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SHOWA Fork?

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
Do we really need another ultra high performance, ultra limited run, ultra expensive, and hard to work on fork? Or a fork that works well, is reliable, easy to work on and doesn't cost 1500+ for 100 bucks in machined and cast parts? Just a thought......
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,191
media blackout
Do we really need another ultra high performance, ultra limited run, ultra expensive, and hard to work on fork? Or a fork that works well, is reliable, easy to work on and doesn't cost 1500+ for 100 bucks in machined and cast parts? Just a thought......
yes. yes we do.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
LoL. I will. Have you ever opened up high end forks? Pretty simple stuff as far as science/engineering go. Certainly simpler than say....an internal combustion engine or any number of parts in a car or something
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
Tell that to the works depts at major moto and offroad racing suspension developers.
They will admit it quite readily actually. Not at all rocket science either. Just simple fluid dynamics. Someone with two years of engineering school could 100% comprehend the most intricate types of suspension and improve upon it, and they routinely do.
 
Jan 18, 2006
89
0
We need as many options as possible, it help grows the sport and create new tech that we can benefit from. I love it!
 

Pbody

Monkey
Oct 30, 2003
341
0
Sweet! Looks like all that R&D didn't go to waste afterall. With the production activity and overhead that Showa already has in motorcycles, autos, and boats, especially motocross, getting forks produced at a low cost could mean a lot of good news for our industry. I would like to assume that every neighborhood motorcycle dealer who is capable of rebuilding my motocross forks will be able to do the same on my mountainbike forks, thus making me a happy cyclist.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
They will admit it quite readily actually. Not at all rocket science either. Just simple fluid dynamics. Someone with two years of engineering school could 100% comprehend the most intricate types of suspension and improve upon it, and they routinely do.
Sure, they can. Getting it to do what you want however, is not as easy as comprehending the theory behind it. Otherwise, we'd already have "the perfect" suspension and the companies behind it wouldn't be blowing millions on it every year.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
They will admit it quite readily actually. Not at all rocket science either. Just simple fluid dynamics. Someone with two years of engineering school could 100% comprehend the most intricate types of suspension and improve upon it, and they routinely do.
exactly, why am I, with NO formal training in mechanical engineering able to modify my $900 marzocchi fork and fix simple, but not negliable problems with it, and improve the overall performance, and understand everything I'm doing (and the "theory"). Oh ya, and I never opened up the fork before, and it took me maybe hour from start to finish? And I'm not incredible mechanically adept.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
Also, i doubt they blow millions of dollars on it for reasons beyond pure scientific curiosity. Small competitive advantages lead to huge sales and pricing advantages in an industry of fools like us who will spend tons of money for (almost) meaningless improvements.
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
Sure, they can. Getting it to do what you want however, is not as easy as comprehending the theory behind it. Otherwise, we'd already have "the perfect" suspension and the companies behind it wouldn't be blowing millions on it every year.
That is why it's 90% R&D, not rocket science.
 

ChrisKring

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
2,399
6
Grand Haven, MI
If it's so easy to set up suspension for the highest level of racer then moto works forks wouldn't be worth $50k. The lead Honda bike designer had a mechanic and a suspension engineer with him at the Master's in '05. Why if it's so easy?

Anyway, any fork from Showa will be outside the price range that most cheap DH racers will pay. Their moto "kit suspension" part to upgrade the factory original internals are $3k+ alone.

So if you consider "improving performance" changing fluid, yes a monkey could do it. If you spent an hour "improving" your fork, I doubt you even cleaned it good. Let alone, cleaning up the ports.
 

yuroshek

Turbo Monkey
Jun 26, 2007
2,438
0
Arizona!
hey i wouldnt mind havein a showa fork on my DH rig. my cousin use to race pro and had showa on his factory rig. some of the best suspension right there boy.
 

jcook90

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2006
1,211
1
Connecticut
Take the guy who made the rear shock for the Millyard bike, some brilliant tank suspension engineer who probably built something in a day that supposedly blows any current rear shocks out of the water. Bike industry needs some of those
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
If it's so easy to set up suspension for the highest level of racer then moto works forks wouldn't be worth $50k. The lead Honda bike designer had a mechanic and a suspension engineer with him at the Master's in '05. Why if it's so easy?

Anyway, any fork from Showa will be outside the price range that most cheap DH racers will pay. Their moto "kit suspension" part to upgrade the factory original internals are $3k+ alone.

So if you consider "improving performance" changing fluid, yes a monkey could do it. If you spent an hour "improving" your fork, I doubt you even cleaned it good. Let alone, cleaning up the ports.
Because it is time consuming? And maybe because a race support team needs to be already familiar with all facets of the race vehicle and able to make fast modifications/rebuilds at the scene of a race? Moto's are vastly more complex than a mountain bike with the addition of the thing called "an engine", which could occupy a head mechanic by itself and probably does.

I agree on the price. I don't expect that to be priced out for widespread use as much as another novelty item such as BOS or the Foes fork.

I consider a thorough basic improvement to be at least: changing the oil, seals, bushings, and o-rings if needed, teflon/grease coating everything where applicable, CLEANING/FLUSHING (hell, put it in an ultrasound machine overnight if you have access to one), re-shimming or re-porting the piston head, resetting air chamber size, replacing spring valve springs or using a different weight if needed, deburring/porting everything where needed, and finally, testing for cavitation if the situation would call for it. Fortunately with the resources available to the mechanically inclined consumer, all of this is quickly becoming more feasible these days. That's the basic stuff, and the higher end moto stuff is really just a detailed expansion upon that. Some of the more recent stuff in the moto world is genuinely innovative though and it will be REALLY cool to see some of it trickle down to MTB suspension.
 

top_dog

Monkey
Jan 27, 2006
209
0
Australia
Personally I reckon a fork with a decent damper is more complex than most machines, there is a lot going on in them. And BOS isn't really a novelty; they've been building DH suspension for about 15 years.:lighten:
 

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
If it's so easy to set up suspension for the highest level of racer then moto works forks wouldn't be worth $50k. The lead Honda bike designer had a mechanic and a suspension engineer with him at the Master's in '05. Why if it's so easy?
Just wanted to point out that there are sport racers on 10k DH bikes, racing for mid pack finishes. Just because money is spent, doesn't mean its required or necessary. ;)

Not agreeing the with the point or disagreeing, just saying.
 

djamgils

Monkey
Aug 31, 2007
349
0
Holland
improving the performance of a machine is exponentially more expensive. To improve a 10K fork is easier(less expensive) then improving a 50K fork. And if it means the difference between first or second place then it could be worth it.
 

Ithnu

Monkey
Jul 16, 2007
961
0
Denver
That is why it's 90% R&D, not rocket science.
Rocket science involves a lot of testing too, there's just a lot more money and explosives involved!

I think the biggest hindrance to suspension engineering for bikes is there isn't near as much money in it as cars or motorcycles. My friend works at Hayes and they don't have that many engineers compared to lets say BMW.
 

Pbody

Monkey
Oct 30, 2003
341
0
And what makes you think they have a low cost in mind?
Like I mentioned, with the production activity and overhead they already have, it would be a pretty safe assumption they could move right into MTB production without a lot of upfront investment dollars, aka costs.

I did say cost, not price. Any entity would want to produce at low cost in order to maximize profit.
 

Wobbler

Monkey
Jan 22, 2006
128
0
Take the guy who made the rear shock for the Millyard bike, some brilliant tank suspension engineer who probably built something in a day that supposedly blows any current rear shocks out of the water. Bike industry needs some of those
Yeah I'm sure he built that shock in a day :disgust::clapping::disgust1:
 

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,196
4
Take the guy who made the rear shock for the Millyard bike, some brilliant tank suspension engineer who probably built something in a day that supposedly blows any current rear shocks out of the water. Bike industry needs some of those
:plthumbsdown:

You're making some big assumptions there.
 

Yeti

Monkey
May 17, 2005
877
0
yeti cave@the beach
Take the guy who made the rear shock for the Millyard bike, some brilliant tank suspension engineer who probably built something in a day that supposedly blows any current rear shocks out of the water. Bike industry needs some of those
Yeah...that guy....Alan Millyard. I'm quite sure the development of that shock took him more than a day if not several sleepless nights getting it right. The way you say it :disgust1: ...anyway,still impressive that he pulled it off if one compares it to the bike industry.
 

P.T.W

Monkey
May 6, 2007
599
0
christchurch nz
Yeah...that guy....Alan Millyard. I'm quite sure the development of that shock took him more than a day if not several sleepless nights getting it right. The way you say it :disgust1: ...anyway,still impressive that he pulled it off if one compares it to the bike industry.
That Millyard bike is one of the most over hyped bikes around....Yes its different,yes the guy that made it has done a good job.
Just what is so ground breaking about it??????
 

spocomptonrider

sportin' the CROCS
Nov 30, 2007
1,412
118
spokanistan
That Millyard bike is one of the most over hyped bikes around....Yes its different,yes the guy that made it has done a good job.
Just what is so ground breaking about it??????
It is sorta over hyped, but there are some cool/good ideas there, Dirt did a test/ once over on it a few months back, plus the new one has a single sided swing arm and folds in half. I like the fact that the drivetrain is completely enclosed, think of a timing chain in a car. Rarely needs replacement because in a closed environment, it is much easier to keep a chain happy and void of any outside muck.
 

FR4life.

Monkey
Nov 2, 2004
606
0
The Bay
The shock and the drivetrain. It's silent and its totally sealed.
Indeed. In my opinion, that's the future of mountain biking. Internal gearing should be standard. conventional drivetrains will always be broken need to be replaced soon enough, and will always make horrible noises. I also have always felt that inverted forks would perform better on bikes given the right design and testing. Significantly less unsprung weight, and if made well, I think an inverted fork could be equally as stiff as top end conventional forks.
 
Sep 20, 2007
443
0
Champaign, IL
The problem is that to make an really stiff inverted fork I think that you need a redesigned hub. Some manufacturers (take BOS for example) did not want to make consumers buy a new proprietary hub as well to help keep cost down. While it is good to keep cost down, I would hate to see progress hindered because of it. I think if it is truly better, market it. If it's that much better enough people should jump on to drive cost down.... in theory.....
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,908
634
The problem is that to make an really stiff inverted fork I think that you need a redesigned hub. Some manufacturers (take BOS for example) did not want to make consumers buy a new proprietary hub as well to help keep cost down. While it is good to keep cost down, I would hate to see progress hindered because of it. I think if it is truly better, market it. If it's that much better enough people should jump on to drive cost down.... in theory.....
BOS is so good that it was able to go back in time and invent non-inverted lowers before anybody else had thought of it, just so people wouldn't have to use proprietary hubs.

BOS built the castle it was born in with its own hands
 
Sep 20, 2007
443
0
Champaign, IL
BOS is so good that it was able to go back in time and invent non-inverted lowers before anybody else had thought of it, just so people wouldn't have to use proprietary hubs.

BOS built the castle it was born in with its own hands
I wasn't just spewing random sh*t.... If you read on the BOS site it talks about how they initially wanted to make the fork inverted but decided against it so that they could run a standard 20mm front hub. I was just using it as an example. :disgust1: