Now athletes can choose gender!

kinda besides the point but just as a FYI:

along with XX and XY, there exists XXY, XYY, XXX, XXYY or a combination in one individual (mosaicism); and who knows there might be more sex chromosome anomalies.

For anyone interested here's some #'s:

XXX: 1 in 1000 females
XYY: 1 in 1000 males
XXYY: 1 in 17000 males
XXY: 1 in from 500-1000 ( i know.. its kinda vague)

Also some people were mentioning the intersexual occurence rate at 4%, but if you read farther into the excerpt, she states that after further studies 1.7% would be a much more accurate estimate.

Sweet, I'm changing my birth cert:

sex: yes please
age: 16 (so i dont get busted on Dateline NBC

jk

this world is F'd up. people just need to grow some balls and realize that you can't have it your way sometimes.

First off, I don't think many DH riders are too concerned with dudes racing in different gender catagories and beating up on the ladies...That said, I'm with Transcend in that it's a silly and untennable argument to say "I'm female because I feel like a girl"...Hell, I feel like a "girl" all the time when I see a big steep drop in on Wild Cherry, but I can still write my name in the snow...

To me, it's like this:

Me - "Umm yeah, I want to race in the handicapped DH catagory"

Official - "Umm yeah, but you're not handicapped"

Me - "But I *feel* handicapped"

Official - "Uhh, but you have 20/20 vision, you can walk, you have all your appendages in tact, and while your mental faculties are perhaps somewhat diminished, you don't qualify as handicapped"

Me - "You're descriminating against me!"


Altho, after further consideration, that's probably a bad example in my case as I just remembered how blazing fast the guys in the off-road 4 wheelchairs were at Whistler...Guess I will just stick to being a mid-pack Expert racer...

Jimmy_Pop said:

this world is F'd up. people just need to grow some balls

Click to expand...

There may be some females out there who would like to do exactly that:biggrin:

Did Dumaresque even have a choice to race with the women or not? I remember hearing that she was not allowed to compete in the mens catagory any more.

Transcend said:

The problem isn't that it may happen, it is that it could potentially happen.

Click to expand...

Holy crap dude. I haven't seen a better illustration of paranoia in a long time. Are you worried about everything that could potentially happen?

i'll fooking race the chick class. in full drag. just to say i did.

gender and sex are synonymous.

they are determined by genetic complement.

XX is female.

XY is male.

an XY man can have his block and tackle cut off, he's still a man. he can have hormone therapy, he's still a man.

Michelle Dumaresq is a man with external female features and has a decided advantage in every athletic endeavor because men are biologically stronger and that arises because of the XY genetic complement. I know Michelle argues otherwise, but she has a biased interest in believing the untruth about her true genetic nature being the determinant.

A genetic man can believe himself a woman, can live as a woman. That doesn't change the fact that genetically he is a man.

You can put antlers on your dog, that doesn't make it a bull elk..

particle bored said:

gender and sex are synonymous.

they are determined by genetic complement.

XX is female.

XY is male.

an XY man can have his block and tackle cut off, he's still a man. he can have hormone therapy, he's still a man.

Michelle Dumaresq is a man with external female features and has a decided advantage in every athletic endeavor because men are biologically stronger and that arises because of the XY genetic complement. I know Michelle argues otherwise, but she has a biased interest in believing the untruth about her true genetic nature being the determinant.

A genetic man can believe himself a woman, can live as a woman. That doesn't change the fact that genetically he is a man.

You can put antlers on your dog, that doesn't make it a bull elk..

Click to expand...

AMEN....

I think we are getting TOO PC these days.... we dont want to make anyone feel bad or uncomfortable... haha and dont get me started on illegal immagration and all that crap... OMG talk about going to hell ina handbasket....

renegade999 said:

i'll fooking race the chick class. in full drag. just to say i did.

Click to expand...

you don't race....lthumbsdown:

Oh...forgot to add my non-PC take on MD.
That Dumersque is a guy...no if's and's or buts! Physically that "thing" is dominant in every physical way to anything I've ever seen that is a girl. It needs to go ride in the he-class. Adams apple , banana pouch and all!

bizutch said:

you don't race....lthumbsdown:

Click to expand...

dont get me started on your race career again biz. please.

Maybe we should now have 4 classes at each skill:

MM) being Male sex (at birth) Male gender (current)
MF) being Male sex (at birth) Female gender (current)
FF) being Female sex (at birth) Female gender (current)
FM) being Female sex (at birth) Male gender (current)

But of course you must consider that gender reassignment/orientation should be considered an unnatural modification/enhancement of the body which may/does cause an unatural performance adjustment in sport that the individual would not normaly benifit (or suffer) from through normal legal training and diet. If these gender reassigned/redefined individuals are allowed to compete they must be classified accordingly. To accept thier classification means you must recognize and provide other classifications to be fair to all, like general enhanced and non-enhanced classifications to permit those that use EPO, steriods........

I think we need to respect physical nature in physical sports. I don't care what you think you are now but if you born with the hardware to make babies your a man and you race with the guys. If you were born with the hardware to have babies your a girl and you race with the girls. If you choose to modify yourself because you have conflicting software you are unnaturaly enhanced and may not race until there are enough of your type of enhancement to warrent a seperate classification that covers you. It's a choice to enhance oneself or not the rules don't allow certain drugs because they unlevel the playing field from natural human performance. Hormone therapy and drugs to adjust to a different gender than ones sex is an enhancement that changes the playing field in a physicaly unnatural way, period.

regarding the strict sexual dimorphism that some people are adamant about:
what if a man naturally had a vagina without surgery (androgen insensitivy syndrome)?

or what if a woman naturally had a labia which fused and clitoris which became a penis like structure (CAH)?

Sex is biologically undifferentiated UNTIL certain hormones are introduced. The purpose of the Y chromosome is that it controls the glands which release hormones (TDF and ultimately androgens) which make a man.. a man. However what if the man did not have functioning androgen receptors and does not develop any masculinizing traits (the determining factor in dominant male performance), would he be considered a woman? or man?

Genetically he has a Y, yes; However the process which the Y chromosome starts off in making a male a male is not completed.. and masculinity with all its characteristics are not present. How do we go about this without committing a line drawing fallacy?

Welcome to the grey area.

Wow. It's amazing how in bending backwards to accomodate the "transgendered," liberals are going to do what conservatives have been trying to do for decades- destroy affirmative action and gender-equality measures. If you can choose your sex, then obviously the next step has to be choosing one's race (since race is an even more tenuous concept than sex, scientifically speaking). If one can choose their own race and sex, then any protections meant to encourage minority and woman business ownership become meaningless. Affirmative action becomes moot.

In terms of value to society as a whole, I'm not sure the rights of the "transgendered" to not feel uncomfortable in the few situations where their legal sex status is referenced trumps the social value of promoting equity in business and employment for 50% of the population.

How could the state of New York, which requires specific percentages of state contracts to go to women- and minority-owned businesses, continue to mandate that kind of thing when the system can be gamed? There's hundreds of millions of dollars at stake for some state contractors if a male owner were to get a doctor to argue that they're actually a woman. With real money on the line, it will happen, and the fallout will be ugly.

race in terms of how most people understand it (physical characteristics, geographic location, political boundaries), does not exist according to modern scientific understanding.

I'm too lazy to explain, however its common scientific knowledge, google it.

edited: .... Had a good article in my bookmarks regarding race:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID=00055DC8-3BAA-1FA8-BBAA83414B7F0000

Yeah no thanks, the day someone walks up to me and says their really the opposite sex of what they are. Thats the day I'll write them a check called reality and have them cash it ASAP.

OGRipper said:

Holy crap dude. I haven't seen a better illustration of paranoia in a long time. Are you worried about everything that could potentially happen?

Click to expand...

Mod edit: RM is getting pissed. Check PMs.

IMO, who cares. As far as the birth certificate says, I'm a firm believer that a person can be just born in the wrong body. They just don't wake up one morning and decide to have their nuts snipped off so they can be more competitive against the opposite sex.

While you enjoy focusing on the plumbing, the genetics still tell the story.

Your argument is a ruse, a red herring, a distraction instead of a clarification.

Please try your argument with someone who's a bit less intelligent.

SLanD3r said:

regarding the strict sexual dimorphism that some people are adamant about:
what if a man naturally had a vagina without surgery (androgen insensitivy syndrome)?

or what if a woman naturally had a labia which fused and clitoris which became a penis like structure (CAH)?

Sex is biologically undifferentiated UNTIL certain hormones are introduced. The purpose of the Y chromosome is that it controls the glands which release hormones (TDF and ultimately androgens) which make a man.. a man. However what if the man did not have functioning androgen receptors and does not develop any masculinizing traits (the determining factor in dominant male performance), would he be considered a woman? or man?

Genetically he has a Y, yes; However the process which the Y chromosome starts off in making a male a male is not completed.. and masculinity with all its characteristics are not present. How do we go about this without committing a line drawing fallacy?

Welcome to the grey area.

Click to expand...

Brian HCM#1 said:

I'm a firm believer that a person can be just born in the wrong body. They just don't wake up one morning and decide to have their nuts snipped off so they can be more competitive against the opposite sex.

Click to expand...

This part of your statement is a straw-man argument. Nobody's saying that anyone did what you have argued against.

Besides, what constitutes "being born in the wrong body," and how does the psychology of human sexual identity play into the mix?

jbogner said:

How could the state of New York, which requires specific percentages of state contracts to go to women- and minority-owned businesses, continue to mandate that kind of thing when the system can be gamed? There's hundreds of millions of dollars at stake for some state contractors if a male owner were to get a doctor to argue that they're actually a woman. With real money on the line, it will happen, and the fallout will be ugly.

Click to expand...

Do you really think people are going to change their sex to get some government contracts? Do you think a contract awarded to someone who did nothing other than changing their birth certificate would withstand a court challenge by someone with the correct qualifications? Do you a think a government entity would risk it?

I say again there is some serious paranoia happening here.

particle bored said:

This part of your statement is a straw-man argument. Nobody's saying that anyone did what you have argued against.

Besides, what constitutes "being born in the wrong body," and how does the psychology of human sexual identity play into the mix?

Click to expand...

So when a child is born with a penis, are you guaranteeing that child will end up with masculine traits?

particle bored:

please expand on how my explanation on the purpose of the Y chromosome is a distraction. My purpose was to show that their is enough variability in the sex organs to blur the lines between the typical dimorphic categorizations.

Also the explanation was to imply that sex hormones are soley responsible for sexual dimorphism; and when taking this into consideration, having a Y chromosome does not neccessitate a male (Quick explantion below but do a search on XY females, their occurence rate is approximately 1 out of 150,000).

Since you left so little information, I am a bit confused as to your intentions. Are you trying to state your disagreement with modern medical understanding? My guess is that you believe that XY people are genetically male no matter what the circumstances, however many XY "males" are deemed "female" by their physicians.

The Y chromosome itself is not an immediate cause for "maleness." Its the hormones that the Y chromosome allows for which lets men develop their characteristics which differentiate them from women. But this doesn't always happen the way its suppose to, which leads to XY females.

If you want I can give you the whole rundown on Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, the condition associated with XY females.

Also a quick interesting tidbit, it is estimated that 80% of runway models have this condition (XY female)


regarding "genetics tell the story"

what exactly do you mean because I don't recall saying genetics don't play into the situation.

Anyways, I sense a small degree of hostility, just wanted to let you know there is no need (if that's the case); or else I'll go get my big brother to beat you up

Certified Drunk said:

I bet NOBODY on ridemonkey has made a profit racing.

Click to expand...

I figure that much, my point only is, if Michelle is winning large amounts of money I can see why there might be a legit argument why she should not be in the the Pro women's class. However I've seen some recent results where Michelle's first place beat out a lot of the Pro men, not to mention the second place woman was right there behind her like by a second or so. By the look of it some of the pro men & women should be bunched into one class.

OGRipper said:

Do you really think people are going to change their sex to get some government contracts? Do you think a contract awarded to someone who did nothing other than changing their birth certificate would withstand a court challenge by someone with the correct qualifications? Do you a think a government entity would risk it?

I say again there is some serious paranoia happening here.

Click to expand...

It's not paranoia, but if this gender and race house of cards falls, my point is that a lot of *good* things go with it.

Legally speaking, if a man were to legally change his birth certificate to reflect the the female sex he claims, how could that *not* stand up in court? The whole point of allowing people to legally change their birth certificate is so that they would not be able to be distinguished as originally being a member of the opposite sex.

My argument is only to establish that a number of less than legitimate reasons are present for large numbers of people to game this proposed system.

Do we really want the state policing sex/gender, and making sure that those who go through this legal birth certificate change are actually living as women? That sounds pretty scary to me.

Brian HCM#1 said:

They just don't wake up one morning and decide to have their nuts snipped off so they can be more competitive against the opposite sex.

Click to expand...

Worked for me.

So when a child is born with a penis, are you guaranteeing that child will end up with masculine traits?

Click to expand...

I had been feeling robbed my whole life.

What else was I to do?

kidwoo said:

Worked for me.



I had been feeling robbed my whole life.

What else was I to do?

Click to expand...

That my friend is exactly why you are my hero :biggrin:

jbogner said:

Do we really want the state policing sex/gender, and making sure that those who go through this legal birth certificate change are actually living as women? That sounds pretty scary to me.

Click to expand...

Thanks for making my point. No, we don't want the government involved unless it's a government matter involving use of public funds. Otherwise it's none of our damn business! So people should be free to choose the sex they want designated on their certificate.

But the government contract issue is a separate matter. The rules for awarding government work can set specific parameters and exclusions. That is already the case, and there are already enough grey areas and disputes that birth certificates are not going to make a big impact.

BTW, not really a fan of preferential treatment anyway, but I'm a white dude so that's to be expected...

evilbob said:

Maybe we should now have 4 classes at each skill:

MM) being Male sex (at birth) Male gender (current)
MF) being Male sex (at birth) Female gender (current)
FF) being Female sex (at birth) Female gender (current)
FM) being Female sex (at birth) Male gender (current)

But of course you must consider that gender reassignment/orientation should be considered an unnatural modification/enhancement of the body which may/does cause an unatural performance adjustment in sport that the individual would not normaly benifit (or suffer) from through normal legal training and diet. If these gender reassigned/redefined individuals are allowed to compete they must be classified accordingly. To accept thier classification means you must recognize and provide other classifications to be fair to all, like general enhanced and non-enhanced classifications to permit those that use EPO, steriods........

I think we need to respect physical nature in physical sports. I don't care what you think you are now but if you born with the hardware to make babies your a man and you race with the guys. If you were born with the hardware to have babies your a girl and you race with the girls. If you choose to modify yourself because you have conflicting software you are unnaturaly enhanced and may not race until there are enough of your type of enhancement to warrent a seperate classification that covers you. It's a choice to enhance oneself or not the rules don't allow certain drugs because they unlevel the playing field from natural human performance. Hormone therapy and drugs to adjust to a different gender than ones sex is an enhancement that changes the playing field in a physicaly unnatural way, period.

Click to expand...

lol that's rather interesting. i can't imagine there being high competition in those classes. now...is this considered...performance enhancing to get a sex change?
edit:wow my other post disappeared. funny funny. interesting how stating fact against "athoritah!" figures around here get filtered lol so funny.

Brian HCM#1 said:

So when a child is born with a penis, are you guaranteeing that child will end up with masculine traits?

Click to expand...

Why are you asking me about an argument I've not made?

I said it's the genetic complement that matters, not the plumbing.

As to your specific question, which doesn't address my arguments -- A man with the world's most gigantic penis can act like the world's most dainty woman, and even can believe himself to be a woman. Does that answer your question adequately?

My return question to you remains unanswered, maybe you can comment on it this time. What component of "masculine traits" (as you call them) or other gender identity has to do with the psychology of human sexual identity, and what part of it is immutably genetic or otherwise biochemically determined?

SLanD3r,

No hostility to anything other than arguments that try to muddy the waters with subjectivity that isn't warranted.

Listen, in the world of scientific philosophers, there are those who bend things all the way to "what might be" and basically accept any hypothesis as reality until proven otherwise, and then there are those who follow the traditional scientific method and grow the knowledge base in that manner.

I'm talking about Popper vs Kuhn here.

Your ruse about "modern medical understanding" is another attempt to try to muddy the waters with subjectivity where it's not warranted.

Please try to explain more accurately your attempt to denigrate the fundamental genetic proposition that XX is female and XY is male. Expound on your reasons for saying that this fundamental proposition is erroneous. If you're not saying it's erroneous, then please explain why you referenced "modern medical understanding" and the notion of female runway models being XY in genetic complement.

If you don't answer, I'll send my dog to bite you. She's pretty good at changing people's plumbing given the chance. One of her attack strategies is to go for the crotch. That's after she bites your Achilles tendon clean through rendering you inable to run away!

Particle Bored:

Well, I guess I better reply before the dog is set loose; I like my plumbing the way it is

"Please try to explain more accurately your attempt to denigrate the fundamental genetic proposition that XX is female and XY is male. "

I didn't see myself as trying to deningrate this proposition, however, I guess in a certain light it could be considered so.

For the most part, the fact that XX is female and XY is male applies.
These "cases" I speak of, are for the most part a very small minority and are usually due to some genetic mutation. According to the first study I quoted (pg.2 of this thread I believe), the occurence rate of "intersexuals" was around 1.7%(comprising of all anatomical, hormonal, and chromosomal deviations from the dimorphic norm).

The explanation of the Y chromosome and how it ultimately leads to "maleness" was to illustrate how in some cases the Y chromosomes ultimate goal (to create a male) can fail (look at bottom of post for a brief description on how this may happen).

In cases like these how do we classify sex? Resultingly, we have to ask the question, what constitutes a male? Just the Y chromosome alone? a penis? testes? SRY gene? TDF? Nature has shown such variety in this aspect that it really is difficult to fit everything into the typical dimorphic mold.

XY females are a well known phenomenon (no this is not an attempt to muddy the waters, look it up, there is a plethora of reputable literature about this) and I would suggest a search on them, gonadal dysgenesis, swyer syndrome and on androgen insensitivity syndrome for more information (Let me reiterate doing some research! since any attempt of mine to acknowledge their existence is considered a ruse). I will however, give a brief summary below.

All this info which I have posted is actually pretty common and can be found in numerous current medical and biological books, textbooks, articles, journals etc... relating to the subject, hence the reference to modern medical understanding (if this does not constitute as modern medical understanding, please let me know what it takes); But don't take my word for it (somehow I don't think i have to worry about this...), go do some research and let me know what you find. Actually I would love for you to find some opposition, and show it to me.

After re-reading my previous posts I realize I did explain why a grey area would exist (you had me doubting myself) and have repeated myself more than once. However, if you find it that hard to believe, let me REITERATE again, do some research, it is all out there.

All my replies from here on out will be thru private messages, since this is mainly a discussion between us anyways.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Quick rundown on how the Y chromosome causes "maleness" and on a separate (but related) note: Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome,Swyers Syndrome and CAH.

a gene on the Y chromosome called SRY is responsible for producing an enzyme TDF (testisdetermining factor).

With the presence of the SRY gene (and of course TDF), testes can form, if SRY is not present ovaries form instead.
For Swyers Syndrome (also XY Female), complete gonadal dysgenesis could take place in which no testes ever form.

The testes produce androgens(testosterone) which are responsible for the masculinizing effects.

However in individuals with androgen insensitivy syndrome, a genetic mutuation occurs which prevents the forming of functioning androgen receptors.

Without the ability to process androgen, the external genitalia remains a womens although shallower than normal (androgen is responsible for penis formation). Female pattern for fat deposition and other female characteristics also exist.

However, the testes produce anti-mullerian hormones which as its name implies, prevents the formation of a mullerian system (internal female sex organs). As a result, the uterus, fallopian tubes, and inner 2/3rd of the vagina do not develop. For those with complete gonadal dysgenesis, no anti-mullerian hormones are produced (since testes are absent) so these internal femal sexual organs do develop.

In many cases, these individuals do not even know they have this condition until puberty (For those who have complete gonadal dysgenesis, they are indistinguishable from normal females internally and externally until puberty, where they fail to develop female secondary sex characteristics). The statement regarding XY females being runway models is to illustrate that XY females can be very beautiful.

On the flip side of things, women can actually form a penis. This condition is known as Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia(CAH). In this condition the adrenal glands produce high amounts of androgens instead of cortisol. What happens then is that the genital tubercle (which turns into a penis for men or clitoris for women depending on hormones) ends up looking more like a penis than a clitoris. Treatment for this is surgery at birth and lifelong hormone treatments.

Since I mentioned the genital tubercle above, I guess I should mention the genital folds also. In men this eventually becomes the scrotum, where as in girls this eventually becomes the labias (of course the determining factor being androgens).

****All this information falls within the traditional understanding of how sex is biologically established. There are newer studies that suggest other functions of the Y chromosome as well as other determining factors of sex; but we'll stick to the "traditional scientific method and grow the knowledge base in that manner."*****

Feel free to doublecheck all these facts. In fact, I insist you do. If you find any information from a reputable source that contradicts any of this, PLEASE point it out to me, I would love to read it.


P.S. It almost seems like im trying to rally support for some new fleeting theory; when in actuallity, this was part of the biology curriculum at my college years ago (my professor loved talking about genetic anomalies, so it may have been just him and not the curriculum).

FURTHER UPDATE:
Just so that you *might* heed the existence of XY females, here is a study from the International Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology ( I hope the source is reputable enough for you) on XY females (you'll need adobe acrobat reader, its in pdf), the study is how often XY females are diagnosed accurately.

http://www.medhelp.org/ais/PDFs/XY-Fem-BJOG-Oct-2005.PDF#search='XY Females'

Other relevant links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swyer_syndrome

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~chiniere/xy/females.html

http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/OMIMfind/gonad/OMIM-306100.htm

The list could go on forever, but I'll stop here.



Caught this while reading the previous posts:

"gender and sex are synonymous."

Regarding gender and sex, they are not necessarily synonymous. Some people use them interchangeably, however if you look at many of the new textbooks they make a distinct difference between the two. They agree with what Transcend stated earlier that sex is physical where as gender is determined by the "behavioral, cultural, psychological traits typically associated with a sex." (straight out of Merriam Webster).

The dictionary, however lists both defintions for sex and gender.