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what DH frame?...

saruti

Turbo Monkey
Oct 29, 2006
1,167
73
Israel
Hi
I want to change my DH bike.
I now run a SGS DH IRON HORSE 2004
It's a FSR link and I really love the way it handle anything.
I thought about the Sunday but I have friends with Sundays that said it feels like single pivot when braking/using the rear brake.
I had one run on a Sunday and it really feels bad when using the rear brake on braking bumps and on ruff terrain...
I want a light weight frame and I don't want it to feel like single pivot...
And I want it to pedal good.
What do you think?
How do you feel (Sunday owners) on your bike?
Is there someone who had a FSR bike and now has a Sunday? What do you think?
 

saruti

Turbo Monkey
Oct 29, 2006
1,167
73
Israel
Well...
I'll try the Sunday again.
But like I said before, friends who have Sundays say that a FSR really feels better....
I'm not a racer. I want to feel good on my bike. I have the SGS for 3 years now. And if it wasn't heavy and bob... I who'd keep it…
Do all the FSR bikes bob like that?
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,092
1,132
NC
FSR bikes are essentially low, rearward single pivots. They have slightly different braking characteristics but it's not significant.

Ignore your friends who "say that a FSR really feels better" and make a decision for yourself if you can ride the Sunday. It's stupid to go on what others say if you can have first hand experience. :)
 

sbabuser

Turbo Monkey
Dec 22, 2004
1,114
55
Golden, CO
Are you sure it was a Sunday you were test riding?
And if it was, then it most likely was not properly set up, either for you, or for your friends who claim the fsr works better.
It's not very lightweight, however. Spend the extra to get the factory frame is weight is very important to you.
 

Heath Sherratt

Turbo Monkey
Jun 17, 2004
1,871
0
In a healthy tension
Commencal has a very unique design where the bike is essentially a single pivot with a progressive link. Very unique ride and it sticks to the ground like nothing I have ever ridden. Lively and efficient travel, lightweight, aestheticaly gorgeous, ridden by Mann Caroline, Nico and Cedric along with several other rippers like Saladini, and Remy Absalon. Check em out. So hot right now.
 

Demomonkey

Monkey
Apr 27, 2005
857
0
Auckland New Zealand
Hi

Is there someone who had a FSR bike and now has a Sunday? What do you think?
I've owned long travel Single Pivot, FSR, VPP, and DW. The DW is the best suspension design I've ridden in 9 years of riding fully suspended mountainbikes.

FSR may be little more active on the brakes, but the DW certainly doesnt feel like a single pivot
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Commencal has a very unique design where the bike is essentially a single pivot with a progressive link. .
That's not really that unique though is it?

turner dhr
trek session 10
rocky mountain rmx
cannondale judge (!)
ventana cuervo
foes fly
foes mono
pretty much any kona-esqe rocker design

Or is there something else you meant?

I've been wanting to find one of these things to test ride.


And anyone who says sundays don't brake well is um..........wrong.
 

crazybiker300

Monkey
Sep 20, 2005
114
0
FSR bikes are essentially low, rearward single pivots. They have slightly different braking characteristics but it's not significant.

Ignore your friends who "say that a FSR really feels better" and make a decision for yourself if you can ride the Sunday. It's stupid to go on what others say if you can have first hand experience. :)
i cannot agree with you on the low single pivot thing. i have ridden single pivots and fsr bikes, along with an array of vpp, rocker, etc bikes. i currrently own both a single pivot, and an fsr bike, and have to say, they are nothing alike. fsr has a perfectly* straight axle path, wheras a single pivot has an arcing path, there is a significant difference in braking characteristics, pedal feedback etc between the two. on an fsr bike the chainline does not change, there is no noticeable brake jack, and pedaling and suspension movement have no affect on each other. all which are problems with nearly every singlepivot on the market.

also note that fsr has nothing to to with shock actuation, it is purely chainstay shape, and dropout pivot location.

that being said, the only way to find out what bike is right for you for sure is to try them out, although bike metrics will give you an idea of how the bike will feel before you testride it.

*near perfect, the axle path curves inward lightly at the very end of the stroke, but not enough to be noticeable.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,092
1,132
NC
fsr has a perfectly* straight axle path, wheras a single pivot has an arcing path <snip>

*near perfect, the axle path curves inward lightly at the very end of the stroke, but not enough to be noticeable.
No, it does not. You are wrong.

Sorry, there is no way around this, the FSR design has an axle path very similar to a low, rearward single pivot. You have been drawn in by Specialized's marketing department.
 

Zark

Hey little girl, do you want some candy?
Oct 18, 2001
6,254
7
Reno 911
No, it does not. You are wrong.

Sorry, there is no way around this, the FSR design has an axle path very similar to a low, rearward single pivot. You have been drawn in by Specialized's marketing department.
But, as you've admitted in previous threads there IS a difference brake interaction between the two.

Not all marketing hype, but quite a bit.

Question. Why do single pivots have more pedal interaction than FSR's? Esp. on trail bikes I notice this. A Heckler will extend the shock with every pedal stroke in the granny and an FSR bike will not. Problem seems to go away when the Heckler is in the big ring so.....?
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,092
1,132
NC
But, as you've admitted in previous threads there IS a difference brake interaction between the two.
I can't quantify that. It's not "magic" like the FSR addicts would have you believe - and I'll admit, I used to think it was much more significant than it is. Getting to ride one a little more gave me a more toned down impression of it, where there was a difference, but it wasn't as huge as I first thought. The quantifiable aspects are best left to the suspension gurus, anyway - I know a little, but not a lot, and try not to spout off on things I don't know :)

Question. Why do single pivots have more pedal interaction than FSR's? Esp. on trail bikes I notice this. A Heckler will extend the shock with every pedal stroke in the granny and an FSR bike will not. Problem seems to go away when the Heckler is in the big ring so.....?
Apples and oranges. A Heckler is a high, forward single pivot and has much more significant pedal interaction. The FSR design is similar to a low, rearward single pivot like a Turner DHR (as Jeremy already pointed out).
 

JRogers

talks too much
Mar 19, 2002
3,785
1
Claremont, CA
That's not really that unique though is it?

turner dhr
trek session 10
rocky mountain rmx
cannondale judge (!)
ventana cuervo
foes fly
foes mono
pretty much any kona-esqe rocker design

Or is there something else you meant?
Plus, the last two bikes I owned: Tomac 204 and Mountain Cycle 9.5... Linkage driven single pivot is a good design, though.
 

davep

Turbo Monkey
Jan 7, 2005
3,276
0
seattle
i cannot agree with you on the low single pivot thing. i have ridden single pivots and fsr bikes, along with an array of vpp, rocker, etc bikes. i currrently own both a single pivot, and an fsr bike, and have to say, they are nothing alike. fsr has a perfectly* straight axle path, wheras a single pivot has an arcing path, there is a significant difference in braking characteristics, pedal feedback etc between the two. on an fsr bike the chainline does not change, there is no noticeable brake jack, and pedaling and suspension movement have no affect on each other. all which are problems with nearly every singlepivot on the market.

also note that fsr has nothing to to with shock actuation, it is purely chainstay shape, and dropout pivot location.

that being said, the only way to find out what bike is right for you for sure is to try them out, although bike metrics will give you an idea of how the bike will feel before you testride it.

*near perfect, the axle path curves inward lightly at the very end of the stroke, but not enough to be noticeable.
Wow, not sure where to start.

IF the fsr had a straight axle path it would have MORE pedal interaction. IF it had no pedal interaction, it would have to have a bb concerntric single pivot.
Choose one to believe, you cannot have both.

Chainline is defined as the distance from the center of the front chainrings to the plane that vertically bisects the frame. This has NOTHING to do with any suspension design or lack there of.

Oh yea... ONLY lawill designs have 'brake jack' all other designs (that i am aware of) will exibit some sort of squat (at least have a squat force), the opposite of 'jack' due to brake forces.

Sorry that everyone is ripping you apart, but you do not know what you are talking about, and are claiming otherwise.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
But, as you've admitted in previous threads there IS a difference brake interaction between the two
I'm still not sold on this. I think axle path has more to do with decent braking. And I've owned specialized bikes since the 1800s.



Question. Why do single pivots have more pedal interaction than FSR's? Esp. on trail bikes I notice this. A Heckler will extend the shock with every pedal stroke in the granny and an FSR bike will not. Problem seems to go away when the Heckler is in the big ring so.....?
Well you're talking about a s.h.i.t.t.y single pivot bike. I can't stand high foreward pivots for that reason. My turner and something like a c-dale jekyl (same pivot location) pedal much better...........and squat a bit just like an fsr. Thowing all single pivots into one group is silly.
 

Zark

Hey little girl, do you want some candy?
Oct 18, 2001
6,254
7
Reno 911
I'm still not sold on this. I think axle path has more to do with decent braking. And I've owned specialized bikes since the 1800s.


Well you're talking about a s.h.i.t.t.y single pivot bike. I can't stand high foreward pivots for that reason. My turner and something like a c-dale jekyl (same pivot location) pedal much better...........and squat a bit just like an fsr. Thowing all single pivots into one group is silly.
Meh, I'm a victim of marketing, whateva ;)

Thanks for citing an example of Jekyl, I remember riding one and not having it lurch every pedal stroke.
 

davep

Turbo Monkey
Jan 7, 2005
3,276
0
seattle
I am with Mr Woo on the brake interaction as well.

I went from a foes fly (floater) to a DHR (no floater) and truely could not tell the difference in braking. I was certaily expecting a difference, but late summer A-Line-braking-bump-hell runs said otherwise. The shock action on the DHR was certainly better (read: curnutt = poop) so this could have contributed some...

In fact, there are some situations where some brake induced squat is preferable for me. A slow, brake-dragging, rock face roll over to drop is much more comfortable with the ass end of the bike wanting to sit down, rather than 'jack' due to weight transfer IMO.
 

sharkdh

Monkey
Feb 12, 2006
127
0
in the area
I love a good single pivot downhill bike.
Nothing accelerates faster in a straight line than a single pivot in my experience.
Single pivot has some remarkable characteristics too.
Feels good when the suspension stiffens up at 30mph braking into a fast, rutted corner leading into an off-camber chute.
It's makes for a very aggressive and predictable ride IMO.
but hey what do I know ive only ridden downhill for nearly a decade on 5 different frame designs.
 

davep

Turbo Monkey
Jan 7, 2005
3,276
0
seattle
I know...

It is all related though via the theory that single pivots have bad braking characteristics (vs. whatever else).
 

jcook90

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2006
1,211
1
Connecticut
how did this thread go from helping a guy decide what DH frame to get to a big discussion on suspension characteristics?

get an R9
 

Heath Sherratt

Turbo Monkey
Jun 17, 2004
1,871
0
In a healthy tension
The design behind the progressive link is very different in ride characteristics from one design to the next. A Turner rides VERY different from the Judge-not just because of the geo either. A scissor link reacts and actuates differently than a Foes link or a and asx swing link. Look up the research and development of the Commencal design and you will see what I mean by "they have a unique design". Progressive link single pivots may not be unique, but Commencals design is. That's what I meant-sorry for the miscommunication. H
 

crazybiker300

Monkey
Sep 20, 2005
114
0
No, it does not. You are wrong.

Sorry, there is no way around this, the FSR design has an axle path very similar to a low, rearward single pivot. You have been drawn in by Specialized's marketing department.

have you ever done a line tracing of an fsr bike? ive tested it on several fsr bikes, and in the normal range of travel it is almost straight. as i said it does curve inward toward the end. let me make sure you know i am talking about straight, not vertical. this curve is more evident in the bigger travel bikes, and it is more likely to seem like an arcing axle path. in comparison, a single pivot will have more of an arcing shape. I also do believe i made it clear that is not "perfect" at the bottom of my post, but it is much closer than any single pivot.
 

RJM

Monkey
May 18, 2005
258
0
on the rocks
I gotta chime in here just for sake of throwing another 'i've ridden it based' opinion out there.

The sunday is a fast bike no doubt. Riding it compared to the other two bikes above, made it feel like it had less travel. Call it efficient, call it poor tuning, whatever, thats just how it felt. Progressive tuned it two times with the lightest damping they could. To me, the dw link is just a glorified vpp design, similiar concept different design.


I'm getting an 07' Turner dhr because I know it will do everything well. Service is excellent, quality is ultra high, bling factor is up there, its a US company, with real us made parts, its lighter than before, lower, slacker, What else???even the shock mounting hardware will be of super high quality unlike the sunday i owned. what a nightmare.
 

eater

Monkey
Nov 25, 2005
476
20
Switzerland
take a cannondale judge single pivot with "3 stage Linkage"
top quallity and best garantie, very light. its a dream to run in any conditions.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,092
1,132
NC
have you ever done a line tracing of an fsr bike?
Yes.
...on several fsr bikes...it is almost straight. <snip>
in comparison, a single pivot will have more of an arcing shape.
Nope.

No getting around it. Sounds like your methodology is wrong if you've done the measurements. You don't have to take my word for it, plenty of professional engineers around here that will back me up, do a search.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
No getting around it. You don't have to take my word for it, plenty of professional engineers around here that will back me up, do a search.
I'm a crack smoking, male prostitute with an affinity for porcelain dolls with extra limbs and I'll back you up any day of the week.


crazybiker2000: it arcs. Grab your horst link with the shock off and see how much that thing actually pivots. It's almost nothing.