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New Dave Camp Special

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Monkey
Oct 23, 2001
548
6
Salt Lake City, UT
Very Cool!

BCD did something very similar to that a few years back. Hayes bought a similar system called "Pete Speed" a few years ago, but has not done a thing with it.
 

dcamp29

Monkey
Feb 14, 2004
589
63
Colorado
Very Cool!

BCD did something very similar to that a few years back. Hayes bought a similar system called "Pete Speed" a few years ago, but has not done a thing with it.


yeah- i saw BCD's after i had started drawing this one up. it was kind of a bummer to reinvent something but cool that we think so similar.
 

Damo

Short One Marshmallow
Sep 7, 2006
4,603
27
French Alps
So cool to be able to turn those ideas in your head into something tangible.

What a great job!
 

Lollapalooza

Monkey
Jan 22, 2007
527
0
I've been toying with this idea for a while now. Does it shift slowly when you're not running a 1:1 ratio from the cassette to the cog?
 
Jan 29, 2005
216
0
This being ridemonkey, I figure I'll ask the question that will certainly be asked...

How much does it weigh?



Looks freakin' sweet! The simplicity of the whole thing is excellent, and the fact that you used existing standards to make it all work.
 

dcamp29

Monkey
Feb 14, 2004
589
63
Colorado
Thats awsome. Still mig welding them together?

Is it a 5 speed? whats the overal gear range?
it is a 5 speed- i think the cassette is a 11-17 so whatever that works out to.

and yes the shifting is a little sluggish because the chain is moving relatively slow. however-when you can shift at anytime this problem kind of goes away.

weight (as shown on littermag) 43.5 lbs. with 2 ply intense tires and xc tubes. i think the cranks/pedals would explode under real dh riding though

budget: $150 for metal, $25 bearings, $75 for deraileur and maybe $50 more for random stuff so $300

also my mig welds are getting better...

 

ÆX

Turbo Monkey
Sep 8, 2001
4,920
17
NM
yeah- i saw BCD's after i had started drawing this one up. it was kind of a bummer to reinvent something but cool that we think so similar.

LOL, i didn't know that. funny.
same thing happened to GT
when i did the first nexus bike.

of course i was on the reverse end of that deal
when i saw the Italian gearbox. makes you feel
bad, yeah, but there are all kinds of personal
tweeks you want to do on a frame when you
make it yourself.

sounds old of me but i am proud of you david!
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
LOL, i didn't know that. funny.
same thing happened to GT
when i did the first nexus bike.

of course i was on the reverse end of that deal
when i saw the Italian gearbox. makes you feel
bad, yeah, but there are all kinds of personal
tweeks you want to do on a frame when you
make it yourself.

sounds old of me but i am proud of you david!

That Italian gearbox is nice, good ratios, but too bulky and unnecessary. I'd rather ride yours or daves.

Aren't you guys scared a big company will snatch your idea, patent it, so even you can't produce it? That's a serious question.


That's why I'm scared to show you mine w/out a provisional patent (w/two kids and my vid project I have no time)
 

sriracha

Monkey
Jun 9, 2006
496
0
805
do you notice a lot of drag created by the constantly moving chain?


if i kick my pedals backwards, i only get maybe 2 revolutions of the cranks, from all the drag. where as if i spin my rear wheel, it will coast for a long time.
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
You might get another gear and better shifting if you use a 10spd road derailer and cogset;) It's tighter and shifts quicker too. They may even have stronger springs.
 

I.van

Monkey
Apr 15, 2007
188
0
Australia
That Italian gearbox is nice, good ratios, but too bulky and unnecessary. I'd rather ride yours or daves.

Aren't you guys scared a big company will snatch your idea, patent it, so even you can't produce it? That's a serious question.


That's why I'm scared to show you mine w/out a provisional patent (w/two kids and my vid project I have no time)
If it's already public knowledge, how can it be patented?
 
Apr 16, 2006
392
0
Golden, CO
Aren't you guys scared a big company will snatch your idea, patent it, so even you can't produce it? That's a serious question.

That's why I'm scared to show you mine w/out a provisional patent (w/two kids and my vid project I have no time)
In the US I believe you get a "1 year grace period" after public disclosure in which you are allotted the right to claim the patent.
Japan it's 6 months, not sure about the ROW, i think its brutal in Asia and Europe tho.

And with your patent Idea, you may have something clever, but its probably not "new" if its just related to the swingarm, however i could be wrong, sometimes its okay to collaborate with other people but you don't hafta share specifics. Look through the uspto.gov, freepatentsonline.com and patentstorm.com for whats been done, and whats covered under the often broad and/or vague patents filed in the last 10-20 years for bikes, motorcycles and just vehicle suspension in general.

It's a clever idea, shimano's done the freewheeling front gearset before, but never in a "gearbox" fashion.

Once he trys and patents it, he'll hafta defend it as well, and if a "big company" wants to challenge him, eeks. For instance, DW with his approved "vehicle suspension" patent VS Powerhouse Giant (hopefully dw wins if this goes down). And Specialized Vs. Stratos (i think it was stratos). One of them has a few more bucks for court than the other usually. Maybe the best route is just selling the idea unless your willing to market your idea out to other companies for royalties and try and make enough to file the patent and hire defense if neccesary. You do have a point tho spinteck - XC would be a better target market with 20X more chance to make a buck.

That or just ride and don't worry haha :cheers:
 

TomBo

Monkey
Jan 13, 2004
300
0
Calgary,Alberta
I have toyed with the same basic lay out. Being a free hub on the crank axle to a normal shifter / cassette on the main pivot. I however never work passed the doodling / dreaming stage. I really need to learn Solid Works or something. My 3D planing / spacial awareness sucks...

Thats amazing to see someone complete one from scratch. A side from BDC that is.

So who is going to start selling these puppies?
 

dcamp29

Monkey
Feb 14, 2004
589
63
Colorado
That Italian gearbox is nice, good ratios, but too bulky and unnecessary. I'd rather ride yours or daves.

Aren't you guys scared a big company will snatch your idea, patent it, so even you can't produce it? That's a serious question.


That's why I'm scared to show you mine w/out a provisional patent (w/two kids and my vid project I have no time)
i guess i don't really care if a big company steals this design... hell it would be a good thing if someone could make a dialed version and make it in larger #'s.

i just don't have the time or money to do a patent.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,563
24,182
media blackout
i guess i don't really care if a big company steals this design... hell it would be a good thing if someone could make a dialed version and make it in larger #'s.

i just don't have the time or money to do a patent.
you just love bikes and designing stuff eh? :cheers:
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
i guess i don't really care if a big company steals this design... hell it would be a good thing if someone could make a dialed version and make it in larger #'s.

i just don't have the time or money to do a patent.
Provisional patent is around 90$ and is good for one year, allowing you to sell the design, find financing or make your own proto's. I'm from an old PA steel town, so any shop can make a better frame once the drawings are given to them in a standard format. My buddy and I welded a proto, but I've kept it under wraps until I can get it in a full suspension frame and drawings to a local machine shop. Once you have drawings, any shop can make it and the drawings can go into your provisional patent. I don't know if it is patentable, but a provisional patent will let you know that for cheap and then you can try to sell it.

I'd rather see a guy like you build a brand or make a name for yourself than a big hollywood bike corp. My personal feeling is that this can be WAY bigger than your DC 10. Good luck and feel free to PM me.

Nat
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
The benefits are obvious, but I'll list them and then stop killin' this thread;)

-normal parts (as you stated)
- gears are now suspended weight.
-weight is centerd
- rear wheel is much lighter
- you can use a standard single speed wheel, so dishing will be much stronger and a BMX freewheel will be lighter and easier to replace than a cassette body
-Adjustable chainstay length rear dropouts w/out derailer compications
-no more chain slap
-efficient concentric drive
- easier to make adjustable geometry w/single swing arm design
-better chainline

more??
 

xy9ine

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
2,940
353
vancouver eastside
Aren't you guys scared a big company will snatch your idea, patent it, so even you can't produce it? That's a serious question.
i'm curious if honda and/or hayes-petespeed already have patents in place that would hinder production of dérailleur based gearboxes by anyone else. could be a sucky scenario that would stifle development.

dc - great work. homebuilt bikes rock. if only i had the time (and skills). riding your own creations must be so cool.
 

Nagaredama

Turbo Monkey
Nov 15, 2004
1,596
2
Manhattan Beach, CA USA
Is everyone forgetting Honda already used this same "gearbox" on the RN01? All the gearbox was a dérailleur in a box.

Dave's execution seems a bit more complicated but looks easier to produce.

I met a kid who on his trails bike replaced the chainring with a BMX freewheel and ziptied the cassette to the spokes so that the chain would always spin allowing him to switch gears whenever he was moving. Wish I would have taken a picture of it.





 

ÆX

Turbo Monkey
Sep 8, 2001
4,920
17
NM
I
I met a kid who on his trails bike replaced the chainring with a BMX freewheel and ziptied the cassette to the spokes so that the chain would always spin allowing him to switch gears whenever he was moving. Wish I would have taken a picture of it.
G]
can go back even further.

gripshift b/f it was SRAM made some proto type
front freewheel chaining on xc bikes so you
could shift while coasting.

the freewheel was too slow, ratchet drag
would cause the cain to go slack, throw
and if got jammed break the der off.

i don't see a normal der using a cage to keep chain
tension ever working well.
 

EVRAC

Monkey
Jun 21, 2004
757
19
Port Coquitlam, B.C., Canada
i'm curious if honda and/or hayes-petespeed already have patents in place that would hinder production of dérailleur based gearboxes by anyone else. could be a sucky scenario that would stifle development.

dc - great work. homebuilt bikes rock. if only i had the time (and skills). riding your own creations must be so cool.
Both these companies have publicly announced that they were dropping these projects. This invalidates their patents. You have to "work" a patent. Everyone can now go nuts with diab designs.

dc- My highest congrats. Very nice work. Enjoy riding it and I wish you tonnes of future success.
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
gripshift b/f it was SRAM made some proto type
front freewheel chaining on xc bikes so you
could shift while coasting.

the freewheel was too slow, ratchet drag
would cause the cain to go slack, throw
and if got jammed break the der off.
Isn't SRAM coming out w/that hammerschmidt thing? Sounds like a front derailer freewheel mechanism to me.

BCD's and Dave's design are simple, light, with a normal right side drive. Honda's was too specialized with unique parts. Did they patent the position, mounts or other stuff?? I'd have to file a provisional patent or talk to an attorny. Provisional patents are cheaper.


I'm so sick of chain tensioners/guides and ripping off rear derailers- maybe it's an east coast thing. Dave's bike solves those problems, making riding and racing easier. Hell, it would be worth it just to have adjustable rear dropouts!
 
Apr 16, 2006
392
0
Golden, CO
Isn't SRAM coming out w/that hammerschmidt thing? Sounds like a front derailer freewheel mechanism to me.

"with a normal right side drive."
The Hammerscmidt is just an epicyclic gearset jammed into the space of the front chainrings. It works similar to internally geared hubs. It's only 3 speed (at most) as well.

With "diab" designs you can use either side as the drive side on the hub or cranks - espesh if you get creative with the "rear hub".
 

ÆX

Turbo Monkey
Sep 8, 2001
4,920
17
NM
dave - is the freewheel free to move laterally?

i think the one on the honda does.
no it doesn't look like it does. but with only 5 cogs and
the length of the EFF bb-diab there would be no chain line issues.

that is one of the reasons he might of put the pivot up there.
 

c2001

Paparazzi
Aug 10, 2001
1,093
0
where everyone is
do you guys ever remember a Ross 10-speed bike that had the freewheel in the bb, so you could shift while coasting? that was 20 years ago at least. i tried to find pics, but didn't see anything.

camp rules. he should work on nucUlar boats or something.
 

dcamp29

Monkey
Feb 14, 2004
589
63
Colorado
dave - is the freewheel free to move laterally?

i think the one on the honda does.
no- it doesn't the freewheel is welded onto the spindle.

i figured it wouldn't have to move with only 5 gears as the chainline isn't too bad at either extreme
 

xy9ine

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
2,940
353
vancouver eastside
i really like the premise of this type of design in that can use a minimum of proprietary bits, and is easily user serviceable. i like the open design as well. dérailleurs invariably need to be adjusted from time to time & having to open a box to access it would be a pain. be cool if one could somehow utilize a standard crank/bb arrangement so the only proprietary part would be the cassette carrier/jackshaft doohickey (be difficult to drive the inboard cassette with an outboard chainring though).
 
Apr 16, 2006
392
0
Golden, CO
no- it doesn't the freewheel is welded onto the spindle.
Looks like your running a 2pc crank, so does that mean you can't remove the crankset with the freewheel being welded on? Even with a 3pc i can't see it being removable unless you can rock it back and forth enough. BTW the mig welds on that frame look 100% better than the bird droppings on the DC 1 haha, almost look tig'd.
 

CRoss

Turbo Monkey
Nov 20, 2006
1,329
0
The Ranch
Having the freewheel in the front has been around a long time. I can't tell you how many times I have done tune ups on 10 speeds with them. It does add to the drag of the drive train while coasting. Mod bikes in trials used to always have the freewheel mounted to the cranks. I cannot remember the logic behind this.

Cranks setup for a standard freewheel: