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Converting a Boxxer Team to a World Cup

E441

Chimp
Jan 29, 2002
17
0
MD
Can anyone help with info on what parts and tools I will need to convert an 07 Team to a World Cup? Some instructions would also be helpful. Thanks.
 

muddy beast

Turbo Monkey
Nov 26, 2005
1,815
0
i just spent a wopping $70 to get the air spring and top cap and that is all you need.
Hmm...why send the extra $300 for the WC when you can get the team and upgrade? haha

err....I guess its more like $700 for you unprivliged riders...

:clapping:
 

davep

Turbo Monkey
Jan 7, 2005
3,276
0
seattle
Honed stanchion
air cap
air piston assy

About $250 retail in parts IF you can find them. None of the distributors currently have what you need.
 

rowlands

Monkey
Nov 26, 2006
159
0
the same tube is used i just makes sence to replace it if it has been used with a spring, i dont think sram would put an mc unit in an un smooth tube and it seems to be the same as the spring side.
 

Pow pow

Chimp
Nov 18, 2003
66
0
Scotland
the same tube is used i just makes sence to replace it if it has been used with a spring, i dont think sram would put an mc unit in an un smooth tube and it seems to be the same as the spring side.
The honed tube is actually different. A boxxer team uses the same stantions (the non honed ones) on both sides, the WC one normal and one honed.
It may well be possible to use the air spring with a non honed stantion though. I have never tried
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Nah the WC actually uses the honed stanchion on both sides. Check the parts listing for it.

IMO there's a subtle difference in that it's easier to slide the motion control unit into the WC stanchion (I've got both forks), and for that same reason the o-rings in the solo air side would slide in it better too.

So yeah it'd be worth getting the proper stanchion (especially if your team/race has been compressed before, as the springs will have likely marred the inside of the stanchion anyway), and like davep said you need the air piston assembly and air topcap also.
 

RMboy

Monkey
Dec 1, 2006
879
0
England the Great...
why? the team has better internals... you wont gain any extra performance with WC (prob lose sum).. the only thing u will gain is less weight which you could lose in other places, without sacrificing performance....just my 2 cent as u say ;-)

my WC has team internals...well at no extra cost as i brought it for £400...lol
 

DhDork

Monkey
Mar 30, 2007
352
0
Hell, AZ
why? the team has better internals... you wont gain any extra performance with WC (prob lose sum).. the only thing u will gain is less weight which you could lose in other places, without sacrificing performance....just my 2 cent as u say ;-)

my WC has team internals...well at no extra cost as i brought it for £400...lol

:twitch:

(JUST AN EXAMPLE) If it doesn't perform better, then why would any factory rider want to ride the World Cup internals?
 

Lollapalooza

Monkey
Jan 22, 2007
527
0
:twitch:

(JUST AN EXAMPLE) If it doesn't perform better, then why would any factory rider want to ride the World Cup internals?
Weight. Still, some of the factory riders have a team, ti spring, and WC lowers. It all comes down to preferance.
 

julian_dh

Monkey
Jan 10, 2005
813
0
im pretty sure most of the top riders are not downgrading to a spring fork.

the air feels alot better plusher, much more tuneable for bottom out resistance, better over stutter bumps. you just need to take some time playing with the solo air and chamber size. honestly i hated every world cup i tried, and was really just in it for the weight savings and the mass variety of spring rates. but once i had it installed it was amazing, a bit sticky for the first day but that quickly left and the fork feels better than it ever did.

as for the honed tubes, i think the difference is real small. the way my friend put it as being pre broken in. ive had no air loss and there is zero stick with my fork.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
RMBoy - I own both the team and WC, and have done plenty of riding on both.

1. Most factory riders ride the AIR cartridge, you'd be buying into some pretty dumb rumours to think that the top riders out there are riding coil forks. Go look at a couple of the pro's topcaps next time you're at a WC event.

2. The WC (very plainly, and very simply) has less stiction than the team/race, because the solo-air unit has only TWO tiny sliding o-rings, whereas the coil spring has 3 spring isolators about 5-6cm long that rub on the inside of the stanchion during compression, and the amount of stiction also varies depending on spring flex / travel position etc unlike the WC which is consistent after the first compression (to get the lube oil moving around).

I'm not going to say the difference is night and day, but build a bridge and get over it - the WC is the superior fork in about every possible way. I have enough spare o-rings to service the solo air unit 2x over (for the massive cost of 50 cents), and hardly ever see it fail to begin with. It's easy as all hell to service should it need it though, and for the performance and weight benefits I think it's worth picking over the team provided you have the coin.
 

norcalbiker

Chimp
Jul 15, 2007
61
0
RMBoy - I own both the team and WC, and have done plenty of riding on both.

1. Most factory riders ride the AIR cartridge, you'd be buying into some pretty dumb rumours to think that the top riders out there are riding coil forks. Go look at a couple of the pro's topcaps next time you're at a WC event.

2. The WC (very plainly, and very simply) has less stiction than the team/race, because the solo-air unit has only TWO tiny sliding o-rings, whereas the coil spring has 3 spring isolators about 5-6cm long that rub on the inside of the stanchion during compression, and the amount of stiction also varies depending on spring flex / travel position etc unlike the WC which is consistent after the first compression (to get the lube oil moving around).

I'm not going to say the difference is night and day, but build a bridge and get over it - the WC is the superior fork in about every possible way. I have enough spare o-rings to service the solo air unit 2x over (for the massive cost of 50 cents), and hardly ever see it fail to begin with. It's easy as all hell to service should it need it though, and for the performance and weight benefits I think it's worth picking over the team provided you have the coin.

no buddy your dead wrong about that. peat, rennie and others ride coil.
 

woof

Monkey
May 17, 2005
426
0
I think I like the coil better as well. Could have been a bad setup, but I messed with it a bunch and couldn't get it dialed.

Did anyone ever make a ti spring for the new boxxers????
 

woof

Monkey
May 17, 2005
426
0
Would it be possible to run an air top cap and suck air out to create a vacum? This way you could tune the spring to your happy spot. I thought someone was doing this, but maybe I'm in lala land.
 

evolutionbike

Monkey
Mar 21, 2004
260
0
Baltimore
Peat, Rennie and Others ride the "Air" fork not the coil. They have been riding the Air fork for a number of years. It is alot easier for them because the obviously have the support of the SRAM team at 90% of the races in which they attend. Next time your in the vicinity of the SRAM race support vehicle ask Boobar how often the forks are overhauled, they are constantly fixing and fine tuning the suspension for these riders. The fork is far more supple then the coil but you must be willing to invest the time in trying various air pressures to find your sweet spot. If you have the extra cash and are willing to fiddle with your fork it is a nice fork to own, but if you do not. The Team is a great fork at a fraction of the price.

In short I agree with "Norcalbiker"
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Actually, you completely disagreed with him and went on to prove him wrong. Congratulations.

PS - in case you didn't notice, you listed the only negative as having to try different pressures to find the sweet spot. Sounds like that would be a reeeal pain compared to spending money on various coil springs trying to find the perfect rate, likely having to make a sacrifice due the availability of only 5 different rates (as opposed to being able to choose virtually any intermediate rate on the air fork).

Honestly, you're only helping prove my point.
 

big-ted

Danced with A, attacked by C, fired by D.
Sep 27, 2005
1,400
47
Vancouver, BC
At the beginning of LAST season, SOME WC riders were definitely running coils in forks badged as World Cups, the reasons being the change in spring rate due to heating on long runs, and lack of small bump sensitivity off the top of the stroke. Mick Hannah for example got his WC win on a coil sprung "WC". However, I was under the impression that these riders were in a relative minority, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the issues they were having have been rectified now.
 

evolutionbike

Monkey
Mar 21, 2004
260
0
Baltimore
My agreement was a bit sarcastic, I'm working on expressing sarcasm better via written word. I agree about the different spring rates you are correct virtually any "spring" rate is attainable which gives the fork a better tuning range out of the box.

In short the forks are offered for two different types of consumer, although closely related, people with enough cake to purchase the high end and gain a reduction in weight yet an increase in performance and adjustability. As well as a high performing Team fork for those that do not have the money but can still gain on a lightweight great performing fork.

The way technology trickles down, todays Team fork is yesteryears WORLD CUP.

Be happy we have options.
 

dhkid

Turbo Monkey
Mar 10, 2005
3,358
0
Malaysia
1. Most factory riders ride the AIR cartridge, you'd be buying into some pretty dumb rumours to think that the top riders out there are riding coil forks. Go look at a couple of the pro's topcaps next time you're at a WC event.

2. The WC (very plainly, and very simply) has less stiction than the team/race, because the solo-air unit has only TWO tiny sliding o-rings, whereas the coil spring has 3 spring isolators about 5-6cm long that rub on the inside of the stanchion during compression, and the amount of stiction also varies depending on spring flex / travel position etc unlike the WC which is consistent after the first compression (to get the lube oil moving around).
first of all, if they were riders who were using coils in world cups, sram wouldn't want the public to know about it would they? and the coil would work fine with an air cap. i dont see what an air cap cant do what a preload cap cant?( the loads on the air cap would be exactly the same as on a preload cap.)

second of all, you cant really say for sure that 3 long pieces of long shrink wrap will have more friction then those two o rings. friction is a function of normal reaction and coefficient of friction. surface area doesn't matter. (although some stick friction could come into play over there) and i have run teams with only one shrink wrap in the middle of the spring with no rubbing from the spring.

not saying you are wrong, but you cant just say those are facts just from speculation.
 

Rick205

Monkey
Jun 20, 2006
200
0
friction is a function of normal reaction and coefficient of friction. surface area doesn't matter
Have to disagree here, yes friction is a function of normal reaction and specific coefficient of friction for the given materials, but you do have to take into account surface area, just think about it - your trying to say that 1sqmm of surface generates the same amount of frictional forces as 100sqmm of surface?
 

dhkid

Turbo Monkey
Mar 10, 2005
3,358
0
Malaysia
^^ if the normal reaction on them is the same then yea. but i did say that stick friction would come into play too, but as long as you take out all the slick honey that comes stock and put some fresh oil in i dont see it being a problem.
 

karpi

Monkey
Apr 17, 2006
904
0
Santiasco, Chile
get a team, race o world cup 05, have one side fitted with and extra firm titanium spring (rebound side), and have the other side fitted with an air chamber... and there you have the lightest Boxxer available, plushest as well
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
My agreement was a bit sarcastic, I'm working on expressing sarcasm better via written word.

In short the forks are offered for two different types of consumer, although closely related, people with enough cake to purchase the high end and gain a reduction in weight yet an increase in performance and adjustability. As well as a high performing Team fork for those that do not have the money but can still gain on a lightweight great performing fork.
Ah no worries, I thought you were being serious when you said you agreed with him.

But yeah I feel the same way - I'm definitely not trying to say the team is a bad fork, like I said I own one too. In fact, for rockshox's midrange fork it manages to be lower, lighter, and (naturally) better damped than some of the competition's top end forks!

the reasons being the change in spring rate due to heating on long runs, and lack of small bump sensitivity off the top of the stroke.
I honestly don't agree with either of those calls (about the current forks anyway), that's the sort of thing you usually hear from people who are yet to try the fork and have some very old fashioned ideas (or second-hand ones) on how air suspension should feel.

Firsthand, I reckon the amount of heat in the air leg is minimal - I've grabbed the stanchion at the bottom of some fairly long runs and it hasn't even been warm, whereas the damper leg on the other hand gets noticeably warm (the first time I was surprised at one being hot and the other cold). Any change in springrate due to heat would be intangible IMO.

And the stiction comment is pretty much null and void after the first compression (as soon as the o-ring touches oil essentially), I'll stand by my comment that the WC has less stiction than the team. Sliding components are lubed in both spring setups, just that there's far less to slide in the air spring setup. For the record, both forks take a few compressions for the lube oil in the lowers to get to the bushings too.

The only nit you could pick with the air-spring is that you tend to get a nonlinear spring curve where the positive/negative rates crossover, whereas with the coil fork it will stay linear - but just like the heat thing, I reckon it would be a pretty intangible difference.

All that aside, one thing everyone should realise, and something that was discussed in BmxConvert's recent boxxer thread - is that lubing of seals/bushings plays a huge part in how these forks feel, and the quality of the job done from factory ranges greatly - not to mention the myriad of people out there who either don't service their forks at all, or do it incorrectly.

I've run both forks back-to-back on the same bike (in the same crowns!) with the springrate matched as closely as possible, built identically. 20ml silkolene 10wt per lower leg, seals packed with silicone grease, speedstack out, and identical damping oil + settings.

Unless you've done the same, you've just gotta realise that those factors you couldn't keep constant would have played a huge part in the opinion you formed, making its validity questionable at best. :)

/off soapbox
 

big-ted

Danced with A, attacked by C, fired by D.
Sep 27, 2005
1,400
47
Vancouver, BC
Yeah, I've not really spent any time riding the air fork, so my comments aren't a reflection of my own experiences, but of the information passed on to me by a friend who works as a mechanic for one of the larger European teams. A friend of mine just picked up a WC, and aside from his insisting on running next to no rebound damping it feels pretty sweet. Would be hard pushed to tell it apart from my team in the parking lot at least, especially as the bushings on both forks are equally screwed...
 

julian_dh

Monkey
Jan 10, 2005
813
0
im tired of hearing this factory support card, anyone with a monkey wrench c clip tool and a bunch of alan keys can service a boxxer so **** factory support.

as for the friction of the solo air vs the spring, i would be more concerned with the dead weight of the spring sitting in there making the fork less sensitive. i do agree the team has more stick to it and its obvious when u hear the spring flapping around in there the wc for the most parts is a fair bit quieter.
 

- seb

Turbo Monkey
Apr 10, 2002
2,924
1
UK
Well as big-ted knows, I have a bad habit of spending money on things that aren't broke, and I'm a sucker for light-weight bits....

Going off of RS's claimed weights for the two 08 forks I should be looking to save 318g by switching my Teams from coil to air, so on Tuesday I'll be calling the man at TF up and seeing how much mula he wants for the parts/work.

The light-bits bug has bitten me again in recent weeks, and cost-per-gram this is the most effective way of me shaving some weight off of my DH bike, and quite a bit of it as well. And whilst I read some bad things about the WCs back in 06 when they first came out, people seem a lot happier with them now, many even praising them above Teams.

PLus... spending money always feels good :D
 

RMboy

Monkey
Dec 1, 2006
879
0
England the Great...
Lol Mr Tf is getting a nice pay day then...and ur getting a worse fork..lol just get the Bos or Pushed upgrade if your going to change the internals...318g..woop woop not going to make u any better

But better performing forks will help more!!!
 

- seb

Turbo Monkey
Apr 10, 2002
2,924
1
UK
To be fair better performing forks wont make me any better either. My mate is currently winning races on a set of knackered 888s with no rebound damping that piss their oil all over his front brake, so that's screwed as well. And he's still winning. If we draw a comparison it's plain to see that the best bike in the world aint gonna help me ;)