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New Dura Ace? (NOT electric)

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,196
4
I was checking out the new Dura-Ace earlier today....I like it. It has a lot cleaner look with the cables under the tape
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,598
0
Interesting. Moving to under-the-tape cables and levers that don't flop around would make Dura Ace an option for me. (I've been a campy guy for years in part because of those two things.)
About time. Fix the third thing which is no front derailleur trim, and I'll be inclined to ride Dura Ace too.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
I just hope that all previous Shimano components are incompatible with the new 7900 series Dura-Ace.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
STI Levers -

Say farewell to exposed shifter housing. Shimano is making the change to under-the-bar-tape cable routing They refer to it as "integral shift cables". We wonder if Shimano-sponsored pros will find digging deep on the front a but tougher without shift cables to grab on for stability…
"Better access to the lever from upper side with closer pivot." Our interpretation of this means that the shape of the brake hood will be different. We've never enjoyed the deep hook of DA brake hoods, and to our ears it sounds like Shimano is modifying the shape to make it more SRAM/Campy-like. In other words, no more plunging hook, and instead you'll see a flatter hood. Beyond the ergonomic improvement, Shimano also claims this leads to smoother braking.
You get a reach adjustment mechanism. This is a nice feature of SRAM Red, as well. Folks with small hands should be very pleased.
20% shorter stroke to achieve shift engagement on the right lever.
Weight savings thanks to the use of a carbon brake lever and a titanium fixing band & bolt.
Rear Derailleur -

Carbon! The pulley plate will be made from carbon fiber. Shimano is a company built on their commitment to the forging of alloys, so any sort of branching out into composites is a big, big deal.
Increased chain wrap capacity. In other words, you can use a wide range of gears (e.g. a 50/34 & an 11/2Cool without having to resort to a "Triple" rear derailleur.
You get an "enhanced pulling cable method" with an audible click when the shift is complete. But the price of superior shifting is this: Dura Ace 7900 STI Levers and the 7900 Rear Derailleur will not be compatible with current 7800-series Dura Ace.
Front Derailleur -

Shimano claims that your days of trimming the front derailleur are over. No trimming will be required. This is a pretty big coup when you compare it to SRAM, since one big upside of Red (in comparison to their Force and Rival gruppos) was its inclusion of FD trim.
The FD spring tension has been re-tooled to achieve "featherlight downshifting".
Crankset -

Put aside your sugar-plum visions of a DA Carbon crankset. Rather, Shimano has forged their 7900-series aluminum crank with even thinner walls to make it lighter than any production carbon crankset in the marketplace.
When you use the 7900-series crankset with the new 7900-series chain, you'll get no front derailleur rub thanks to its new chainring/spider design. This also allegedly provides improved power transfer, thanks to the superior mating of chain and chainring.
More weight savings comes from its new aluminum/carbon composite BB axle.
Shimano will also introduce a 7950 version of the crankset, with 50/34 chainrings. This will be the first-ever Dura Ace compact crank (a full, what, 7 years since FSA introduced theirs?)
Chain -

The 7900 chain is known as the "Super Narrow" chain. The redesigned outer plate resists chain suck, and the new design of both the inner & outer plate mesh with the chainrings with such precision that Shimano claims it reduces mechanical friction by 0.6%. We're a bit unsure how to parse what that 0.6% converts to…Does that mean an extra 2.4w when you're making a 400w effort? We're unsure, and we're eager for a fuller explanation. Perhaps more important is the fact that Shimano also says it's a quieter chain.
The 7900-series chain has hollow pins and perforated plates to further reduce weight.
Shimano will introduce a "Quick Link" for its 10-speed chains. Our impression is that this means tool-free installation.
Cassette -

Like the chain and the crankset, the cassette sprockets get fine-tuned to optimize shifting, and the cog carrier is a lighter-than-ever aluminum.
You'll see a wider array of cassette ratio options. In addition to all of the options you get in 7800, you'll also see an 11/25, 11/27, and an 11/28. Before you laugh at the 11/28, keep in mind that this is SRAM's #1 selling cassette ratio! All the ratios made in the 7800 will be produced as 7900-series models as well.
Brake Calipers -

Dig this: "Enhanced brake arch proportion." We think this means that you get quicker caliper response when you hit your brake lever, and perhaps better stiffness under heavy braking. We suspect that this is a photo of the new brake. Interestingly, the boys over at the Weight Weenies forum pointed out that this poor rider appears to have his brake shoes on the wrong side…
Lower profile outer cable stop. This improves cable routing, which decreases drag and improves the snappiness of the lever. If you've ever installed a set of Zero Gravity brakes, you know that fine-tuned brake cable routing is something you should never take for granted.
The brake pad compound changes. Shimano claims that the improvement will be most noticeable in the wet, where stopping power improves 210%. In the dry, you should expect a 120% improvement in stopping power.
Add'l titanium hardware saves overall weight.
Flight Deck Computer -

It's still integrated into the STI levers, but the functionality gets much broader -- It includes a heart rate monitor, altimeter, and an inclinometer. It's a full-on 2.4GHz wireless system, and you can even download data wirelessly onto your PC.
A final note on our understanding about backwards compatibility:

Rear Drivetain -- The 7900 system is only compatible with other 7900 components. The 7900 rear derailleur is compatible with 7800-series cassettes, but that's it. There is no other cross-compatibility. This also means that 7800-series components cannot be used in piecemeal with 7900 if your plan is to upgrade one component at a time. More or less, you'll need to upgrade to 7900 STI, rear derailleur, cassette, and chain in one fell swoop.

Front Drivetrain -- Same story. There's an Iron Curtain between 7900 and 7800. The only kinda, sorta compatibility is between the 7900 front derailleur and the 7800 crankset. Shimano states "slower shifting may occur depending on frame dimension" if you choose to mix things like this. We're not sure if "dimension" means frame size or geometry or what. But we can't imagine someone running a full 7800 bike with the exception of a 7900 front derailleur, so it's not something we're terribly worried about.

Brake Systems -- The 7900 STI Levers are compatible with 7800-series brake calipers.

We're looking at a best-case scenario of a late September 2008 delivery timeline. We're sure it'll be all over the '08 Tour de France, and in full force at the Eurobike tradeshow shortly thereafter. But in terms of delivery, if it's before Halloween, we'll be stoked."
Steve's wish is their command.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,432
20,229
Sleazattle
Maybe I am just a knuckle dragging mountainbiker but I have never had any desire to have anything better than my old 9-speed Ultegra. I'm sure this stuff is nicer but can't believe it is worth plunking the extra money down for unless you are an elite racer.
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,598
0
hasn't almost every sti lever since forever had FD trim?
I mean real trim like Campy. Not that crappy one click, one adjust BS that only works if everything is adjusted just perfectly and everything is aligned just right. Good luck using half of the aftermarket cranks out there.....
 

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,196
4
I mean real trim like Campy. Not that crappy one click, one adjust BS that only works if everything is adjusted just perfectly and everything is aligned just right. Good luck using half of the aftermarket cranks out there.....
Can you elaborate? I've never ridden Campy components. Does it click and then allow any amount of adjustment to the point of the next click??
 

nmr8

Monkey
Apr 6, 2007
108
0
Can you elaborate? I've never ridden Campy components. Does it click and then allow any amount of adjustment to the point of the next click??
campy front ergo levers have like 15 distinct clicks for the front derailleur, it's not indexed at all, you just move it until it shifts. so you can trim the derailleur to any position you want.

last week i ran across an old dura ace shifter that behaved very similarly, i think it was a 7400 model or something, almost exactly the same as campy.
 

JoeRay

Monkey
Feb 19, 2004
228
0
In Squalor
Guess I know where end of year bonus is going this year.

Convenient too, it's almost time to do the chain/chain rings/ cassette and jockey wheels on the old 7700. If I put on a chain now I'll get through till then easy.

The best part is I'll be able to say to the other half I'm saving money "toughing it out for a bit longer" and not springing for a wholesal fix up.
 

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,196
4
The best part is I'll be able to say to the other half I'm saving money "toughing it out for a bit longer" and not springing for a wholesal fix up.
:rofl:

You better give an Oscar winning performance or she is gonna know you are trying to pull one over on her
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,432
20,229
Sleazattle
I'm pretty sure that I've not touched the shifting on my road bike since I got it.
:stupid:

In three years all I have done to my roadie is replace the front tire twice, the rear tire 4 times and the chain once. I did clean it once, patched a hole in my bar wrap with electrical tape and may have lubed the chain a few times. By far my biggest problem with it is the crusty layer of salt that collects on the front end from sweat.
 

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,196
4
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/features/shimano_da09_rumours_mar08

Some more info.

A quick connect chain. That's the reason I run a SRAM chain.

Carbon crankset probably not going to be offered as the AL one is stiffer and lighter.

And most surprising, the electric DA with batteries is lighter than the mechanical DA.

Updated flight control with all sorts of goodies.
I was suprised they were able to make a 20% stiffer crank......those cranks are already super stiff
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
I was suprised they were able to make a 20% stiffer crank......those cranks are already super stiff
At some point (maybe already) its got to stop mattering how stiff the cranks are. I did notice they talked about stiffening the chain rings as well.

And I just noticed they made the chain asymmetrical to avoid chain suck (who gets chain suck on a road bike) and increase precision by .6%. Seriously how much better can that get?
 

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,196
4
At some point (maybe already) its got to stop mattering how stiff the cranks are. I did notice they talked about stiffening the chain rings as well.

And I just noticed they made the chain asymmetrical to avoid chain suck (who gets chain suck on a road bike) and increase precision by .6%. Seriously how much better can that get?
A friend was telling about a study he read that compared teh various cranks and chainring, it was suprising to hear how much deflection some of the rings have. As for chain suck, about the only time I've gotten chain suck was shifting from the middle ring to the small ring on my mtb
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,432
20,229
Sleazattle
At some point (maybe already) its got to stop mattering how stiff the cranks are. I did notice they talked about stiffening the chain rings as well.

And I just noticed they made the chain asymmetrical to avoid chain suck (who gets chain suck on a road bike) and increase precision by .6%. Seriously how much better can that get?
I can see how maybe some 230lb proffesional sprinter might need stiffer cranks and 0% of the purchasing population. Of course that will not stop throngs of club riders from buying them because they think it will help them in that sprint to the local Starbucks.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
A friend was telling about a study he read that compared teh various cranks and chainring, it was suprising to hear how much deflection some of the rings have. As for chain suck, about the only time I've gotten chain suck was shifting from the middle ring to the small ring on my mtb
No doubt about the chainrings. I just replaced the drivetrain on a friend's bike and we were comparing the 7700 rings against the 7800 rings. That had to be a huge leap in stiffness. I bet campy addresses rings in their next update.
 

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,196
4
I can see how maybe some 230lb proffesional sprinter might need stiffer cranks and 0% of the purchasing population. Of course that will not stop throngs of club riders from buying them because they think it will help them in that sprint to the local Starbucks.
They just want to make sure its not the bike holding them back, only their ability as a rider :biggrin:
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
1,017
My own world inside my head
You know you can run that link with any shimano/sram compatible chain right, Sram Powerlink works on any HG/IG Chain. Connex also makes one I actually like a little bit better, they also make one for Campy as well





On the note of chains, Anyone have a chance to use the new Mavic chains? You know the one that is supposed to be Universal for Campy/Shimano drivetrains? I have a couple in stock now, Just looking for some feedback before I go reccomending it to a customer
 

H8R

Cranky Pants
Nov 10, 2004
13,959
35
I mean real trim like Campy. Not that crappy one click, one adjust BS that only works if everything is adjusted just perfectly and everything is aligned just right. Good luck using half of the aftermarket cranks out there.....
RTFM. This is not hard to achieve. It's a road bike, it has road bike parts and road bike shifting. It should be set up right.
 

-dustin

boring
Jun 10, 2002
7,155
1
austin
:stupid:

In three years all I have done to my roadie is replace the front tire twice, the rear tire 4 times and the chain once. I did clean it once, patched a hole in my bar wrap with electrical tape and may have lubed the chain a few times. By far my biggest problem with it is the crusty layer of salt that collects on the front end from sweat.
i would not want to wrap those handlebars. ew. i once unwrapped an aluminum bar that had pretty much destroyed because of sweat. not only was the amount of white powder disgusting, the smell was nauseating. there are some gross dudes with nasty sweat riding bikes.
 

-dustin

boring
Jun 10, 2002
7,155
1
austin
Stiffer rings don't make better rings. Specialized claims that the 08 SL rings are stiffer, and shift better than the 07 rings. Assuming all else is the same, as far as manufacturing is concerned, the 08 rings shift like **** compared to the 07 version.

also, a BB30 compatible crank would sell like crazy if more manufacturers would adopt the standard. I believe that it is one of the better standards out there. While I prefer an SI crank, many people that I talk to would rather have the Shimano name on their Cannondales (and Specializeds).
 

H8R

Cranky Pants
Nov 10, 2004
13,959
35
there are some gross dudes with nasty sweat riding bikes.
I worked at a shop in Berkeley. Lots of stanky old men on recumbents. Sweating into those big couchy recumbent seats.


:plthumbsdown:
 

James

Carbon Porn Star
Sep 11, 2001
3,559
0
Danbury, CT
Yeah, yeah, rub it in all of our faces! :) You need to convince Shimano that you can provide killer feedback for R&D and get them to give you the proto DA.
Yeah, that is pretty much *never* going to happen. I don't buy enough stuff from them to be important enough. I'll settle for what I've got now though, which isn't too shabby...:)

Pretty interested in seeing the new stuff though!