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double butted v's straight guage spokes ?

jungle

Monkey
Jan 11, 2006
357
0
is there any advantage or disadvantage besides weight difference to going to double butted 2.0/1.8 or straight guage 2.0 spokes ?

i can get the same wheelset with the double butted or straight guage spokes, for strength and durability which spokes would be best to go
with ?
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
i can get the same wheelset with the double butted or straight guage spokes, for strength and durability which spokes would be best to go
with ?
straight gauge builds a stronger wheel

If you disagree you're wrong


WRONG!!!!:D


The theory behind db spokes is that they allow more flex in the wheel and provide more give to avoid wrecking the rim. From mine and others I trust experience, just building a circular rock for a wheel results in one you have to true up less. When it fails it does so catastrophically but in 5 years of riding dh, I've only killed two wheels with SG spokes. Every one I built with DB spokes is long dead.

I run DBs on my xc bikes (well I did before I started ridng crossmax) and SG on my dh bike. Seems to work better
 

Zark

Hey little girl, do you want some candy?
Oct 18, 2001
6,254
7
Reno 911
Straight guage are stiffer, so much so they snap at the head instead of flexing....
DB spokes are actually stronger, but you need to keep up on wheel tension more often. DB spokes tend to "wind up" more during the build.

My latest wheelset is on 2.0-1.8 dt spokes
 

Brian HCM#1

MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!
Sep 7, 2001
32,119
378
Bay Area, California
My DH bike sits in the garage for most of the last year and never had a problem with double butted spokes.



I've built/ridden wheels with both, and it seems the straight gauge keeps the wheel a bit more true through rough DH'n.
 

S.K.C.

Turbo Monkey
Feb 28, 2005
4,096
25
Pa. / North Jersey
Here is part of a post by some guy on here called the "Mechanic" - he seemed to know a lot about wheel building, and reflects a lot of what 'Woo was saying:

DB spokes are harder to true, because a thinner mid section will "wind-up" more than a thicker one. This can be dealt with by a good wheel builder.

Where do almost ALL spokes fail? At the elbow. Not the mid section, unless you crash. (and most any spokes will be toast in a good sideways crash.) Elbows on a 14g spoke and a 14/15g spoke are the same.

A spoke fails at the elbow from insufficient tension. This is cumulative, and will happen over time, at any time. Ever broke a spoke? This is from a build up of fatigue at the elbow of the spoke. A spoke at low tension will go through a greater range of fatigue cycles, and fail early. (think: bending a paper clip back and forth) A spoke at proper tension can resist these fatigue cycles (try to bend that paper clip if it's in very high tension)

Optimum tension is determined by over all rim strength. The more a rim can resist failing at the spoke hole, the greater the over-all tension can be.

Wanna save your wheels? Have them built by a good builder, and KEEP UP ON THE TENSION! Have them re-tensioned and trued after they are broken in, and give them some TLC every once in awhile.

I have always been told that DB spokes have a higher tensile strength because they are drawn (not rolled like 14g), but that 14g is stiffer b/c they are thicker.

Based on this info, I drew the conclusion that 14g is better for dh wheels only because the stiffer wheel will keep the stress more evenly distributed across the rim, making it stronger.
 

S.K.C.

Turbo Monkey
Feb 28, 2005
4,096
25
Pa. / North Jersey
Well...

Actually:

The Mechanic: DB spokes are better, period. They are drawn (swaged) through a die, this work hardens them. They are therefore stronger AND lighter.

This is the same thing that makes a cold-forged crank or stem so desirable.
That said, see my above post... DB may be stronger/lighter, but it just isn't well suited for DH use.

I would say that SG is definitely better for DH like what Woo and that Mechanic guy said.
 

Zutroy

Turbo Monkey
Dec 9, 2004
2,443
0
Ventura,CA
I haven't broken a spoke in the last 3 years except for the two wheels that I destroyed.


So a length of steel that has less material in the middle is stronger?

Come on man.....think about that.;)
Actually the Tensile Strength on a DB is higher than a straight gauge.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Actually the Tensile Strength on a DB is higher than a straight gauge.
But with greater deformation before failure no? I'm thinking in terms of a fixed structure (a wheel). And within that deformation the rim is given room to flex.

That's why I mentioned the round rock thing for a wheel.

I build my dh wheels really stiff and tight and try to keep them that way. They've been much straighter for much longer since I started using straight gage spokes.

Like I said before, I understand the theory......but my experience differs.

I even got acadian drinking my kool aid:D
 

Zark

Hey little girl, do you want some candy?
Oct 18, 2001
6,254
7
Reno 911
I haven't broken a spoke in the last 3 years except for the two wheels that I destroyed.


So a length of steel that has less material in the middle is stronger?

Come on man.....think about that.;)
If that material reduction induces flex that puts less force on the bend they snap at, then yes, I believe its stronger!

On my last wheel (xt hub/321/straight 14g) I was snapping spokes on a monthly basis. I kept tension up on my wheels too, so I was pretty annoyed.

My new wheelset is too new to say if its definitively stronger, but this is the feedback I've gotten from many wheelbuilders with more knowledgeable than myself.

The DB spokes do not keep the tension as well in my experience, so the wheels require more truing/tesnioning.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
If that material reduction induces flex that puts less force on the bend they snap at, then yes, I believe its stronger!
True.....and that's the theory behind them.

It just hasn't panned out for me on dh wheels in the past.

I've still got wheels built up in 1999 that are going strong.......built by the guy who got me using straight gauge initially.

They're on 521s so I use them dirtjumping but I've still never even broken a spoke on them......and I used them for dh for 2 years way back when.

Just out of curiosity, what brand spoke and rim are you using?

There's a reason my first post came out like it did. This is an argument I only win with people who build wheels the same way I do.;)

But I have had a few converts:D
 

Zark

Hey little girl, do you want some candy?
Oct 18, 2001
6,254
7
Reno 911
True.....and that's the theory behind them.

It just hasn't panned out for me on dh wheels in the past.

I've still got wheels built up in 1999 that are going strong.......built by the guy who got me using straight gauge initially.

They're on 521s so I use them dirtjumping but I've still never even broken a spoke on them......and I used them for dh for 2 years way back when.

Just out of curiosity, what brand spoke and rim are you using?
I'm using dt 2.0-1.8 competitions on a Mavic 729 (hadley hubs)

My spoke snapping wheel was weird. Totally straight, couple dents, but I'd snap spokes so often I had to get new rim tape because it lost its stickyness. Last year I snapped 10 spokes out of that wheel, only one was in the middle of the spoke.
 

Sir_Crackien

Turbo Monkey
Feb 7, 2004
2,051
0
alex. va. usa.
Zutroy about the strength that is what the spoke is rated at not necessarily the breaking point. go look at sapim's website and they will tell you that their strongest spoke is their thinnest but go to canecreeks website and they will tell you that their strongest wheel uses sapim straight gauge spoke.

also i i have more problems with DB spoke and straight gauge. i have built many wheel for myself and other people. the DB one come out of true much more and don't last nearly as long. also i mainly build wheels for larger people so i have to know how to build the strongest wheel going while keeping the weight down as will. from my experience do not save weight in the spokes they are the element that actually hold the wheel in the shape that it is in. the rim is by far the best place to best place to loose weight. the rim itself is one of the weakest parts in the wheel.
 

Rip

Mr. Excitement
Feb 3, 2002
7,327
1
Over there somewhere.
I have been using Wheelsmith DB14's on my wheels for 4 years now, and really haven't had a single rim/spoke failure. I just feel that it depends on the following:

What rim/hub combo your using
Which spoke count/lacing pattern is going to be used
who built the wheel.


I'm curious to try a mixture between a straight guage and double butted and to see how they last in the long run.
 

Tootrikky

Monkey
Jul 31, 2003
772
0
Mount Vernon
Actually the Tensile Strength on a DB is higher than a straight gauge.
Are you sure Tensile strength is the term you wanted to use? The most important structural improvement a Swaged (butted) spoke has over a staight gauge spoke in terms of a wheel is elasticity or flex, as almost all spokes fail at the elbows and threads due to fatigue failures. Swaging spokes diverts stresses concentrated at these areas on a straight gauge spoke to the midsection of the spoke thereby increasing spoke life. Yes I am pretty much plagerizing Jobst Brandt's the Bicycle Wheel so I might as well throw in this other tid bit as well..."Straight Gauge spokes greater resistance to twist makes them easier to adjust then swaged spokes, and their greater stiffness reduces elastic interactions between spokes simplifying truing"
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I'm using dt 2.0-1.8 competitions on a Mavic 729 (hadley hubs)

My spoke snapping wheel was weird. Totally straight, couple dents, but I'd snap spokes so often I had to get new rim tape because it lost its stickyness. Last year I snapped 10 spokes out of that wheel, only one was in the middle of the spoke.
I meant the SG ones.......but I guess you were using 2.0 comps then.....which is what I use.

I guess I'm just a master wheel builder;)
 

trialsmasta

Monkey
Oct 19, 2001
281
0
Austin TX
DB spokes all the way. I've heard people say that the thin section allows the spoke to flex, but this all sound a little counter productive to me. I would argue the DB spoke has a higher elasticity hence it maintains tension better and the spoke sees less loading i.e. builds stonger wheel and longer spoke life.
 

pdawg

Monkey
Feb 27, 2006
310
0
Espoo, Finland
straight gauge builds a stronger wheel

If you disagree you're wrong


WRONG!!!!:D
I agree... up to a point. :D

SG Spokes make for a stiff wheel. Can be a strong wheel if used with a heavier rim. However, when using a lighter weight rim, e.g. DT EX5.1, DB are a better choice due to the reason of spoke flex previously mentioned. They are a bit more forgiving to the rim.
Anyway, most spokes break due to inadequate or uneven tensioning... or when wheel eats a tree stump or rock.

OEM wheelmakers typically use SG (stainless) spokes since they are cheaper... not because they are better.
 

juice

Monkey
Nov 11, 2003
189
0
Seattle
Ha ha, I always love this argument. I run straight 2.0 spokes because they're stiff. I'm not too worried about a snapped spoke or two, I'll just replace them. Why spend $2000 on an uber-stiff frame and then build flexy wheels with DB spokes? I even over-tension my spokes when I true up my wheels. They feel fast, stiff and stable in corners! They do tend to fatigue and fall apart after 3 years or so, but by then my rim is an octagon from all the flat spots anyway if it's still alive.
 

pdawg

Monkey
Feb 27, 2006
310
0
Espoo, Finland
Even spoke tension is extremely important. Many wheel builders do not use a tensiometer (a separate topic of discussion). Sure you can go by feel, but it is less accurate and leads to uneven load disribution since some spokes will do more work than others.
 

pdawg

Monkey
Feb 27, 2006
310
0
Espoo, Finland
Deemax wheels use DB spokes and are quite stiff, since they are straight pull and have high tension. Apparently, Mavic sees some benefit in not using SG in this case.
 

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,577
0
Victoria
How are you guys destroying spokes before rims? Every wheel I've ever killed, without fail, has been due to wrecking the rim rather than the spokes (with the exception of a couple of spoke/derailleur inbreeding incidents). I'm quite surprised that anyone is breaking spokes on a DH bike before they write the rim off.
 

Sir_Crackien

Turbo Monkey
Feb 7, 2004
2,051
0
alex. va. usa.
pdawg that park one is not very accurate at all. i have used that one before. the problem is that the spring they use losses tension quickly and the plastic deforms a little over time totally making it worthless.

the one you need is the dt swiss one (way too much $$) or the wheel smith one.

the major problem with all spoke tension meters though is that they rely on the spoke to be perfectly round and made to the right gauge precisely, most are very close but not exact btw.
 

ÆX

Turbo Monkey
Sep 8, 2001
4,920
17
NM
How are you guys destroying spokes before rims? Every wheel I've ever killed, without fail, has been due to wrecking the rim rather than the spokes (with the exception of a couple of spoke/derailleur inbreeding incidents). I'm quite surprised that anyone is breaking spokes on a DH bike before they write the rim off.

overtenstion. if you are rounding nipples with an one of those old
spoke wrenches, there too tight. IMO.

alsway use spokey so you can get them super tight!
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I agree... up to a point. :D

SG Spokes make for a stiff wheel. Can be a strong wheel if used with a heavier rim. However, when using a lighter weight rim, e.g. DT EX5.1, DB are a better choice due to the reason of spoke flex previously mentioned. They are a bit more forgiving to the rim.
Which is why I said I used db on my lighter duty bikes. I think they work well with a smaller rim that you want to have more elasticity.

There's a reason I keep using smilies too. This is like the 1200th thread on this.

The topic typically plays out much like this one.
 

banrider

Monkey
Nov 24, 2004
304
12
I was wondering how much weight difference you can save using DB spokes instead of SG spokes, is it so noticeable in a 32h wheel??
 

jezozwierz

Chimp
Jan 11, 2007
42
0
carpathian mountains
SG 2.0mm for DH, DB for XC, 32 spoke wheels for both. Do a lot of You have problems with black spokes breaking?I only use silver ones.I have bad experience with black spokes.Cheers
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
SG 2.0mm for DH, DB for XC, 32 spoke wheels for both. Do a lot of You have problems with black spokes breaking?I only use silver ones.I have bad experience with black spokes.Cheers
I can't speak from personal experience but I've certainly heard this from two mechanic buddies of mine. One is the head mechanic at a busy shop here that rides dh (and built a sh1tload of wheels) and the other used to build wheels for the sun/ringle team a few years ago. The only wheels with black spokes I've spent any time on were noodly oem wheels on specialized bikes that I rebuilt or replaced, some 36h 239s from a demo 8 I used on a dj bike and then deemaxs. Mostly because of those two guys mentioning it, I've just always used the silver ones.

Is it just paint on those things or is there some sort of treatment that they go through to make them black? Anyone? They're steel so it's not annodization but maybe something similar?