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Tuning blackbox speedstack in boxxer wc/team

Cave Dweller

Cave Dweller

Monkey
May 6, 2003
993
0
miuan said:
Are you guys sure? I downloaded the manual and measuring the MCU unit lengths on the sketches bore different results (though it was like 1,5% pixels more with speedstack). Has anyone actually done it in the past? I plan to swith the 06 Ride and 07 Race units and pray for them to fit without respacing, both forks are already on their ways! :poster_oops:
Click to expand...
Yes, i put a team mcu into my 06 race, it drops straight in.
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
cavey... hmm on second thoughts, that thing does affect rebound a little. I could stretch the spring a little more, but fark i shouldn't have to be doing all this.
 
miuan

miuan

Monkey
Jan 12, 2007
395
0
Bratislava, Slovakia
Cave Dweller said:
Yes, i put a team mcu into my 06 race, it drops straight in.
Click to expand...
Well guys I have done that conversion. Both MCUs were same length. First of all, the MCU was neither dropping in, nor sliding in effortlessly at all, it was so sticky I had to force it quite a lot. When the top cap was fastened, I compressed the fork and heard an UGLY clap. My god, I said and taken the MCU apart again. I realized the rebound is dead, no damping. WTF does this mean? Why rebound? Moreover, one of the o-rings on the MCU (the middle one) is broken. Anyone encountered this? :imstupid:
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
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Haha you have to be gentle! Forcing = bad, on anything.

To get it in smoothly, lightly grease the o-rings with silicone grease, and then give everything (including the stanchion threaded area and just below that) a coating of oil to help them slide. Make sure the compression adjuster is fully open (counter-clockwise) to allow it to go down easier, and then gently push the cartridge in. Don't push it straight down, push down while rotating it round and round, and be gentle.

You can replace the o-rings by heading down to the bearing shop and getting them matched, or alternatively ordering them from rockshox. Not really critical for the damping side, so it doesn't matter which option you take.

As for the rebound, it's unrelated to the top compression cartridge. Did you refill with 150ml of oil? It may take a few pumps of the fork for the oil to settle in, shouldn't really though.
 
miuan

miuan

Monkey
Jan 12, 2007
395
0
Bratislava, Slovakia
Well I know the rebound should stay unaffected as it's much lower in the leg.. but I cycled it at least 20 times. My marz forks always start damping after 5-6 cycles so I am afraid something must have broken. Even when I used the silicone spray, it would still be too sticky to move which is a design flaw no matter how gentle you might me. Moreover, I did not let the oil flow away, just unscrewed the cap, took the MCU out and put the other one back. Oil could not have left the rebound. Do you think I can ride w/o the middle o-ring? I think the two other ones on each ends should be sufficient but I might be wrong.
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
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The compression end should be fine without that middle o-ring. I think it's just for support so that the plastic spring tube doesn't rub on the stanchion... but it doesn't move that much anyway, only 2-3mm

I suspect your rebound failing may be an unrelated issue. You may need to remove the rebound shaft/piston from the stanchion and inspect them.

My MC cartridge slides in pretty easily on the boxxer worldcup as long as you rotate it in. I don't think fatman here had any troubles either, and he's installed the cartridge in an 03 team and 05 race. Cave Dweller did say he had some trouble with his though, might be different from fork to fork, who knows.
 
Cave Dweller

Cave Dweller

Monkey
May 6, 2003
993
0
Drop straight in doesn't mean it drops straight in, it means it will work :pirate2:

Mine was a bit of a squeeze to get it. So far i have destroyed 3 o-rings taking the mcu in and out. Infact, the race MCU required a pair of vice grips on the top cap and twisting too and fro to get it out. A little grease goes a long way. And like udi said, don't force it in straight down, you need to rotate it in if its tight.

Rebound stopped working has nothing to do with the mcu as far as i can think of.
 
miuan

miuan

Monkey
Jan 12, 2007
395
0
Bratislava, Slovakia
Thanks guys, being a boxxer lame I'm happy that not only my o-ring broke :o) After it happened, I realized myself that I need to rotate the MCU and behave gently in order to save the rings, but still, it sucks even more to see that others have their MCUs slide without extra effort while we have to use special tools to make it move. If I set maximum lockout and force the handlebars, the fork clunks loudly when the lockout engages. I doubt this is normal as well, might be a design flaw and potential danger to the fork. Might also be the reason why my rebound stopped working, thought I know it is unlogical. But still, I never even touched to lower bolts other that setting rebound. Damn. I will let you know.
 
julian_dh

julian_dh

Monkey
Jan 10, 2005
813
0
miuan said:
Thanks guys, being a boxxer lame I'm happy that not only my o-ring broke :o) After it happened, I realized myself that I need to rotate the MCU and behave gently in order to save the rings, but still, it sucks even more to see that others have their MCUs slide without extra effort while we have to use special tools to make it move. If I set maximum lockout and force the handlebars, the fork clunks loudly when the lockout engages. I doubt this is normal as well, might be a design flaw and potential danger to the fork. Might also be the reason why my rebound stopped working, thought I know it is unlogical. But still, I never even touched to lower bolts other that setting rebound. Damn. I will let you know.
Click to expand...
they all clunk at 6or 7 clicks, as for the mcu not going in easily i just use a rubber dishwashing glove and dip the end part in oil also making sure your compression and floodgate are set to nil helps alot too.
 
T

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,577
0
Victoria
Nothing in my boxxer clunks... if it's doing that, sounds like your LSC plate is sticking open like Udi's was.

My MCU didn't go in "easily" as such, you do have to lube it and twist it in. If you do wreck the o-rings though, it doesn't make any real difference to how the fork works (other than letting a TINY amount of oil bypass the damper).
 
miuan

miuan

Monkey
Jan 12, 2007
395
0
Bratislava, Slovakia
I finally took the fork apart and realized what made that huge clunk. The rebound seal head retaining snap ring at the bottom of the rebound assembly was floating freely around the rebound piston, totally disengaged from the stanchion, together with a delicate round piece of stripped aluminium from the place where the ring engaged from the stanchion. Luckily, the rebound piston was not scratched. I will get it back to its place and I hope it does not get away again, but this gets me pissed off as the fork was brand new and it broke before the 1st ride and without my fault (this time :imstupid:). But the compression assembly is OK, apart from the broken middle o-ring. At least.
 
J

Joe

Monkey
Dec 5, 2003
104
0
HoyHoy
Can I get some advice on oil heights and weight? I have teams. I'm about 70kg/170kgs

Basically i didnt have any adjustents due to some thicko using a o ring (too thick) under the blue adjuster. So today i got rid of that O ring and put an o ring under the floodgate. Now i have the clicks.

the top cap had wound itself off aswell so the clicks would go as i screwed it in.

But adjusting the MoCo seems to do nothing so maybe there isnt enough oil? I'd like to have a bit less dive so i presume i adjust the floodgate. Is that right?

Ive tried to read this topic but it has left me more confused then when i started out.

Thanks alot!
 
S

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
If adjusting the low speed doesn't do anything (it should make a HUGE difference) then something is wrong with it. It's possible that your LSC plate is sticking open like Udi mentioned, or you don't have enough oil. iirc you need 150mL of oil in the damper (regardless of rider size/weight); you can use the lowers to tune bottom out resistance by adjusting where you set them when you put the foot bolts in. The reason for this is that the air trapped in the lowers is effectively your ramp-up; what you should start off with is compressing the damper leg halfway (4"/100mm) before you put the footbolts in, and if you want more bottom out resistance then compress the damper leg LESS before you do the footbolt up, if you want less ramp up then compress the leg further before you do the bolt up.

BTW if you want to reduce dive you need to be using the low speed (blue knob) adjuster. The floodgate (gold knob) is to set your low/high blowoff threshold, and affects your HSC somewhat.
 
julian_dh

julian_dh

Monkey
Jan 10, 2005
813
0
CBJ said:
No clunki clunki in my Boxxer WC either at any clicks.
Click to expand...
so your saying at 6 or 7 clicks theres not a serious almost platform? ive ridden maby 3 different ones and bounced at least 7 and they all seem to hit a hard wall at 6 or 7 clicks, about 1 inch into the travel, thats what im calling a clunk.
 
J

Joe

Monkey
Dec 5, 2003
104
0
HoyHoy
Ah thanks, will have a play later.

And in a riding situation, what will adjusting the blow off do? does that mean bottom out resistance?
 
S

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
No, it adjusts at what threshold the low speed port will open up to create (part of) the high speed curve. Basically sets the difference between low speed and high speed damping. For example, if you run your setup like Udi, with 6 to 7 clicks of LSC but the floodgate all the way backed off (or very close to), you will have tonnes of LSC that will very easily "blow off" into the lighter-damped (relatively speaking) high speed range. The easiest way to work out what it does is to crank the LSC all the way up (so it's locked out or close to) and play with the floodgate; you'll see that when its' fully backed out it's very easy to blow through, but if you wind it in a bit it starts to require a pretty significant hit to overcome the lockout/LSC.
 
J

Joe

Monkey
Dec 5, 2003
104
0
HoyHoy
Ive changed the oil. Added 150ml of 5 wt and the adjustment (LSC) make no difference. I had the moco thing out and i could see the silver plate at the end moving and i think it is lined up ok.

Any ideas as to why the adjustments dont do anything?
 
Cave Dweller

Cave Dweller

Monkey
May 6, 2003
993
0
Joe said:
Ive changed the oil. Added 150ml of 5 wt and the adjustment (LSC) make no difference. I had the moco thing out and i could see the silver plate at the end moving and i think it is lined up ok.

Any ideas as to why the adjustments dont do anything?
Click to expand...
Were the o-rings intact on the mcu? If there was no or damaged o-rings maybe the oil is bypassing the LSC?

Can't think of anything else if the oil is the right height and the base plate is not jammed.
 
J

Joe

Monkey
Dec 5, 2003
104
0
HoyHoy
I think the seals are ok. The middle one isnt tight but its intact, when i pull the cart out it gets unseated. But the bottom ones fine.
Im gonna try and see if i can make one work with the two mocos i have. thanks for the help.
 
Cave Dweller

Cave Dweller

Monkey
May 6, 2003
993
0
Joe said:
I think the seals are ok. The middle one isnt tight but its intact, when i pull the cart out it gets unseated. But the bottom ones fine.
Im gonna try and see if i can make one work with the two mocos i have. thanks for the help.
Click to expand...
How much oil was there in the lowers when you pull them off? Maybe the seal head at the base of the leg is leaking and the oil is flowing into the bottom of the lowers, meaning the LSC would have no effect?? Clutching at straws here.........
 
miuan

miuan

Monkey
Jan 12, 2007
395
0
Bratislava, Slovakia
Hi guys, after replacing my 06 Ride's MCU with one from 07 Race, do you think I can put a 8'' coil inside, instead of the stock 7'' U-turn one, to make it literally a Race? I'd like to have full 8'' for pure DH instead of adjustable 5-7'' for FR... are the uppers long enough? please advise.
 
S

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
Yeah, the uppers are the same length in all the straight-wall Boxxers (ie 2003 to current model). I'm running one 04 leg, one 05 leg, 05 lowers and 06 internals...

Why did you replace the Moco unit though? Didn't the Ride one have a Floodgate adjuster? If not, it's the same as the Race anyway. You may need a new compression rod (ie the bit that the spring sits on, nothing to do with the damper) and probably a new top cap to go with the 8" spring, but I'm not sure of that.
 
miuan

miuan

Monkey
Jan 12, 2007
395
0
Bratislava, Slovakia
Socket said:
Why did you replace the Moco unit though? Didn't the Ride one have a Floodgate adjuster? If not, it's the same as the Race anyway. You may need a new compression rod (ie the bit that the spring sits on, nothing to do with the damper) and probably a new top cap to go with the 8" spring, but I'm not sure of that.
Click to expand...
I got a very cheap 06 Ride and 07 Race. I swapped the MCUs to create a 07 Team and a 06 U-turn Race. Next step I wanted to get rid of U-turn (which will be unused anyway) and gain full 8' travel on the Race and pass it to a friend of mine (he will not miss the compression settings of a Team). Inbetween I decided to keep my old fork and sell the new Team because I had to pay out my mortgage. I will probably wait for new Mission Control Boxxers of maybe for MZ to finally put all their dampers (R, C and X) into one leg and the doppio air in the other. Sorry for bugging guys and thanks for your advice. :)
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
You know your life is going nowhere fast when you have to sell your boxxer team and rig together a boxxer race to pay your mortage....

haha, just kidding - but seriously, keep the team!
 
miuan

miuan

Monkey
Jan 12, 2007
395
0
Bratislava, Slovakia
I kept my Shiver on my DH rig, she still works like on the day 1. I also kept my u-turn race and put it on my Giant AC air. Hope this will be a good combo. Let us see what stuff RS&MZ plan for 2008 and hopefully I will be ready to afford it...
 
MobileChernobyl

MobileChernobyl

Monkey
Apr 16, 2006
392
0
Golden, CO
Does anyone know if the honed stanction on the world cup is nessesary for a team to worldcup conversion?

Like does anyone have some hardcore info on why it would be bad or impossible to use the stock race stanction (its brand new, no rides) to seal air in. Like any major differences - i.e. ID's of both, coatings applyed, or some kind of rockshox marketing magic?

I'm pretty familar with how the solo air assembly is layen out in the worldcup and i'm looking to machine my own main (positive) chamber seal, hoping the top out spring can hold its own, but if not i have a plan to equalize the pressures and take the load off the top out spring.

If i can do this and the seal holds air (for at least a week) i will have essentially bought a 2006 boxxer world cup for $360 brand new off of ebay (thats how much i bought this boxxer race new off of ebay for). I already know how to adjust the floodgate internally (thanks to UDI) and according to this thread, someone of my weight will be fine sans speedstack. So i hope you can see where im coming from with this little project lol.
 
S

Spokompton

Monkey
May 15, 2005
321
0
Spokane WA
Cave Dweller said:
Rebound stopped working has nothing to do with the mcu as far as i can think of.
Click to expand...
I think it actually does effect the rebound. Doesn't the rebound rely on the MCU filling up with oil and pressurizing a bit into the air volume? Then doesn't the pressure help squeeze the oil out on rebound in a controlled manner?

OIl leaking around the MCU seal might create turbulance, inconsistancy, etc.
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Nope, the rebound piston is constantly submerged.

The piston has nothing to do with the oil moving into the MCU, it's the volume the piston rod takes up that displaces the oil that moves up into the MCU on compression.

On rebound, the oil falls back through the one-way valve as the piston rod moves back out.
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
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I had someone else PM me about this, so i'll just post up my reply (you can pick out the relevant bits). If you are passing around the idea, a little credit would be much appreciated. :)

I might make a pictorial guide sometime when I get the chance.

Udi said:
The adjustable floodgate for the boxxer race was my idea, but it's just internally adjustable, not externally.

IMO there is no need to adjust it on the fly, it's very much a set and forget adjustment. If you did want to make it external, it'd probably be a pretty big hassle and not worth the effort, unless you are a pretty serious tinkerer with a lot of time to burn.

I'm assuming you've read the long thread about it, the floodgate simply controls the point at which the [regressive] high-speed compression curve begins, and on the race that point is set by default to very late (so at high LSC levels it's harsh and very hard to blowoff).

An M5 nyloc nut on the threaded shaft (after you remove the LSC assembly on the bottom of the motion control unit) will allow you to set the point where the silver plate will stop moving up with the blue piston assembly (as the piston compresses the black plastic spring tube).

You'll have to guess and check to get it right, but as a starting point, set the nut (you'll have to experiment) so that when you install the LSC assembly, the silver plate sits about 1mm down (or "open") from the blue piston.

Now this isn't the setting you want (as it would be like the damper starting already blown off), but once you've got it sitting out 1mm, remove the LSC assembly and wind the M5 nut IN a further 2-3 turns, and then reinstall the LSC assy. Should be a good starting point.

Test it out and change again if neccessary.
Udi
Click to expand...
 
Cave Dweller

Cave Dweller

Monkey
May 6, 2003
993
0
Udi said:
I had someone else PM me about this, so i'll just post up my reply (you can pick out the relevant bits). If you are passing around the idea, a little credit would be much appreciated. :)

I might make a pictorial guide sometime when I get the chance.
Click to expand...
Cool idea udi.
 
miuan

miuan

Monkey
Jan 12, 2007
395
0
Bratislava, Slovakia
I tried to do what Udi proposed. The first thing to be aware of is, after you unscrew and pull out the whole compression unit out of the right leg (it is about 8in long), you will also have to unscrew the drilled plastic tube from the top cap. Be careful, the thread is plastic (fragile) and REVERSE so you will have to undo it clockwise. Once you install the nyloc nut on the blue threaded piston, the range of internal adjustment is really huge, much more than with my externally adjustable Team. If you are a Marz guy and like no damping for maximum comfort, it is no problem (unlike with the Team), but you may lose the lockout function if you leave the floodgate too much open. This is an issue for me as I have a U-Turn race/ride and climb with it a lot. I will take my Race MCU to the next bikepark session (together with my Team) and will try to tune it to my liking.
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
If you own both a team/wc and race damper it's actually very simple, as you can accurately measure the position of the floodgate (ie your stopper - in the team/wc it is the blue aluminium hex nut, in the race it will be your freshly installed nyloc nut).

With the floodgate adjusted correctly on your team/wc damper (5-8 clicks in from full out would be my rough recommendation), you can measure from the bottom of the blue hex nut, to say the top of the pressure seal seat (or any part near the top that is a constant between the two cartridges really).... then adjust your nyloc nut in the race damper to match that height.
 
civilian

civilian

Chimp
Aug 16, 2003
65
0
Udi said:
With the floodgate adjusted correctly on your team/wc damper (5-8 clicks in from full out would be my rough recommendation), you can measure from the bottom of the blue hex nut, to say the top of the pressure seal seat (or any part near the top that is a constant between the two cartridges really).... then adjust your nyloc nut in the race damper to match that height.
Click to expand...
If anyone actually does that measurement could you please post the appropriate length? I have been thinking of getting a race because the price is so good but have been worried about the lack of floodgate adjustment. If this mod actually works I may just pull the trigger on a new Race. Any feedback from someone who has ridden this mod would be appreciated too.
 
miuan

miuan

Monkey
Jan 12, 2007
395
0
Bratislava, Slovakia
For a very comfortable plush ride I would suggest 11-12 visible complete threads at the end of blue rod. The more threads you leave the stiffer your fork will be. This may of course vary from fork to fork but mine looks like this. It is the 2007 model if that matters.
 
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