Love it or leave it....

I just hate the way some people throw around that phrase. If I critisize my country I get love it or leave it thrown in my face. Just because I think things could be better does no mean I don't love my country. I don't like our current foreign policy, I also don't like the tax laws, and speed limits. It does not mean I do not love this country. Some people have unpopular points of view and they have every right to express it. Many have died fighting for the constitution which provides the freedom of speach, which implies freedom of opinion. Denying people those rights goes against what many have sacrificed for.

i agree that the terms associated with patriotism have been thrown around a lot lately. if someone has a different opinion about the way things are being run here in the US that's fine, it doesn't make you a non-patriot for wanting to see things done differently. but doing something like turning your back on the flag......now that's heinous! there are some things that can be viewed as truly anti-american and some that are simply voicing opposition. there is nothing wrong with voicing opposition, that's how are country got to where it is today (whether that state is a good one is a different matter), but i will be the first to shout love it or leave it if catch someone defyling the very thing that symbolizes their freedom to be here.

"like it or don't like it,
love it or don't love it;
disrespect it and get the hell out!"

Originally posted by Dog Welder
To me that phrase sounds like pure idiocy. Love it or leave it...what if I love this country so much that I don't want to leave. And instead work toward making it better according to what I believe is right? Would that make me any less of a patriot? Trust me I LOVE this country...you know why? Cuz I've been to third world countries and I've been to other first world countries...and believe me WE GOT IT GOOOOOOOD. Yer damn right I'm proud to be an American.

Secondly why does it seem that the way the words patriot and patriotism, are being used today sounds like you aren't one if you don't agree with the current administration? Most of the time that I can recall the usage of Patriot and its derivatives are normally during times of war.

Don't mind me I don't visit here often. Flame away. Peace.

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I agree....it's even worse when you live in a military town like San Diego....I don't love this country one bit but until I find a better this one one will do fine.....D

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but it's morally treasonable to the American public." - Teddy Roosevelt

"Patriotism is voluntary; when you're forced into it it's totalitarianism; when you just do it because everyone else is doing it, it's spineless." - Unknown

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” - Samuel Johnson

"Patriotism is a lively sense of collective responsibility. Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on its own dunghill and calling for larger spurs and brighter beaks." - Richard Aldington

"If tyranny and oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." -James Madison

Statements like "love it or leave it" fly in the face of the very principles and ideals on which this country was founded. But even then they are free to make them.

Originally posted by manimal
truly anti-american

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I can't think of what this could possibly mean, other than eating right and exercising.

"Patriotism is a lively sense of collective responsibility. Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on its own dunghill and calling for larger spurs and brighter beaks." - Richard Aldington

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Aldington used an apostrophe in the word "it's". Pfft, get your facts straight.

There are signs around Crested Butte, Colorado -- if you've heard of CB, it's cuz there's awesome riding there! -- that say:

Love it
by
Leaving it
The way you
found it.

Seriously, just like that. The first several times my friends and I saw the signs were from at a distance and after some local business said, "sorry, we're all out" -- whether a t-shirt, type of beer, or food. We saw that sign and felt the indifference, kinda got spooky after a while. But I do believe they shop was out of whatever it was since it was still bike season and a festival in town. then we saw the sign up close, still funny/freaky tho

I took a philosophy class and one of the things we focused on was "Is patriotism a virtue?" If my professor saw this, he'd probably slap me for getting it wrong, but here's the answer that I can remember:


A virtue is a character trait that adds to a person's moral worth. When a person has a particular virtue-- they are both obligated to act by it, and are aware that the obligation is presumptive.
Patriotism then, becomes a virtues only when the actions it leads to moral.......

Nevermind. At this point, he'd probably slap me.

Off of Drunkcyclist last night:

"Of course the people don't want war...that is understood. But voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That's easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
Hermann Goering
Nazi Leader in 1939 Germany

Originally posted by bomberz1qr20
Off of Drunkcyclist last night:

"Of course the people don't want war...that is understood. But voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That's easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
Hermann Goering
Nazi Leader in 1939 Germany

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I haven't looked any of 'em up, but I keep hearing of different books and essays written by the people in the current administration-- Paul Wolfowitz is one I can remember. Anyway, (I could easily be wrong here) he wrote a book in the early 90's about what our foreign policy/national goals should be, as far as securing our security and economic superiority, etc. Establishing a greater military presence in the Gulf area is step one... Afghanistan may have been on the list, dealing with Iraq, etc, etc, etc. Anyway, it said that American's wouldn't buy into such a foreign policy unless we suffered some sort of attack..... 9/11 for example. It's just lame to think that something like 9/11 would actually help achieve some policy setter's American Goals. Can't wait for that New American Century!! http://www.newamericancentury.org/!

Originally posted by patconnole
I took a philosophy class and one of the things we focused on was "Is patriotism a virtue?" If my professor saw this, he'd probably slap me for getting it wrong, but here's the answer that I can remember:

A virtue is a character trait that adds to a person's moral worth. When a person has a particular virtue-- they are both obligated to act by it, and are aware that the obligation is presumptive.
Patriotism then, becomes a virtues only when the actions it leads to moral.......

Nevermind. At this point, he'd probably slap me.

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Your memory isn't that bad. He would probably only frown at you.

Alasdair MacIntyre wrote an essay dissecting it has a virtue or a vice. Like most philosophy that goes beyond a simple quote, it leaves me lost.

Here's some philosophy for you. From Paul Gomberg's "patriotism is like racism". continued below....

from above

Originally posted by Damn True
Aldington used an apostrophe in the word "it's". Pfft, get your facts straight.

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Is this another one of your little jokes, or were you really expecting reproduction of poor grammar?

Originally posted by manimal
but doing something like turning your back on the flag......now that's heinous! there are some things that can be viewed as truly anti-american and some that are simply voicing opposition. there is nothing wrong with voicing opposition, that's how are country got to where it is today (whether that state is a good one is a different matter), but i will be the first to shout love it or leave it if catch someone defyling the very thing that symbolizes their freedom to be here.

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Okay what is disrepectful or defyling?

If a girl turning her back on the flag is heinous, what of those that fly the flag that have very bad intentions in their hearts, ie the Aryan Nation and the KKK? Talk about defyling the very thing the flag symbolizes. Everytime you see these folks you see them waving the flag and saluting (sometimes in a manner which I truly consider vile). Surely hijacking the flag by organizations that don't seem to have the slightest understanding of what it means is much worse. Should the flag be taken out of their hands?

I guess it is much easier to pick on a peaceful 21 year old girl.

Originally posted by DRB
Okay what is disrepectful or defyling?

If a girl turning her back on the flag is heinous, what of those that fly the flag that have very bad intentions in their hearts, ie the Aryan Nation and the KKK? Talk about defyling the very thing the flag symbolizes. Everytime you see these folks you see them waving the flag and saluting (sometimes in a manner which I truly consider vile). Surely hijacking the flag by organizations that don't seem to have the slightest understanding of what it means is much worse. Should the flag be taken out of their hands?

I guess it is much easier to pick on a peaceful 21 year old girl.

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i too hate that cowardly groups such as those hide behind the flag to promote their propoganda (i've personally been involved in several, uh...altercations, with members of those groups over my anti rebel flag stickers on my truck )
but in this case it's different. hiding behind the flag to promote prejudice ideals is heinous in it's own way...but it is allowed, just like turning your back on the flag is allowed. i like to look view the whole thing as a relationship between a parent and a teenager. i feel that turning your back on the flag is the same as some punk kid telling his parents that he's too good for them after they've given him everything he wanted his whole life. it all comes down to respect.
so i'll end with this. welcome to america, the land of the free. do as you will but remember that freedom isn't free and don't disrespect the symbol of those that payed the freedom bill.

Originally posted by manimal
i too hate that cowardly groups such as those hide behind the flag to promote their propoganda (i've personally been involved in several, uh...altercations, with members of those groups over my anti rebel flag stickers on my truck )
but in this case it's different. hiding behind the flag to promote prejudice ideals is heinous in it's own way...but it is allowed, just like turning your back on the flag is allowed. i like to look view the whole thing as a relationship between a parent and a teenager. i feel that turning your back on the flag is the same as some punk kid telling his parents that he's too good for them after they've given him everything he wanted his whole life. it all comes down to respect.
so i'll end with this. welcome to america, the land of the free. do as you will but remember that freedom isn't free and don't disrespect the symbol of those that payed the freedom bill.

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I'm sure that you didn't think I was talking about the Confederate Battle Flag when I talked about flying a flag by the groups I mentioned. As for being different you are 100% right but you left out the worse part. The two are not even comparable really. Hate mongering a$$holes do a 1000X greater damage by their "love" of the flag, then does one girl making a quite protest. But as you pointed out its all allowed.

Practically every teenager blows his or her parents off at one time or another. I'd say a whole lot worse than the quite protest that this girl is making. 99 times out of 100 the parents chalk it up to hormones and continue to accept them. I'm glad my parents (and most parents) don't take the love it or leave it attitude.

IMHO we do a greater disrespect to those that paid for our freedoms by limiting those freedoms.

Originally posted by DRB
I'm sure that you didn't think I was talking about the Confederate Battle Flag when I talked about flying a flag by the groups I mentioned. As for being different you are 100% right but you left out the worse part. The two are not even comparable really. Hate mongering a$$holes do a 1000X greater damage by their "love" of the flag, then does one girl making a quite protest. But as you pointed out its all allowed.

Practically every teenager blows his or her parents off at one time or another. I'd say a whole lot worse than the quite protest that this girl is making. 99 times out of 100 the parents chalk it up to hormones and continue to accept them. I'm glad my parents (and most parents) don't take the love it or leave it attitude.

IMHO we do a greater disrespect to those that paid for our freedoms by limiting those freedoms.

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I know that you weren't referring to the confederate flag, i was just making the association with those groups of a$$holes. and yes, those groups do a lot of damage to the symbol of the flag but they are also never taken seriously.

i'm not disagreeing with you that it is her right to turn her back on the flag, i'm simply pointing out that it was a BAD idea. you can't tell me that it wasn't disrespectful. i don't care if it is your right.....it's still going to piss off those of us who fight and have fought for that symbol of freedom.

Originally posted by manimal
I know that you weren't referring to the confederate flag, i was just making the association with those groups of a$$holes. and yes, those groups do a lot of damage to the symbol of the flag but they are also never taken seriously.

i'm not disagreeing with you that it is her right to turn her back on the flag, i'm simply pointing out that it was a BAD idea. you can't tell me that it wasn't disrespectful. i don't care if it is your right.....it's still going to piss off those of us who fight and have fought for that symbol of freedom.

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You live in the Carolinas and you don't think that a good number of folks take those groups seriously? Odd.

It didn't piss me off in the least and I'm just going to take a wild guess and figure that I have been a few more bad places in the world than you have. As I have said before it makes me realize that things are still working the way they are supposed to.

Originally posted by DRB
You live in the Carolinas and you don't think that a good number of folks take those groups seriously? Odd.

It didn't piss me off in the least and I'm just going to take a wild guess and figure that I have been a few more bad places in the world than you have. As I have said before it makes me realize that things are still working the way they are supposed to.

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i'm fairly new to the carolinas and i could give a big crap whether people care about what the friggin redneck losers of the world think. as far as you having been to worse places in the world than me.... uh.....you ever been shot at by a pissed off ethiopean?

i've been to A LOT of places and seen some bad stuff so i don't think pinning me as ignorant is a good argument.

Originally posted by manimal
pinning me as ignorant is a good argument.

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pinning your opposition as ignorant is ALWAYS a good argument. Even if it's not true, it works like a charm...

Personally that's what I always fall back on if I'm afraid I might lose.

Originally posted by ohio
pinning your opposition as ignorant is ALWAYS a good argument. Even if it's not true, it works like a charm...

Personally that's what I always fall back on if I'm afraid I might lose.

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DAD GUMMITT!! friggin' typing to fast for my brain! suppossed to read "not" a good argument!

man, these 12 hour shifts are killing me:

Originally posted by ohio
pinning your opposition as ignorant is ALWAYS a good argument. Even if it's not true, it works like a charm...

Personally that's what I always fall back on if I'm afraid I might lose.

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frigging ohio! i'm so tired that your post made me think that i had said "pinning me as ignorant is a good argument" and not "..so i don't think pinning me as ignorant is a good argument."

man i'm tired. so nevermind my last post.

and yes, it's much easier to label someone as ignorant that admit you may be wrong.........i know, i've done it

Originally posted by manimal
i'm fairly new to the carolinas and i could give a big crap whether people care about what the friggin redneck losers of the world think. as far as you having been to worse places in the world than me.... uh.....you ever been shot at by a pissed off ethiopean?

i've been to A LOT of places and seen some bad stuff so i don't think pinning me as ignorant is a good argument.

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Never said you were ignorant didn't even imply it.

But you said

it's still going to piss off those of us who fight and have fought for that symbol of freedom.

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The point I was attempting to make was that I am one of the US you mention and I ain't bothered by her one way or the other. I have seem greater disrepects to the flag than simply turning her back on it. To further my point, I indicated that my experiences are probably a little more wide spread than your own (which is still true). This in no way is meant to minimize or belittle your own. Or start a pissing contest. Or to mean that my opinion means any more than yours. Just to make a point that I was in fact in the US you mentioned and felt different than you indicated.

Is there a feeling of pride in most military folks? Like, "I'm serving my country, doing the right thing, pat myself on the back.....etc"

Or do most view it as a job they do?

Or both? This is my job, and my country!



And another question. For any of the military folks especially--- what are your thoughts on the wars of our lifetime (Vietnam to now). Are these wars up there in the "dying for your freedom" category? No disrespect.....

For me the feeling of "doing a job" vs "serving" was circumstantial.

When I was doing something routine like maintaining a helo or paperwork it was a job. However when involved in a mission of importance it was different. When you know that others (regardless if they are your aircrew, fellow servicemen, civilian rescuee's, or the populace at large) are depending upon you for their very lives or security you tend to regard what you are doing with a higher degree of importance. I never saw being a Technical Instructor in the semiconductor industry as being nearly as important as for instance searching for the downed Suffolk ANG helo crew during TPS. I never wanted to hear the alarm go off because I knew it meant someone, somewhere was potentially about to die. However, I LOVED flying SAR. I feel it is the most important thing I have ever done. I look at my logbook and the names of the 187 people whom I personally saved with more pride than I can express. Actually pride isn't even the right word. I guess it's more like being monumentally thankfull that God provided me with the ability to do what I did, and the opportunity to make a positive impact on those peoples lives, and every life that person touches.

Even similar missions carry different weights. A routine LE patrol was never as big a deal to me as an actual slash and burn mission, or chasing after runners in the Caribean.

IMO we have done a lot of good, and some bad over the last 40-odd years. I think we failed in our mission and did a tremendous dis-service to those who sacrificed their lives and to their families by not completeing the task in Viet-Nam and in Somalia. I believe that the mission in Somalia is by far the most rightous use of our military might in the last 50 years. Had we completed the mission the men who died would not have done so in vain. As it stands, their loss is tragic and without result.

As far as the validity of individual missions, most of them fall under the umbrella of being larger than the comprehension of me or most anyone for that matter. Obdviously, I am too young to fully grasp the enormity of all that was behind Viet-Nam. History books are not a reliable rescource, and depending upon who you talk to you can get 1000 different answers as to why it was important, folly, fuel for the military industrial complex etc etc.

Grenada: In principle, yes. But at the same time, why have so many other Caribean and Central/South American coup's happend without the necessity of our involvement? For that matter......hello, Castro?

Nicaraugua: In principle, yes. I think we can and should do anything in our power to halt illegal drug importation. But the back-story clouds the facts to such a degree as to totally confuse me and the issue as a whole.

Somalia: Yes. As I said, good mission. Good execution. Poor follow through. This is one of THE WORST marks on Clinton's record. His lack of spine......oh never mind. It's late and I don't feel like digging up those bad feelings right now.

Kuait/Iraq v1.0: Yes. However hindsight grants me the ability to disagree with the UN's demand that the coalition leave Hussein in power. At the time it seemed like the best option. Their assumption was that a disarmed (though they have failed to ensure that) Hussein was the lesser evil when faced with the question of who or what sort of regime might replace him.

I think all of us that are serving (thanks guys) or have served make a concious (I hope) agreement with ourselves that there are jobs that need to be done, they are often dangerous, sometimes deadly, and we may or may not fully understand their necessity. However they need to be done, and we have the aptitude, and fortitude to do them.

In regards to Somalia you said,

Had we completed the mission the men who died would not have done so in vain. As it stands, their loss is tragic and without result.

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Don't belittle them by making such a statement. I don't care what you mean, using "died in vain" while describing those men is WRONG. Those men did not die in vain. They died protecting their brothers under circumstances that normal folk would have been left a wimpering mass of crap. Soldiers that earn the Congressional Medal of Honor do not die in vain. You can blame whomever you wish but don't ever say those men died in vain.

Lastly, their loss would have been tragic no matter what.

Originally posted by DRB
In regards to Somalia you said,



Don't belittle them by making such a statement. I don't care what you mean, using "died in vain" while describing those men is WRONG. Those men did not die in vain. They died protecting their brothers under circumstances that normal folk would have been left a wimpering mass of crap. Soldiers that earn the Congressional Medal of Honor do not die in vain. You can blame whomever you wish but don't ever say those men died in vain.

Lastly, their loss would have been tragic no matter what.

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I 100% understand what you are saying. I have spent time with Michael Durant on two occasions and shared these same thoughts with him.

Had we completed the mission we would have achieved "X" at a cost of "Y". Of course you want as little or preferably no cost in the "Y" column but it is often unavoidable. As it stands now we have achieved nothing, at a cost of "Y". That IMO is the tragedy.

Originally posted by Damn True
I 100% understand what you are saying. I have spent time with Michael Durant on two occasions and shared these same thoughts with him.

Had we completed the mission we would have achieved "X" at a cost of "Y". Of course you want as little or preferably no cost in the "Y" column but it is often unavoidable. As it stands now we have achieved nothing, at a cost of "Y". That IMO is the tragedy.

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Y equals men 18 killed and 70+ wounded. Reducing them to some equation still does nothing for their memory. And on those days they achieved their mission, capturing the bad guys, and returning with them. Now the after was something else but that doesn't change what they accomplished nor diminish it. On that day they lived the Creed.

Durant is a good troop that got dealt an f'd up hand. If he shared your feelings I would be more than a little surprised as would many others.

Originally posted by patconnole
Is there a feeling of pride in most military folks? Like, "I'm serving my country, doing the right thing, pat myself on the back.....etc"

Or do most view it as a job they do?

Or both? This is my job, and my country!

And another question. For any of the military folks especially--- what are your thoughts on the wars of our lifetime (Vietnam to now). Are these wars up there in the "dying for your freedom" category? No disrespect.....

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This is tough to answer and I have been thinking about it for awhile. It was a job. One that lead me to sleep on the dirt 200+ nights a year and to too many places that grass doesn't grow. But also let me do some cool things as well. The blowing stuff up was always really cool. I wasn't a rah rah "Go America" kinda guy. I don't think that one time I ever thought of it as any of the things that you mentioned.

But for me it was always about two things. First the mission. From day one, always accomplish the mission. It became very engrained that nothing else was important except that. Missions were assigned for one reason and that was to be accomplished.

The other thing I did think a lot was don't embarrass or fail your country or my fellow soldiers thru either action or inaction.

As for the wars.....so much as been written and about them. One side says they were righteous the other side says the were the work of the devil. Me, as usual, its probably somewhere in the middle.

My dad was in Vietnam. That's about as close as I am to the military. He doesn't talk about it much at all (once every two years or so), but when he does, it's not the overall "It was good/bad...." but just specific stories that happened.


He wasn't drafted, but he knew his number was up anyway (literally), so he enlisted. Took the tests, scored "quite well," and was offered the chance to go to officer candidate school. That meant a two year commitment at least, instead of the 18 months or so he was gauranteed as a normal enlistee. There was a rumor that if you turn down the offer for OC school, you get stuck down in normal grunt infantry divisions. His logic was "It takes about 9 support staff for every infantry man, and about 1 in 10 infantry people are injured, and 1 in 10 of those is killed... so I've got a 1 in a 1000th chance of being killed".

The rumor turned out to be true, and he was injured! Math was on his side. Stay in school.


Ha, anyway.

Originally posted by patconnole
Is there a feeling of pride in most military folks? Like, "I'm serving my country, doing the right thing, pat myself on the back.....etc"

Or do most view it as a job they do?

Or both? This is my job, and my country!



And another question. For any of the military folks especially--- what are your thoughts on the wars of our lifetime (Vietnam to now). Are these wars up there in the "dying for your freedom" category? No disrespect.....

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good question. first, a little background as to why i enlisted in the first place. -short version- i was broke, i threw a rod in my motorcycle engine and couldn't afford to fix it thus eliminating my transportation to school and work. i hated the government and most of all authority. so i called up my marine recruiter and said "send me to boot camp". i was gone in 2 weeks.

so, my joining had no patriotic overtones but after 5 years of having the best and worst times of my life i'd have to say that there is quite a bit of pride involved in serving. there is a connection that every servicemember has, no matter which branch, that civilians will never experience.
did i agree with every mission i was a part of? i honestly don't know, but i had to trust my commanders that they were making good decisions.

so overall, i felt my time in the corps was more of job than anything, but now there is a deeply rooted feeling of dedication to my country that wasn't there before my time in the service.

-are any recent wars about "dying for your freedom"- that's a difficult question. some could argue that we won our freedom when we beat the english and that these recent wars are just to secure our "interest" in other parts of the world. well....i believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle of the anti-war rhetoric and the pro-war propoganda. there is a threat to our safety (read: freedom), how we take care of it....i'll leave that up to the guys who know more than me.

here's a little organizational pride ad

A-men to that, Remember, folks, the Patriot Act is there, and they see and hear a lot more than you think. Has anyone ever heard about something called LEIU(Law Enforcement intelligence Unit)? There are a lot of them out there. Go america

I'm loving this Thread, I just had to Subscribe.

Why....look at the dates.
It's a dead thread.

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BMXman said:

I agree....it's even worse when you live in a military town like San Diego....I don't love this country one bit but until I find a better this one one will do fine.....D

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wow...my situation has totally changed...lol

BMXman said:

wow...my situation has totally changed...lol

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hey WTF?

You live in canadia now?

marry me

or give me a daughter to marry or something