Do you guys think that with the advent of VPP,DW type link bikes(alot of anti-squat etc..) the horst link bike is dying?
Is horst dead?
- Thread starter rbx
- Start date
Specialized killed it. Why pay for that when you can make up your own link and say it's better than everyone elses? I'd love a horst link bike...but nobody makes them anymore.
Specialized's patent rights killed it off, and specialized doesn't make many decent horst bikes (exceptions of the enduro SX or whatever, that looks fun).
anti-squat cracks me up...DW should get a dollar everytime somebody says that, just for inventing a new marketing term
Specialized's patent rights killed it off, and specialized doesn't make many decent horst bikes (exceptions of the enduro SX or whatever, that looks fun).
anti-squat cracks me up...DW should get a dollar everytime somebody says that, just for inventing a new marketing term
Specialized "killed it" by trying to protect a patented design? Are you saying the bike business should be all about sharing? What does that have to do with the merits of the design?
I think it's still one of the better designs out there.
I think it's still one of the better designs out there.
There were/are only a few companies that do it well anyway.
Amusingly, specialized isn't one of them. Those things squat and jack just as much as a single pivot/kona design.
Amusingly, specialized isn't one of them. Those things squat and jack just as much as a single pivot/kona design.
Norco uses it on all their bikes.
Well, actually, I believe the reason why fewer manufacturers, notably Turner, no longer use the Horst link is that in the face of new suspension designs, specifically VPP and the DW-link, Specialized probably did not make the Horst link available enough, i.e., cheaper, to its partners.
While Specialized is never going away from its FSR, it is hard to market it as the best suspension design when no one else is using it. Back in the day when Intense used the Horst link, it added prestige to the design.
Maybe we're just interpreting the question differently. If by "dead" you mean not many people are using it, then yeah it's dying. But if by "dead" you mean it sucks as compared to newer designs, my opinion is that it's not so dead. It's just not as new.
That said, I likes me the vpp bikes.
I thought you switched over to Fisher?
Anyway, I think the popularity is waning but as a suspension design I am sure the tweaks Specialized have done over the years are improving the overall ride.
Hehe yea. I had an older sx as well and it didn't do much. I'm willing to bet its just on those bikes for sheer marketing and its function is very small.
Yup...Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this...I have been pretty underwhelmed by every long travel Spesh I've thrown a leg over...Altho, I have to admit, I do like the geo on several of their bikes...
you guys are beating a dead horst.
!
rolf
It's hard to market something that isn't wanted by anyone. People ride what other people like and ride. Specialized has no big racers, though they are big in the freeride world. They didn't kill the design with their bikes, they killed it by not allowing other people to use it cheaply enough. I think it's a great design, but in terms of overall use, yeah, it's dead compared to where it was 10 years ago. You could say the same about the DW link or VPP, but those are the new isht, and that's what people want. Those will die too when gearbox bikes comes out and that's the best thing. Then those will suck, and everybody will be riding horst links again.
And no, I don't think it sucks compared to new designs. I'd gladly ride a turner rfx horst, but nobody sells those for cheap enough for me to afford. Voodoo magic or not, I hate the way konas ride and much prefer a horst link.
...nah.
Some say he still lives on Tattoine near the Jawas and Sand People...
Actively pushing companies away (that are willing to pay) for the FSR patent was a dumb call on Spec. part......but so was every Demo/Big Hit paint job this year. Someone needs to lay the smackdown in Morgan Hill. Ya'll are screwin the pooch!
Titus and Ellsworth still use designs that fall under the patent.
Non-USA builders that can avoid paying the royalty use it too. (Norco, DeVinci, Knolly)
Though I accept a certain amount of it as marketing hype, there must be something to it for frame builders to continue to incorporate the HL into their designs.
Non-USA builders that can avoid paying the royalty use it too. (Norco, DeVinci, Knolly)
Though I accept a certain amount of it as marketing hype, there must be something to it for frame builders to continue to incorporate the HL into their designs.
Was that Lukes uncle?
As I've heard that Ellsworth dude took over the patent when Spec desided to drop it, and now he has a name of his own for it.
Isn't Knolly a bit different, the axle is placed at another hight or something?
DeVinci Frantic and Hectic looks really nice!!
Anti-squat isn't a new term. In other industries with things that use suspension, anti-squat has been around a long time. On my jeep for example, it's possible to have too much anti-squat and not enough squat.
Actually, that's not true. One merit of the FSR design is that they ACTUALLY ARE quite neutral under brakes - definitely no jack (ie extension - only lawwill designs tend to do that) and there would be a very minimal amount of squat, I know I can't feel it even if I look for it. The amount will change depending on the specific bike, my point of reference is a couple bighits and SGS's, but what I said applies to most FSR's in general.
A turner DHR on the other hand (for example) you can feel the squat on quite noticeably.
Whether squat is beneficial or not is another story, but if you're going to rag on a design, rag on it for something it actually does bad... pedalling is probably one of its less strong points for example.
The difference in Instant Center position between FSR models is huge! The Demos have long, nearly parallel links, whereas the enduro has a very short shock actuating link, that points to just in front of the bottom bracket. I fail to see how both "extremes" of the design can can coexist without questioning the design's integrity. Not that it even has any to begin with...
the reason the bikes (instant center) is so different is based on the bikes purpose. the linkage and pivot points on the shorter travel bikes are designed to be more efficient while the longer bikes are designed to have better traction and braking. all good suspension designers use similar ideas, dw and vpp bikes use different linkages and pivot points depending on the application of the bike. Specialized owns the patent on the horst pivot design and they should protect it, just like the dw link design is licensed to independent fabrications and the vpp design is licensed to intense. all designs have their own merit and the reason there are so many different designs are because of the varying riding styles. if everybody rode the same we would not have all of these designs and mtb bikes would be a lot more boring.
The extremes have to do with adapting the design to the intended purpose. Just look at SC's VPP line, similar phenomenon goes on there and a some of their models don't accomplish that much more than their single pivot models do.
Also gotta have some latest and greatest gimmick to sell'em
There's nothing wrong with FSR/Horst per se. In fact, there are some great bikes with Horst link suspension systems. One of the main problems is where to put the shock. On XC bikes with 1.5" stroke shocks it's not a big issue, but when you're dealing with a 9.5" eye-to-eye shock with a reservoir on a DH bike with a low standover, it means compromise. Look at IH SGS DH's and Intense M1's to see how frame designers have to work to accomodate that system. Short-link systems like VPP, Maestro, DW...etc are easier to build into a frame.
It's a new/unapplied term though. It's like saying your jeep has anti bob or pedal-induced lockout. It just...doesn't work. It amazes me that people are so into that. When does your bike squat, anyways? DW refers to it as a rearward weight shift. Who sits on their seat and puts enough torque on their wheel to accelerate that fast? Everyone I know stands up and leans forward to sprint, which outweighs any "anti-squat" feature. You don't weigh 3000lbs either, and you aren't doing 0-60 in 6 seconds. I'd love to see the calculations that actually prove that a standing, pedalling rider is applying enough torque to accelerate his bike to the point of creating a significant weight shift. I'd love to see a rider who doesn't automatically compensate for that without thinking too.
All "anti-squat" is is "moderated" pedal lockout. It reminds me of the whole four-bar debate.
Actually, I have heard that the patent that Specialized holds is up in not to much longer, and that Mr. Elsworth himself is the one asking gobs of money for licensing the technology. Just a rumor, anyone confirm? EDIT------> Heh, just read further up the post.....
Not so.........look at the differences in pivot location on the old amp bikes, ellsworth, intense, turner etc........they're not identical just because they fall under the FSR moniker.
When I said squat, I meant pedaling, not braking.....should have specified that. And yeah the only true "jack" I've ever felt is on those old lawills. I just use the term loosely to describe "not working as a suspension component." Do some climbing on one without a platform damped shock and just watch the rear end sink and stay there.
I've owned 4 specialized bikes and one norco...all FSRs. But I've ridden a bunch of other horst bikes like titus ellsworths, intense and turners.
Specialized bikes by far pedal the worst of all those in my opinion. Check out the old design patent and look how much lower the pivot used to be below the rear axle. Spec puts them almost horizontal now. That has more to do with pedaling but still.....
I always bought them because they're not afraid to build a bike with bottom bracket 2 inches off the ground. The suspension never felt any different than a single pivot with the same main pivot point as the big on on the spec bikes.
I've ridden quite a few demo 8s and I'll be damned if I can feel a significant difference in braking traction between them and my turner. Something worth noting though is that when I first started riding a DHR, I couldn't stand the way it chattered when on the brakes. I got rid of the romic and the difference was like riding another bike. You're a pretty light guy.......was the one you rode setup to be plush for you or setup with a bunch of pedaling platform?
I've ridden a demo with a swinger that felt like it just flat out locked up the rear end. That same bike got an upgrade with a dhx this year and with the lowest propedal setting felt much better.......but not any better than my turner.
Yeah should have mentioned pedalling. Makes sense then.
The DHR I rode was setup about right for me, 350lbs spring on DHX with zero propedal. If you think about it, you're going to notice brake squat more easily on a softer bike anyway, because obviously the rearend is going to squat EASIER if the spring/damping are softer. Either way, squat is going to move the shock into a harder part of its travel (both spring and damper wise on new position sensitive shocks like the DHX) and the ride is naturally going to be a little harsher. It also makes the bike (and therefore its COG) lower, so a little can be beneficial too.
WheelieMan - never bothered looking at the IC of the demo, I can see how it'd be quite different though. Obviously braking characteristics change with. The axle paths are also fairly different, I believe the bighit was actually more rearward than the 05/06 demo8 (via linkage). Be interesting to see the actual path on the 07 demos, given that they claim "better square edged bump absorbtion" etc.
The DHR I rode was setup about right for me, 350lbs spring on DHX with zero propedal. If you think about it, you're going to notice brake squat more easily on a softer bike anyway, because obviously the rearend is going to squat EASIER if the spring/damping are softer. Either way, squat is going to move the shock into a harder part of its travel (both spring and damper wise on new position sensitive shocks like the DHX) and the ride is naturally going to be a little harsher. It also makes the bike (and therefore its COG) lower, so a little can be beneficial too.
WheelieMan - never bothered looking at the IC of the demo, I can see how it'd be quite different though. Obviously braking characteristics change with. The axle paths are also fairly different, I believe the bighit was actually more rearward than the 05/06 demo8 (via linkage). Be interesting to see the actual path on the 07 demos, given that they claim "better square edged bump absorbtion" etc.
I weigh 165 and ride a 350lb spring for most dh riding. I'll throw a 400 on there for big dumb stuff like riding in virgin but the 350 is my main one. You weigh less than me no? I should also mention that I use an old vanilla dh (the remote resivoir one) with no platform damping.
I'll be honest.....when the suspension of a bike isn't working, be it from packing and staying there or just not moving.....your wheel is bouncing anyway and it doesn't really matter a whole bunch where it happens to be "stuck" in its travel. I doubt I could tell a difference because I'm more focused on my jittery eyesight at that point. A locked up rear end is a locked up rear end. How low you are when it bounces between chatters isn't really that relevant to me.
But I still hold to my claim that I don't think horst bikes (of any kind) brake any better than my dhr. Part of that I think is the fact that they both have fairly foreward moving axle paths....making a wheel that doesn't want to spin take the hits that much harder. In my mind that makes a harsher ride than a bike that wants to squat.. I've ridden dh versions of dares, demos, norcos and m1s so I should quantify my experience.
Some of the SEI racing guys need to chime in here since they all went from turners to demos.
Going from my SGS to toodles' undersprung Turner back to back on exactly the same track, I could not tell the difference in terms of braking (disclaimer: my shock is a manitou and thus sucks wang, toodles' is a DHX and is much smoother). You want a bike you can feel the braking squat on though, try one of those Konas with a crossover brake linkage, or a Balfa or any other high-pivot bike.
Rare as this may be, I'm with Kidwoo here - most bikes suck under heavy braking anyway, and I don't think low singlepivots are significantly different from FSR bikes, or anything else without much of a rearwards component of axle path.
If you wanna feel it squat grab a handful of rear brake on the street or other surface with higher traction... much easier to compare that way than on a loose track.
Gotta say it's not something i've had an issue with actually riding... was just trying to say that FSR's don't squat much under brakes, at least mine doesn't.
Gotta say it's not something i've had an issue with actually riding... was just trying to say that FSR's don't squat much under brakes, at least mine doesn't.
What is the benefit of the new Horst linkdesign of Azonic http://www.sicklines.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_path=action/racepictures/fontana_12807/evomo_fontana_EVO0011.JPG.html
probably not a huge deal, I'd bet it would ride a lot like the current crop of special ed designs...which might not be a bad thing.
I really really want to know how that bike rides...that 70 degree ST is glorious.
I really really want to know how that bike rides...that 70 degree ST is glorious.
Since Specialized's patent does not extend to Europe, the Horst link is used here quite a bit, i.e. in Germany. Whether the designs are better that their US counterparts is difficult to say since availability is somewhat localized and reviews by German bike magazines tend to be heavily biased.
Single pivot is terrible--no question about it. Yeah it's simple, but, if it doesn't work, what's the point? FSR works, and it works well. That's why companies like Banshee and Trek(for a while) paid specialized to use it. I've ridden many bikes, but nothing gives a better feel than FSR.
Single pivot is terrible, but FSR works well, eh?
Considering the two perform nearly identically, that's an interesting statement.
Companies paid to use it because the Horst link has been pushed so hard by Specialized that everyone is under the delusion that it's somehow magical.
Banshee and Trek's linkage bikes are linkage activated single pivot designs. They don't use the FSR and don't pay licensing fees...