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Gearbox Bikes - Where'd they go?

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,511
29
ACT Australia
The single biggest advantage any rider has is that they are fast enough to win a world cup. The biggest disadvantage any rider has is that they aren't fast enough to win a world cup. Cedric at Fort Bill '06. Cedric and Peaty and 3/4 of the top 10 at Brasil '06. Mick Hannah at the first 3 WC rounds '05. And on, and on....

It seems obvious that gearboxes are the future. It will take a dedicated effort from a group of good minds with good funding and we could have it in couple seasons. And, when it comes it will be great, and there will be guys who can still win on derailleurs until they stop making them.
A couple of seasons,it's here now,it's the Lahar,it won a world Champs,that bike did a whole season before the world champs,all it got was an oil change(25ml,10minutes)and a new chain and it won a world champs while every other bike was new or totally rebuilt. Lahar is small and has no budget for top riders so you won't see any more mega wins probablly but look at New Zealand results and you'll see Lahar smashing it or just wait until ones winning your local races to see it. Yes it is the rider that makes the biggest difference but then it'll be the Lahar that makes the biggest difference to the rider.5 runs on a Lahar(set up properly for you obviously) and you'll beat your own personal best.
 

Ian Collins

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,428
0
Pacific Beach, San Diego, CA
A couple of seasons,it's here now,it's the Lahar,it won a world Champs,that bike did a whole season,before the worlds champs all it got was an oil change(25ml,10minutes)and a new chain and it won a world champs while every other bike was new or totally rebuilt. Lahar is small and has no budget for top riders so you won't see any more mega wins probablly but look at New Zealand results and you'll see Lahar smashing it or just wait until ones winning your local races to see it. Yes it is the rider that makes the biggest difference but then it'll be the Lahar that makes the biggest difference to the rider.5 runs on a Lahar(set up properly for you obviously) and you'll beat your own personal best.
it won the world champs because sam blenkinsop flipped over going warp 12......additionally, saying the honda doesn't have anything on the lahar is flat out ridiculous.....
 

rosenamedpoop

Turbo Monkey
Feb 27, 2004
1,284
0
just Santa Cruz...
A couple of seasons,it's here now,it's the Lahar,it won a world Champs,that bike did a whole season before the world champs,all it got was an oil change(25ml,10minutes)and a new chain and it won a world champs while every other bike was new or totally rebuilt. Lahar is small and has no budget for top riders so you won't see any more mega wins probablly but look at New Zealand results and you'll see Lahar smashing it or just wait until ones winning your local races to see it. Yes it is the rider that makes the biggest difference but then it'll be the Lahar that makes the biggest difference to the rider.5 runs on a Lahar(set up properly for you obviously) and you'll beat your own personal best.
I had to read this 3 times before I realized you were talking about the "kids world championship". Lahars look very nice, but you seem a little zealous about them.
 

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,511
29
ACT Australia
I had to read this 3 times before I realized you were talking about the "kids world championship". Lahars look very nice, but you seem a little zealous about them.
Yeah I should have said Juniors sorry. the Lahar is just that good and on any topic where gearboxs are mentioned and Lahar isn't I can't help myself,they're made and working now.
 

Punter

Chimp
May 8, 2006
54
0
it won the world champs because sam blenkinsop flipped over going warp 12......additionally, saying the honda doesn't have anything on the lahar is flat out ridiculous.....
in two words tell me the persons name who IS THE CURRENT junior world champion....
 

LaharDesign

Monkey
Jun 16, 2006
159
0
I had to read this 3 times before I realized you were talking about the "kids world championship". Lahars look very nice, but you seem a little zealous about them.
You should forgive him, he's ridden one and like hundreds of others unanimously do, rates it as obviously the best bike he's ever ridden.

The gearbox revolution is very scary to the industry as transmissions that last 100000km instead of 1000km and the requirement for chassis to last simularly will slash new bike sales and at present at least increase costs of production.
So its uptake will be slow and driven by the idealists at the boutique end of the game.

Lahars have won around 200 races in NZ over the last 4 years and this includes the biggest domination of the National series ever with bigger race margins and no bike beating a member of a 4 rider team except junior Wyn masters gift to a young Sam Blenkinsop when he stopped and walked back up the track to retrieve his odi grip(he forgot to tighten the lockbolts). This was the only time in 7 years that John Kirkcaldie (fresh from a NORBA series win) could not win every time and indeed was never better than third against two Lahar pros. That was jan/feb 2003 and if the Mark8 molds had not been stolen in feb 2003 there would be thousands of them out by now.

I'm cautious about unzipping too much because the uci has a history of banning bike advantage and that would not be in the interests of the riders. Its good that honda choose to handicap their financial and design advantage with parachutes like the fixed piece of nylon that the riders have to drag the chain over when pedaling and the low pivot that sacrifices big bump performance and needs an electric lockout button to pedal efficiently. We wouldn't want them ruining the sport now would we.
Cameron won the World champs with an 80% run. He didn't think he had a chance because he had always done real bad in mud races so aimed to set a conservative time. It was his first mud race on a Lahar.
No-one else in the top six made it down in one piece. All on conventional bikes.
The ability of Lahars to do world campaigns or national seasons without any mechanical attention has been a big advantage in developing the bikes from a competitive perspective. How manycompanys (not many, if any!) use both hemispheres race seasons for testing as Lahar has since 2001. We've had an 8 season old m8 win u19 nationals this year.
Sams taken the NZ title but with both him and Cameron winning 2 rounds and second in one it was close and unfortunately the margin came from rnd2 on a blue sky day that turned to a flash flood while the pros were waiting for their race run. Only the top 3 places had mudtires.
Sam deserves it though. He's been an obvious prodigy for years, has pestered me for a Lahar for years, and if the M9 was ready earlier than 4 mths before the worlds when Cameron was the only plausible contender unsigned, Sam would definately have been my first choice.
I am dissapointed that few other gearbox designs are undergoing top level race development. The advantages in pedalling efficiency Lahars have over conventional bikes was only realised by competition driven weight reduction. All I can say it know whats good for you and say it loud cause the big players in the industry are addicted to 10x markups on disposable product and they are going to fight against the riders interests tooth and nail over the next decade to keep their milk run.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
Cameron won the World champs with an 80% run. He didn't think he had a chance because he had always done real bad in mud races so aimed to set a conservative time. It was his first mud race on a Lahar.
to be fair, by the time they did their finals run's the course as a whole, wasn't reasonably dry, most of the pros were considering running regular tires or did run regular tires. not that this comment really means much
 

LaharDesign

Monkey
Jun 16, 2006
159
0
to be fair, by the time they did their finals run's the course as a whole, wasn't reasonably dry, most of the pros were considering running regular tires or did run regular tires. not that this comment really means much
Just passing on Camerons comments at the time. Did you see him fall off the hotseat in shock when he won? That was funny.
It dumped the night before and the Juniors raced a couple of hours earlier than the pros. Trying to spectate in the larches(heinous offcamber rootfest down a near cliff) that morning was an extreme sport, you were either hanging onto a tree or sliding down the hill!
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
Just passing on Camerons comments at the time. Did you see him fall off the hotseat in shock when he won? That was funny.
It dumped the night before and the Juniors raced a couple of hours earlier than the pros. Trying to spectate in the larches(heinous offcamber rootfest down a near cliff) that morning was an extreme sport, you were either hanging onto a tree or sliding down the hill!
oh i was there, it wasn't great, but not nearly as bad as earlier in the week. The pro men that I talked to said they were in between running mud/dry tires that day, and its not like the whole course was muddy.

Although I will confess walking up that really steep section before the last open part was not easy, it was hilarious to see people trying to use the tv cables as like a life line. lolz, i wonder how many they broke.
 

Whoops

Turbo Monkey
Jul 9, 2006
1,011
0
New Zealand
:shocked: :shocked: You have machines too?!:shocked: :shocked:
Well, I say machines, but really I mean the bamboo and vine sheep coralls we use to sort them into 'for eating', 'for shagging' and 'for shearing'

btw; Lahars are made from carbon fibre, true... but the fibre is just charred sheep tendons woven into a proprietary mesh by pigmies. THAT is a trade secret, so don't tell anyone.
:pirate2:
___

But seriously folks...

Lahar's are superb, and IF ONLY AARON STOPPED BANGING ON ABOUT THEM ON THE INTERNET AND STEPPED UP HIS MARKETING AND PRODUCTION TO MATCH HIS HYPERBOLE, then there'd be no doubters and everyone would love them as much as Sunday's.:lighten:
 

joelsman

Turbo Monkey
Feb 1, 2002
1,369
0
B'ham
do a search, xynine bought one recently, said depending on exchange rate, it came too about $3500 w/ rohlf, shifter, rear hub, cranks.
 

Tootrikky

Monkey
Jul 31, 2003
772
0
Mount Vernon
You should forgive him, he's ridden one and like hundreds of others unanimously do, rates it as obviously the best bike he's ever ridden.

The gearbox revolution is very scary to the industry as transmissions that last 100000km instead of 1000km and the requirement for chassis to last simularly will slash new bike sales and at present at least increase costs of production.
So its uptake will be slow and driven by the idealists at the boutique end of the game.

Lahars have won around 200 races in NZ over the last 4 years and this includes the biggest domination of the National series ever with bigger race margins and no bike beating a member of a 4 rider team except junior Wyn masters gift to a young Sam Blenkinsop when he stopped and walked back up the track to retrieve his odi grip(he forgot to tighten the lockbolts). This was the only time in 7 years that John Kirkcaldie (fresh from a NORBA series win) could not win every time and indeed was never better than third against two Lahar pros. That was jan/feb 2003 and if the Mark8 molds had not been stolen in feb 2003 there would be thousands of them out by now.

I'm cautious about unzipping too much because the uci has a history of banning bike advantage and that would not be in the interests of the riders. Its good that honda choose to handicap their financial and design advantage with parachutes like the fixed piece of nylon that the riders have to drag the chain over when pedaling and the low pivot that sacrifices big bump performance and needs an electric lockout button to pedal efficiently. We wouldn't want them ruining the sport now would we.
Cameron won the World champs with an 80% run. He didn't think he had a chance because he had always done real bad in mud races so aimed to set a conservative time. It was his first mud race on a Lahar.
No-one else in the top six made it down in one piece. All on conventional bikes.
The ability of Lahars to do world campaigns or national seasons without any mechanical attention has been a big advantage in developing the bikes from a competitive perspective. How manycompanys (not many, if any!) use both hemispheres race seasons for testing as Lahar has since 2001. We've had an 8 season old m8 win u19 nationals this year.
Sams taken the NZ title but with both him and Cameron winning 2 rounds and second in one it was close and unfortunately the margin came from rnd2 on a blue sky day that turned to a flash flood while the pros were waiting for their race run. Only the top 3 places had mudtires.
Sam deserves it though. He's been an obvious prodigy for years, has pestered me for a Lahar for years, and if the M9 was ready earlier than 4 mths before the worlds when Cameron was the only plausible contender unsigned, Sam would definately have been my first choice.
I am dissapointed that few other gearbox designs are undergoing top level race development. The advantages in pedalling efficiency Lahars have over conventional bikes was only realised by competition driven weight reduction. All I can say it know whats good for you and say it loud cause the big players in the industry are addicted to 10x markups on disposable product and they are going to fight against the riders interests tooth and nail over the next decade to keep their milk run.
You and Tony Ellsworth share the same PR firm?

Congrats on the WC win! Awesome accomplishment from a boutique builder such as yourself.

May be tone it down a bit on the conspiracy theories, and outlandish claims. I fail to see how not having to adjust a derailluer counts as being able to compete many seasons w/out mech attention, what about all the other components of a DH bike? I also highly doubt that Honda is dummying down their bikes because they are afraid of the UCI. Congrats on Lahars dominace of the NZ National series as well, but holy moly tone r down!
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
May be tone it down a bit on the conspiracy theories, and outlandish claims. I fail to see how not having to adjust a derailluer counts as being able to compete many seasons w/out mech attention, what about all the other components of a DH bike?
hes talking about the frame and yes they do last that long, and yes gearboxes can go that long without needed attention
 

LaharDesign

Monkey
Jun 16, 2006
159
0
Do you use fibre because you haven't moved into bronze yet? Also, does the ultra-low standover height on Lahar have anything do with a less developed stage in human evolution?
You'd certainly think that if you ever met Glen Sisarich.
Most NZ downhillers have brass ones that swing at knee level. I don't reckon any of that four should have to bounce off a toptube.
Shocks and links knashing at your inner thighs are silly too, why I put everything inside a sleek cowling, the gearbox bulge fitting snugly in the crook of the knee. Due to the need for the shock to have cooling airflow the frame cavity is a venturi, pumped by the rear tyre with the shock in the region of max airspeed.
 

LaharDesign

Monkey
Jun 16, 2006
159
0
Any thoughts on planetary gear drag. I've built built enough f'n Nexus cruisers to know there is major drag there. What about Rholhoff?
Yeah thats why I never put my first three (with nexus) in serious competition. The shimano guys that came saw me at the worlds reckoned it was "only 20% or so".
rohloffs are 98% in the upper 7 gears - those used for downhill, except for gear 11 at 100% and 96% for the lower range. adding 2 for the two chains gives 2-4% losses in gears 8-14. Deraileurs vary from 2% loss in the aligned cogs to 5% in low or high gears- assuming a taut clean and lubed chain but twice this if its dirty.
The high pivot geometry and sprung unsprung weight give larger benefits than a few percent anyway. The use of platform valving has reduced this on smooth ground but consumes lots of energy through deformations of the tyre instead of suspension movement on uneven surfaces. Especially with slow rebound compounds. Independant drive allows you to get maybe 10% more pedalling in anyway(dependant on course).
 

Whoops

Turbo Monkey
Jul 9, 2006
1,011
0
New Zealand
You'd certainly think that if you ever met Glen Sisarich.
ROFL. Now, THAT is funny.

That guy was/is a monster.

Anyone remember the 'tank' Keewee? It had bits of steel welded all over it to make it strong enough for sisarich.. and he still broke it most weekends.

Should've used him for testing the Lahar!
 

LaharDesign

Monkey
Jun 16, 2006
159
0
ROFL. Now, THAT is funny.

That guy was/is a monster.

Anyone remember the 'tank' Keewee? It had bits of steel welded all over it to make it strong enough for sisarich.. and he still broke it most weekends.

Should've used him for testing the Lahar!
We did on our Norba and euro world cup trip in 2001 with the m4, m5, m6.

Gear 11 on the rohloff is 1:1 so none of the internals are involved.
 

benno

Monkey
Apr 7, 2006
201
0
You should forgive him, he's ridden one and like hundreds of others unanimously do, rates it as obviously the best bike he's ever ridden.
It's not because he's the Aus distributor and had a vested financial interest in pimping your bikes?
 

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,511
29
ACT Australia
Hmm depends on what context,it'd be running over less bearings than a roller and jockey wheels,but year with some more links on the Lahars chain blah blah blah,you're really talking about the difference a dirty chain would make. It's a DH bike c'mon,rotor rub etc would wear/slow you more.
 

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,511
29
ACT Australia
It's not because he's the Aus distributor and had a vested financial interest in pimping your bikes?
In short,NO it's not because I have a vested interest.
I import Brooklyn and Lahar into Aus,they're both very similer in design(proving my convictions)yet different enough to be different.I've waited ten years to find products I believed in and deemed worthy of selling. I went to Taiwan to the trade show etc and never found anything worthy. I don't push any **** and I don't lie or exagerate,I just say what I believe to be the truth. Check through all my posts to see how much I talk about the Balfa BB7 old Yetis and anything else I believe to be right and not marketing bull****. I've sold one Brooklyn Race Link and one Lahar Mk9 so far,don't think I'll be buying a house real soon with that. I have mates in Taiwan always offering me big proffit stuff to sell but I'm not into it,I'd rather sleep at night.
Right is right,you'll see whether it's a copy you're riding or a Lahar.
 

FarkinRyan

Monkey
Dec 15, 2003
611
192
Pemberton, BC
For those of you who don't trust the word of LaharDesign and no skid marks, which is fair enough because they DO both have a vested interest in selling these things, I suggest you head over to Farkin and check out this review of a Lahar from someone who's actually ridden one.

The guy who wrote that review just happens to go by the name of "thaflyinfatman" on these boards and and as you should know, he has no vested interest in anything other than being an uppity, argumentative and generally smartarsed punk who hangs sh1t on anyone who spouts off at the mouth with uneducated marketing BS. He's someone who's word even I'm willing to take on whether or not a bike is good and I'm probably one of the most cynical people alive.
 

LaharDesign

Monkey
Jun 16, 2006
159
0
Please do not buy a Lahar. I cannot make enough.
I'm not here to sell bikes but the gearbox revolution. Something we've all needed for a long time.
 

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,577
0
Victoria
Sure, but that's not the same as 100% efficient.
Actually in that context it is (referring to the hub efficiency only) - the gears in the hub are not actually moving (ie the ring is effectively locked to the hub outer like a normal rear hub under power), so you only have whatever drag you get from the chain(s); there is no additional loss from the gearbox.

For what it's worth though, all the Rohloff'd bikes I've ever ridden (Lahar included) have had a noticeable amount of drag compared to a normal derailleur setup. By noticeable I do mean "noticeable" not "massive and going to cause you to have a heart attack after two pedal strokes". It's enough that you can feel/hear it but in my personal opinion it's not a big deal. The best analogy I can think of is it's like having a chainguide roller rubbing against your chain while it's still on the chainring - it's enough that you can tell it's there but it's still pretty minor. If I was considering buying a new bike, the drag of the Rohloff is not something that would influence my decision one way or the other.


The use of platform valving has reduced this on smooth ground but consumes lots of energy through deformations of the tyre instead of suspension movement on uneven surfaces.
Well that's going to happen on any bike with a given tyre/tube and pressure, regardless of suspension design etc. In fact you could argue that in a dynamic context, more suspension bob would slightly reduce the amplitude of the tyre's deformations and therefore high-efficiency suspension designs are actually wasting more energy through tyre bob! :clue: hahaha
 

LaharDesign

Monkey
Jun 16, 2006
159
0
I certainly notice extra resistance in the lower 7 gears. The freewheel noise from the shifting pawls in the rohloff in gears 1-7 is annoying too. I haven't been able to feel a difference between the 1:1 ratio and the other gears in the upper range which leads me to believe they are pretty darn efficient. When I first built a rohloff softail demonstrator I sold about 20 in a row and no deraileur ones. Everyone that tried it said they'd never go back to deraileurs. There was occasionally an xc or multisporter that wanted deraileurs but mainly for weight reasons.
Very supple suspension that allows the tyre to be evenly weighted over every little stone and undulation is the opposite of threshold systems. drivetrain mass on the wheel will also cause the tyre to deform and consume more energy, but probably not near as much as thresholds. My mark one bike actually responded fast enough to level the knobs on the rear tyre when wheeled at walking pace on concrete. even with no rider weight the frame moved not at all.
 

Punter

Chimp
May 8, 2006
54
0
The only problem i have with the rohloff is the shifting. I notice no noticeable issue with drag or peddalling efficiency. Also, the added bonus of knowing that you are always in a gear and it will never slip is awesome for power pedalling out of a corner.
The thing i dont like so much(but can ride around it) is changin up under power. When you are tapping the fu cker out of a start gate, you have to slightly let off to shift up. Its only out of the start that its a problem. Generally on a course you can remember your gear shifts so that they are completed on entry to the corner and you are already in the most efficient gear for exit pedalling.
More often than not when entering a corner you aint pedalling, probably standing up freewheeling sorting a hot line out... so being able to shift instantly without pedal rotation is quite handy.

Gear boxes are the shizzle.

I own two Lahars now. I want another one.

take it easy
 

Whoops

Turbo Monkey
Jul 9, 2006
1,011
0
New Zealand
Actually in that context it is (referring to the hub efficiency only) - the gears in the hub are not actually moving (ie the ring is effectively locked to the hub outer like a normal rear hub under power), so you only have whatever drag you get from the chain(s); there is no additional loss from the gearbox.
Yes - there is. The gearbox has to be spun, = energy = efficiency loss.

me= the worst pedant you'll ever meet...

In the real world - it's as if there was 100% eff, but there isn't quite. Maybe something like 99.95%. Not enough to be noticable to ANY rider, but not 100%. I HATE marketing exageration.

meh - who cares. It's a damn good bike
 

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,511
29
ACT Australia
What about the flywheel affect of the hub? Debating about singled out facts here whithout looking at the whole package is misleading without looking at the balance it creates. There's other bennefits to the suspensions efficiency(less bob etc),so unless comparing to another particular bike,then singling out something is trivial if not talking about the whole package.Accusing anyone of marketing exageration is exageration.Aaron has spelled it all out above.
It's not a road bike,it's a DH bike with the best balance of compromises to provide the best package.The Rohloff is so far ahead in terms of weight,and reliability of any other gearbox design and the bennefits of gearbox over deraileur has been covered.The bike is a competitive weight and until a lighter gearbox is made it's the most logical choice concidering all factors(reliability,etc).
Find one,ride it.
 

noskcaj

Monkey
Oct 24, 2005
106
0
Northford, CT
I'm currently working on my own gearbox frame using a nexus 7spd hub. When I was inspecting the internals i noticed Shimano uses a relatively thick gear grease rather than gear oil in the hub. I was thinking perhaps there would be less drag if I clean all the gears and pawls and put new synthetic gear oil in (Redline). To contain the oil, I was thinking of sealing up the hub a bit better with some hub seals and it is also in a location which is shielded from direct spray.

What do you guys think about doing this?
 

Whoops

Turbo Monkey
Jul 9, 2006
1,011
0
New Zealand
What about the flywheel affect of the hub? Debating about singled out facts here whithout looking at the whole package is misleading without looking at the balance it creates. There's other bennefits to the suspensions efficiency(less bob etc),so unless comparing to another particular bike,then singling out something is trivial if not talking about the whole package.Accusing anyone of marketing exageration is exageration.Aaron has spelled it all out above.
It's not a road bike,it's a DH bike with the best balance of compromises to provide the best package.The Rohloff is so far ahead in terms of weight,and reliability of any other gearbox design and the bennefits of gearbox over deraileur has been covered.The bike is a competitive weight and until a lighter gearbox is made it's the most logical choice concidering all factors(reliability,etc).
Find one,ride it.
I assume you're coming back at my comments?

Aaron singled it out. I was making a correction.

Accusing of exageration is an exageration? Puh-lease. Aaron has a history of overuse of hyperbole to hype his bike. Fair play, it's a great bike. But if you're gonna spout **** (like: It's unbreakable, no fatigue etc etc) expect to be called on it.

I was in no way slating the Rohloff. I was commenting that nothing is 100% efficient. Like I said, I'm a pedantic asshole.

Lahar rocks. There's so much potential there... I hope you guys have the skills and can extract it.
 

Whoops

Turbo Monkey
Jul 9, 2006
1,011
0
New Zealand
I'm currently working on my own gearbox frame using a nexus 7spd hub. When I was inspecting the internals i noticed Shimano uses a relatively thick gear grease rather than gear oil in the hub. I was thinking perhaps there would be less drag if I clean all the gears and pawls and put new synthetic gear oil in (Redline). To contain the oil, I was thinking of sealing up the hub a bit better with some hub seals and it is also in a location which is shielded from direct spray.

What do you guys think about doing this?
If you can do it, sure thing. There will be less internal friction, but depending on the relative lubrication qualities, perhaps more wear.

Personally I'd spend the time working on the frame rather than modding the nexus to extract some sub-single digit performance improvement (go for 100% efficiency :poster_oops: . sorry, couldn't resist - my bad)
 

noskcaj

Monkey
Oct 24, 2005
106
0
Northford, CT
The frame is coming along pretty smoothly, unfortunately i'm at school right now, so that has slowed up the process.

I have found all the parts I need to make my 888/Stratos fork, and have been researching damping a bit, and I found a few good articles and patents on high-end motocross dampers which have an orifice low speed damping circuit and a shim stack high speed circuit. The machining required for the dampers doesn't appear to be difficult, so i might experiment with a one-side air spring, one-side damping w/ 888 crowns/stem/lowers and gold stratos stanchions w/ the teflon treatment fork.

I also might have a different shifting/damping control system in the works for my senior design project next semester if the chassis rides nice.

I hope to have the chassis done by the end of spring break (Mar 10) and ill try to get some pics and the geometry/weight info to post.