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Surprise! Vinokourov blood doped!

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
Vinokourov positive for transfusion, Astana quits Tour
By Gregor Brown
Alexander Vinokourov (Astana)
Photo ©: AFP (Click for larger image)

The Tour de France was rocked by news that Astana's battered team leader, Alexandre Vinokourov tested positive for a homologous blood transfusion after Saturday's time trial in Albi. L'Equipe reported on Tuesday afternoon that the Kazakh's blood had shown evidence of a transfusion from another person with a compatible blood type in an analysis done in the Châtenay-Malabry laboratory.

The 33 year-old Kazakh was the winner of the stage 13 time trial in addition to Monday's stage 15 to Loudenvielle. A new blood control was apparently taken after stage 15 and is currently undergoing analysis. Homologous blood transfusions have been detectable since the 2004 Olympic games.

Upon receiving the news, the Astana team has allegedly quit the Tour, according to the French newspaper
 

James

Carbon Porn Star
Sep 11, 2001
3,559
0
Danbury, CT
:(

Bums me out. Vino has always been one of my favorite riders.
Sigh.
I'll keep watching, but my real passion is gone...
 

James

Carbon Porn Star
Sep 11, 2001
3,559
0
Danbury, CT
He always rode with his heart, not his head, now we know that heart was pumping someone else's blood...
 

reflux

Turbo Monkey
Mar 18, 2002
4,617
2
G14 Classified
Oh snap! Cycling is fixin' for another massive fallout after this Tour.

Is there a Vegas pool on who will be the next cyclist to go down?
 

Zutroy

Turbo Monkey
Dec 9, 2004
2,443
0
Ventura,CA
Why the ferk would you do that? U could pull your own and get away with it so much easier........this could get very interesting......that test is already on thin ice as far as it's validation goes...be interesting to see if he goes after it.
 

BikeMike

Monkey
Feb 24, 2006
784
0
Hmmm...Vino is the first cyclist since Tyler Hamilton (in 2004) to test positive for homologous blood doping. It appears that doping is, or at least has been in the past few years, quite widespread/commonplace. Somehow, and especially with the "evidence" of blood bags from Operation Puerto, it is hard for me to believe that only Tyler and Vino have blood doped. Something doesn't feel right. I'm willing to bet that the test is less than rigorous.*

*Edit: I'm no longer willing to bet the test sucks that much. They're using FACS--fluorescence activated cell sorting. see Zutroy's explanation a few posts down.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
1,116
NORCAL is the hizzle
Ahh crap.

Let's see, did well one day, then lost 30 mins one day, then came back to win the stage the next day. Sound familiar to anyone? It was only a year ago. Anyway. Not surprised but definitely disappointed.
 

golgiaparatus

Out of my element
Aug 30, 2002
7,340
41
Deep in the Jungles of Oklahoma
I am only shocked that he got busted, not at all that he was on the sauce. He was afterall... from T-Mobile/Telecom. Its totally my guess that if you were from that team then you are or were a doper.

He destroyed everyone in the field that day BTW... I wonder if he was one of the only ones on the sauce?
 

MtnbikeMike

Turbo Monkey
Mar 6, 2004
2,637
1
The 909
I would be interesting to see if another rider test positive, maybe blood bags got switched?

I also wonder if he took it easy on stage 14 to avoid a drug test.
 

HOOWAH

Monkey
Sep 16, 2001
105
0
portland, maine USA
I bet this pushes T-mobile over the edge and they drop out of cycling. what's that, $30 million/yr lost to the sport.

doesn't vino have to pay a fine equal to one year of salary now since he signed that contract before the tour?
 

BikeMike

Monkey
Feb 24, 2006
784
0
Ahh crap.

Let's see, did well one day, then lost 30 mins one day, then came back to win the stage the next day. Sound familiar to anyone? It was only a year ago. Anyway. Not surprised but definitely disappointed.
I have yet to see a reasonable explanation of how, physiologically, testosterone one day can possibly make you significantly faster the next.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
I have yet to see a reasonable explanation of how, physiologically, testosterone one day can possibly make you significantly faster the next.
blood transfusion isn't about testosterone, is it?

I thought it was about boosting oxygen levels?
 
L

luelling

Guest
Some quotes from Miller are appearing
David Millar was the first rider to react to the news: "Jesus Christ - there you go, that's my quote," he blurted out. "What timing, huh? This is just ****ing great."
I like that one, and then this one
Millar broke down into tears when he was asked by British journalist Jeremy Whittle if he was all right, saying, "I just feel like crying right now."
http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/details/articles/12910.0.html

On another note, it sounds like Miller may be going to Slipstream which will help them have a Tour birth
 

Zutroy

Turbo Monkey
Dec 9, 2004
2,443
0
Ventura,CA
Please elaborate. I know other tests have questionable validity, but I just assume that different blood cells was easy to detect?
The test uses a technique called Fluorescence-activated cell-sorting. Which basically means your tagging cells with a tag that fluoresces when it’s popped with a laser, different cells tag different ways this giving you a graph, if you have to much of a different peak, the conclusion is it’s a mixed cell population. There are a couple things that are not exactly right with the test. First the validation study was done on a very small set of subjects that were all women who were either pregnant or not. A false positive rate has never been calculated for the test. The guys that came up with the test says it’s zero, which makes the rest of the science world shoot milk out there nose when they hear it. Flow cytometry as a technique is very depended on prep, if you have an issue with prep it can cause all sorts of issues. There are also a host of conditions that can cause the test to be wrong.

So basically it’s not the most rock solid test around.

The thing is there is no test for an autologous transfusion. Which is what the whole Spanish doping thing was about. With EPO it’s much easier to pull this off. RBCs have a self life of ~42 days give or take, so it’s pretty easy to pull your own cells boost your count back up with EPO out of competition and put it back in during the race.

It would be interesting to see if his hematocrit jumped up at all.
 
L

luelling

Guest
"In a period of crisis such as we are living in at the moment, a champion must be a good example," said Clerc. "His attitude, his lack of respect shown to the administrative rules, which is unacceptable, should be made known to us and we would have refused his participation, because he is not a good role model for the others in the peloton."
Looks like Rasmussen may not be coming back next year, unless he cleans up his act
http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/news/articles/12912.0.html
 

Cant Climb

Turbo Monkey
May 9, 2004
2,683
10
Le Tour is dirty and always will be dirty.

Sounds like someone picked up the wrong bags when doing Vino's transfusion. Employees make mistakes......:rant:
 

Cant Climb

Turbo Monkey
May 9, 2004
2,683
10
Vino had been criticised before the Tour by UCI president Pat McQuaid for his association with Italian sports doctor Michele Ferrari.
Lance's old italian doctor.

The Mayo clinic doctors who cured him of cancer weren't good enough. Lance had search down and use the "witch doctor" as his personal physician..........they all F'n dope.

Keeps the playing field level though...
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
Ahh crap.

Let's see, did well one day, then lost 30 mins one day, then came back to win the stage the next day. Sound familiar to anyone? It was only a year ago. Anyway. Not surprised but definitely disappointed.
Actually, I figured he was a doper but you are talking about his crash, right?
 

Heidi

Der hund ist laut und braun
Aug 22, 2001
10,184
797
Bend, Oregon
I like this quote the best: Eric Boyer, Team Manager, (Cofidis):
"I feel sick. I hope that Vinokourov won't be a coward and deny everything. He said that he worked with Ferrari just for training plans. He always told us what a brave guy he is, that he is stronger than the pain, that the French ride behind everyone else because they are lazier. Now we see that he is a big bastard. These practices discredit all of cycling again."


hahah - he's a big bastard! I wish he would have called him a big stupidhead. :)
 

Roasted

Turbo Monkey
Jul 4, 2002
1,488
0
Whistler, BC
I have yet to see a reasonable explanation of how, physiologically, testosterone one day can possibly make you significantly faster the next.
It doesn't, really, it allows your muscles to recover faster thereby allowing you to work out longer with shorter downtime. Therefore, taking the drug after 200km helps your muscle recover to the point where you have an unfair advantage the next day.
 

BikeMike

Monkey
Feb 24, 2006
784
0
It doesn't, really, it allows your muscles to recover faster thereby allowing you to work out longer with shorter downtime. Therefore, taking the drug after 200km helps your muscle recover to the point where you have an unfair advantage the next day.
Can you explain or give a citation for that? As far as I remember, and I admit I don't always remember that well, the line that "testosterone gives amazing recovery for endurance events" is something reported by a few athletes, not something based on physiology, and is thus quite subjective and subject to a strong placebo-like bias effect.

Hartgens and Kuipers concluded in 2004 that "Although AAS administration may affect erythropoiesis and blood haemoglobin concentrations, no effect on endurance performance was observed. Little data about the effects of AAS on metabolic responses during exercise training and recovery are available and, therefore, do not allow firm conclusions."

Then there's also this 2006 study: "In the present study, no effect of multiple oral doses of AAS on endurance performance or bioserum recovery markers was found."

Disclaimer: I can't read the whole papers, so it is possible that they're weaker than their abstracts indicate.
 

Roasted

Turbo Monkey
Jul 4, 2002
1,488
0
Whistler, BC
Can you explain or give a citation for that? As far as I remember, and I admit I don't always remember that well, the line that "testosterone gives amazing recovery for endurance events" is something reported by a few athletes, not something based on physiology, and is thus quite subjective and subject to a strong placebo-like bias effect.

Hartgens and Kuipers concluded in 2004 that "Although AAS administration may affect erythropoiesis and blood haemoglobin concentrations, no effect on endurance performance was observed. Little data about the effects of AAS on metabolic responses during exercise training and recovery are available and, therefore, do not allow firm conclusions."

Then there's also this 2006 study: "In the present study, no effect of multiple oral doses of AAS on endurance performance or bioserum recovery markers was found."

Disclaimer: I can't read the whole papers, so it is possible that they're weaker than their abstracts indicate.

to be honest my information comes from research in the early 90's when I was bodybuilding. Bodybuilders believed it was adding pure muscle to their system (which in cycles, it was doing) but it was also partially due to recovery. No I can't cite the research but I do know from some experience in my early years that the recovery times were less allowing for massive workout days with very little of the standard reprecussions.

I could give you sites spewing similar information but I don't think you want pure conjecture, you want medical information which I can't provide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid

Obviously that is just wiki, but it does have some references at the bottom you can follow if you like. Most anabolic steroid information is based on studies dating back to the early 1900's. There is very little argument over the "positive" affects of anabolic steroids, there is however lots of debate over the adverse side affects. Here is an exerpt to my point

The effect of anabolic steroids on muscle mass is caused in at least two ways:[38] first, they increase the production of proteins; second, they reduce recovery time by blocking the effects of stress hormone cortisol on muscle tissue, so that catabolism of muscle is greatly reduced
Anyways, enjoy, I don't have the resources at hand anymore as I haven't been involved on that side of things in 15 years, but steroids do two basic things, increase protein creation, increasing muscle mass with a well thought out cycle and reduce cortizone which thereby reduces recovery time. Both of those affects make for longer, stronger more intervalled workouts giving massive boosts to the muscle mass/strength.
 

Roasted

Turbo Monkey
Jul 4, 2002
1,488
0
Whistler, BC
Hartgens and Kuipers concluded in 2004 that "Although AAS administration may affect erythropoiesis and blood haemoglobin concentrations, no effect on endurance performance was observed. Little data about the effects of AAS on metabolic responses during exercise training and recovery are available and, therefore, do not allow firm conclusions."

QUOTE]

To answer this one specifically, no I doubt anabloic steroids assist directly in endurance (heck its a mass building strength building setup, my friends sure didn't get to be small using roids). They are an anaerobic substance. But the ability to reduce cortisone is a bonus to muscle recovery. A very indirect but useful affect to cyclists.