to expand...
I spoke with team manager in WC Brazil and he told me YES, we (owners of 05 ad 06 sundays) can buy this new upper and lower linkage!

now the question is:

When it will be avaliable?
 
Ian Collins

Ian Collins

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,428
0
Pacific Beach, San Diego, CA
thaflyinfatman said:
you CANNOT make generalisations like that about aluminium vs steel - they are flat out wrong.

DU bushes and the shock hardware WEAR OUT because they are RUBBING, not because they are undergoing a compressive load.
Click to expand...
1- yes, you can.....it's a simple known fact....Steel is MORE DENSE than aluminum, good luck disproving that.....it's not a generaliZation, it's a KNOWN fact......

2- how can you determine whether DU bushings wear out from rubbing VS. compression?.......you can't!......I can tell you one thing.....I've seen countless examples of bent shock hardware, and asymetrically deformed and bent AL shock pins.....both of those things lead me to believe that high impact compressions lead to mishapened, compressed shock pins that no longer have an interference fit in their DU bushing..........
 
T

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,577
0
Victoria
Ian Collins said:
1- yes, you can.....it's a simple known fact....Steel is MORE DENSE than aluminum, good luck disproving that.....it's not a generaliZation, it's a KNOWN fact......

2- how can you determine whether DU bushings wear out from rubbing VS. compression?.......you can't!......I can tell you one thing.....I've seen countless examples of bent shock hardware, and asymetrically deformed and bent AL shock pins.....both of those things lead me to believe that high impact compressions lead to mishapened, compressed shock pins that no longer have an interference fit in their DU bushing..........
Click to expand...
Sorry but clearly you have no idea when it comes to mechanical properties of materials. Density DOES NOT MATTER. Lead is more dense than steel, does that make it HARDER or STRONGER? No. Some grades of aluminium (7075 for example) are actually HARDER AND STRONGER than many grades of steel. Neither aluminium nor steel NECESSARILY exhibit plastic deformation just because they're loaded in compression, otherwise your aluminium DHR frame would slowly slacken right out as your top tube compresses over time. So no, you cannot make those generalisations, and if you continue to do so I will simply ignore anything you say in future.

DU bushes are designed to take any force that the shock itself may undergo, and relative to the forces at hand, the bushes in MTB shocks are huge. The compressive force you'd need to cause one of those to yield (disregarding fatigue including surface fatigue, which in addition to wear, are why they're replaceable) would be many many times what would kill the shock itself (or the frame), UNLESS the tolerance is out already, in which case the impacts can generate extremely high forces for very short periods of time.
Bent shock hardware? So what? I've bent steel shock pins too, OMG!!!11 Asymmetrically deformed? No shït, they ONLY RUB ON ONE SIDE in case you hadn't noticed. Nothing deforms symmetrically anyway, unless it's in pure tension, and even then it's rare. As I said, the only time you will get pure compressive failure is BECAUSE of the tolerance with the DU bush being lost; it will not be the cause of that tolerance being lost.

For what it's worth, aluminium shock hardware CAN be made to work, if the tolerances and design permit for it. Obviously if you have really wide spacing at the shock link, then you're going to need something as strong as possible, and in this context, most grades of aluminium (or even low-grade steel) may not be enough.
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
Just an FYI, even FOX (as of 2007 model year) does not recommend their Aluminum shock hardware for their DH and Freeride bike OEM customers. They strongly recommned the use of their steel hardware.

Dave
 
vitox

vitox

Turbo Monkey
Sep 23, 2001
2,936
1
Santiago du Chili
dw said:
Just an FYI, even FOX (as of 2007 model year) does not recommend their Aluminum shock hardware for their DH and Freeride bike OEM customers. They strongly recommned the use of their steel hardware.

Dave
Click to expand...

wow talk about better late than never!

im sure that policy change will mean a lot less headaches for dhers around the world.
 
G

General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
0
The 802
fox and progressive both use the same size mounting hardare so i've always run the dhx with the steel harware from a 5th. problem solved
 
Bicyclist

Bicyclist

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2004
10,152
2
SB
I wouldn't consider a Sunday a FR bike, it's pretty much strictly a race bike.

That said, the DW link suspension makes for good pedal efficiency for climbing compared to other bikes in the DH realm. IMO, it makes for a harsher ride though.
 
noskcaj

noskcaj

Monkey
Oct 24, 2005
106
0
Northford, CT
The real reasons why steel hardware is better for shocks over aluminum is that it does not deform as easily as 6061 aluminum does (which is what fox bushings seem to be made from). Also, aluminum is a very abrasive material, if you have ever worked with it, the tooling dulls rather quickly. In contrast, steel has a much smother structure which is better suited for high load bushings.
 
S

sbabuser

Turbo Monkey
Dec 22, 2004
1,114
55
Golden, CO
Bicyclist said:
That said, the DW link suspension makes for good pedal efficiency for climbing compared to other bikes in the DH realm. IMO, it makes for a harsher ride though.
Click to expand...
:rofl:
And this is based on? Did you parking lot demo one? Was it at least set up for your weight? Yeah, that's what I thought...
I know a few ppl that switched to Sundays from other plush dh bikes, and none of them have complained or even mentioned that the Sunday was harsh comparatively. I think you're grasping for straws... :clue:
 
Bicyclist

Bicyclist

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2004
10,152
2
SB
No, actually I've ridden my bud's DW-link 7point extensively and it's just a bit "dead" feeling compared to a design that's not designed to inhibit pedal bob, with the same shock and both of which had the right spring rate. How do you expect a bike that DOESN'T move as much with low frequency up-and-down movement (pedalling) to be as active as one that moves more? That said I think the Sunday is a fantastic bike, I considered selling my Demo for one for a while.

Oh, haha, that's what I thought. Next time before you pick a fight know what you're talking about. :clue:
 
MOTODH

MOTODH

Turbo Monkey
Mar 28, 2005
1,167
0
CT
Bicyclist said:
No, actually I've ridden my bud's DW-link 7point extensively and it's just a bit "dead" feeling compared to a design that's not designed to inhibit pedal bob, with the same shock and both of which had the right spring rate. How do you expect a bike that DOESN'T move as much with low frequency up-and-down movement (pedalling) to be as active as one that moves more? That said I think the Sunday is a fantastic bike, I considered selling my Demo for one for a while.

Oh, haha, that's what I thought. Next time before you pick a fight know what you're talking about. :clue:
Click to expand...

Pedaling movement is a lot different from suspension being so-called "plush" and active. Read up a little more about DW-Link to go more in depth. The deadness you described may be attributed to the 5th element shock that was most likely on the bike.
 
CKxx

CKxx

Monkey
Apr 10, 2006
669
0
art vandelay said:
5ths on a sunday feel dead. DHX on a sunday feels very lively/active.
Click to expand...
That sentance would work with the "sunday" space filled by the name of nearly any full suspension bike.
 
S

sbabuser

Turbo Monkey
Dec 22, 2004
1,114
55
Golden, CO
Bicyclist said:
No, actually I've ridden my bud's DW-link 7point extensively and it's just a bit "dead" feeling compared to a design that's not designed to inhibit pedal bob, with the same shock and both of which had the right spring rate.
Click to expand...
Was the 5th revalved for the 7 point? Did you check sag, rebound and compression damping to make sure it was set up correctly?
:nuts: I owned one for a year, and it does make a difference. That said, there is a huge difference b/t the ride of the revalved 5th on the 7 point, and my Sunday w/ dhx, or my friend's with a Roco. Plush is the first word that comes to mind, and that's compared to a number of other suspension designs I've trail ridden - dhr and v-10 among them.
I never really thought the 7 point felt plush, but then it's designed to pedal.
How much ride time ya got on a Sunday, anyway? :rolleyes:
 
Bicyclist

Bicyclist

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2004
10,152
2
SB
It was valved for the 7point, the sag was correct, the rebound speed was about where I liked it, and there wasn't a compression adjust. The SPV was minimum.

You say the 7point is "designed to pedal." Is the suspension system tweaked to increase pedaling performance? Just wondering.

My point was that IN MY EXPERIENCE DW-Link isn't quite as "active" as other suspension designs. I don't really care if you agree with me, but your post title of "haha" incited a bit of an argument.

And again, I feel that it's just a quality of the DW-link system, not a downfall.

As far as the feeling being attributed to the 5th, the bike I compared it to had a Swinger with very similar setting so...
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
Bicyclist said:
No, actually I've ridden my bud's DW-link 7point extensively and it's just a bit "dead" feeling compared to a design that's not designed to inhibit pedal bob, with the same shock and both of which had the right spring rate. How do you expect a bike that DOESN'T move as much with low frequency up-and-down movement (pedalling) to be as active as one that moves more? That said I think the Sunday is a fantastic bike, I considered selling my Demo for one for a while.

Oh, haha, that's what I thought. Next time before you pick a fight know what you're talking about. :clue:
Click to expand...
If you are riding a 7POINT with the same shock as on your other bike, thats your problem. "Dead" is the last word that can be used to describe a properly tuned dw-link bike. The problem is that riders think that they can just take the shock off of their Specialized, Kona, SantaCruz, etc... and expect it to work. It doesn't. The dw-link bikes require about 1/3 the compression damping of these other bikes. Otherwise, the bike will feel "dead".

If the term "active" is being used as a measure of how easily a suspension moves to absorb bumps under acceleration and braking, then currently, there is no suspension on the world on any vehicle that I know of that is as "active" as a dw-link bicycle.

Dave
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
Bicyclist said:
It was valved for the 7point, the sag was correct, the rebound speed was about where I liked it, and there wasn't a compression adjust. The SPV was minimum.

You say the 7point is "designed to pedal." Is the suspension system tweaked to increase pedaling performance? Just wondering.

My point was that IN MY EXPERIENCE DW-Link isn't quite as "active" as other suspension designs. I don't really care if you agree with me, but your post title of "haha" incited a bit of an argument.

And again, I feel that it's just a quality of the DW-link system, not a downfall.

As far as the feeling being attributed to the 5th, the bike I compared it to had a Swinger with very similar setting so...
Click to expand...
You ABSOLUTELY did not have the bike set up correctly, and that is a guarrantee.

Dave
 
frznnomad

frznnomad

Turbo Monkey
Jun 20, 2005
2,226
0
a-town biatches
way to go dave lol. okay so since this subject has been brought up any tunning advice for all the sunday owners and future owners such as myself. thanks in advance.
 
D

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
julian_dh said:
i know there are very few sunday's in canada whats up with that?
Click to expand...
For reasons I will never understand, SportChek is still the exclusive distributor and retailer for Iron Horse bikes in Canada. This, despite the fact that none of thier staff know anything about the bikes, the sales staff have no idea about them, and trying to order something like a Sunday will cost you more money and aggrivation then you would beleive.

Amazingly, its actually cheaper to order a Sunday frame or bike from the US and import it. Even after the taxes and duty, its still cheaper then the ridiculous prices SportChek asks for. Then you'll also get the great support Go-Ride can offer, instead of the pathetic blubberings of some $7 an hour asshat that knows nothing about the bike, but will
spout of some of the most ridiculous **** you've ever heard anyways.


PLEASE IH, get into real bike stores up here! Your stuff is so good....I die a little bit inside every time I think about the Sunday not being available...
 
S

sbabuser

Turbo Monkey
Dec 22, 2004
1,114
55
Golden, CO
Bicyclist said:
And again, I feel that it's just a quality of the DW-link system, not a downfall.
QUOTE]

Hmm, "harsh" listed as a quality, that might be a first.

Take a ride on a Sunday when you get a chance, I bet harsh isn't the first thought that comes to mind...
Click to expand...
 
CBJ

CBJ

year old fart
Mar 19, 2002
12,874
4,214
Copenhagen, Denmark
frznnomad said:
way to go dave lol. okay so since this subject has been brought up any tunning advice for all the sunday owners and future owners such as myself. thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
My experince over the last two seasons is that you its more about how you want to setup up your bike. There are so many combinations with spring, boost valve, pro pedal, air in the DHX etc. So you have to find out what you want to do with the bike.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom