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UCI to require points to race World Cup in 09

TheInedibleHulk

Turbo Monkey
May 26, 2004
1,886
0
Colorado
With 4 races plus US champs, anyone who is good enough to be giving WC a try should be able to get plenty of points. Of course theres always the issue of scheduling. For example if someone this year got 20 points at snowmass and vermont, they would not process in time for them to race the canadian world cups.

Mike alluded to a pattern I was beginning to notice... which is the UCI getting more and more money from the riders and promoters in order to fufill their rules. I guess thats the way the world works though. I agree with Mike that Americans are probably not the real muppets who everyone is complaining about. Our guy Caleb Cambern is in europe right now. He is fresh to the semi-pro class, which counts as UCI elite. You might think that sounds bad, but he caught his 30 second man in quali's after crashing. Thats muppetry for you. Dont blame Amurica.
 

MikeMac

Monkey
May 18, 2006
156
0
Please pass along a big hello to Caleb (my kidney stone brother-in-arms). tell him that everyone at the MSC misses him and wishes him well.
MM
 

tsamps

Chimp
May 6, 2007
58
0
Mike- Similair to nastar but without pacesetters. Here is a breakdown:

Penalty-Best 5 points at start averaged with the best 5 points in the top 10 at the finish.

Race points-The distance of the winner you are. There is a calculation based on the length (time) of the course (points per second), which is multiplied by the time off the winner you are. A longer course will have less points per second, and a shorter one will have more. So in summation, race points are the points per second multiplied by the amount off the winner. Winner will have 0 race points.

The penalty is added to the Race points to get your score. Average together your two best scores to get your points.

At a world cup, the penalty will be really low, because the fastest guys are really fast and therefore have fewer points. But the race points are going to be higher because you are farther off.

At a local race, the penalty will be higher, because the level of competition will not be as high. But your race points will be lower because you will be closer to the winner.

This way, in theory, whether you are at a world cup, or a local race you will score around your points.

Its hard to describe, hope that helps.
 

ska todd

Turbo Monkey
Oct 10, 2001
1,776
0
Ok, so I decided to pop open the UCI rule book and find the points table. For Nat Champs you score 20 points by finishing 11th. See pg 59

Now, looking at the CIA factbook page, we'll take the country of Slovenia (selected b/c they were the 1st WC round, not poking at them or their riders at all) which is described as being "slightly smaller than New Jersey" and having a pop of 2M. The US in the CIA factbook is described as "more than twice the size of the European Union" with a population of 303M.

Now, some data to put this in some sort of perspective (not that this matters but it was fun to look up the numbers). Comparing by population, Suffolk County, NY where I live is similar to Slovenia. I can make an argument that I am among the 11 fastest downhillers in Suffolk County (are there 11 DH'ers in this county??). Now, based on land area, is the 11th fastest resident of the State of NJ World Cup fast? This is how "muppets" get to race World Cups.

How much to the first rider who wears a Kermit the Frog outfit in a World Cup?

-ska todd
 
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j-posch

Monkey
Jun 25, 2007
122
0
Ok, so I decided to pop open the UCI rule book and find the points table. For Nat Champs you score 20 points by finishing 11th. See pg 59

Now, looking at the CIA factbook page, we'll take the country of Slovenia (selected b/c they were the 1st WC round, not poking at them or their riders at all) which is described as being "slightly smaller than New Jersey" and having a pop of 2M. The US in the CIA factbook is described as "more than twice the size of the European Union" with a population of 303M.

Now, some data to put this in some sort of perspective (not that this matters but it was fun to look up the numbers). Comparing by population, Suffolk County, NY where I live is similar to Slovenia. I can make an argument that I am among the 11 fastest downhillers in Suffolk County (are there 11 DH'ers in this county??). Now, based on land area, is the 11th fastest resident of the State of NJ World Cup fast? This is how "muppets" get to race World Cups.

How much to the first rider who wears a Kermit the Frog outfit in a World Cup?

-ska todd

I read earlier about croatian riders not being up to scratch at maribor. Croatia has over double the population of Slovenia and I have a feeling not as many good riders. I have raced in Slovenia and they have some fast elite riders and think one or two have had top 40 finishes, you won't see more than one or two at world cups, except Maribor. Ireland has a population of over 7 million and other than ben reid no other qualifiers, but you will always see them well represented. I have raced in europe against guys from other european nations, some big countries and there WC riders would struggle to make a podium at British NPS at senior level let alone qualify for a world cup and we have an expert and elite category above that. It is a general rule by our cycling federation, that only elite riders are allowed to go to world cups. Since the trade team rule come into effect, a few of our top experts got onto a trade team, but had to be registered in another country as our federation said the riders were not good enough, people such as Adam Brayton who finished 6th at Champery. A lot of it is down to the countries cycling federations, some just seem to send anyone and other will let hardly anyone go.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Why not have a pre-qualifier instead? Say you are a guy/gal who wants to see if you are fast enough, you show up at the WC venue and have a Tuesday practice session and then a Wednesday qualifier. If you post a time that is with x % of what the top pros ride than you are allowed to proceed to the other training sessions and the Saturday qualifier. If you already have UCI points you don't have to go through that pre-qualifier.
This would give local heroes and talented juniors a chance to qualify on their hometrack and race a WC but will keep the real show free of "muppets". And it keeps our sport interesting because it enables talented crossovers from other sports to try out DH racing. If all those rules that the UCI has now would have been already in place I bet we would never have seen people like Palmer racing a WC.
This idea has a lot of merit. And it becomes another potential revenue stream for promoters and the UCI.
 

Mani_UT

Monkey
Nov 25, 2001
644
0
SLC, UT
The US in the CIA factbook is described as "more than twice the size of the European Union" with a population of 303M.

You're whole point is quite valid.
Just a little correction though: the European Union has about 490 millions people these days!!! The US are twice the size of the EU in area not population!
 

Akula_7

Monkey
Nov 15, 2004
917
0
Ireland has a population of over 7 million and other than ben reid no other qualifiers, but you will always see them well represented.
Pre-Famine of 1845 Ireland had a pop. of 7-8million.

Now where at a lovely 4,156,119 for the Republic. If you add in the 1.7 mil or so in Northern Ireland then we are at somewhere around the 5.8million mark.
 

j-posch

Monkey
Jun 25, 2007
122
0
Pre-Famine of 1845 Ireland had a pop. of 7-8million.

Now where at a lovely 4,156,119 for the Republic. If you add in the 1.7 mil or so in Northern Ireland then we are at somewhere around the 5.8million mark.
Yeah included the north, as Ireland has one team. I read with immigrants etc it is now over 7 million.
 

ska todd

Turbo Monkey
Oct 10, 2001
1,776
0
You're whole point is quite valid.
Just a little correction though: the European Union has about 490 millions people these days!!! The US are twice the size of the EU in area not population!
I meant land area here, not in relation to population. Sorta to prove a point that by land size the US is 2X as big but has one national championship. The EU at 1/2 the size has 27 national champions. Sorry for any confusion.

-ska todd
 

woof

Monkey
May 17, 2005
426
0
Just saw this in the weekly USA Cycling email------

The inscription period for the 2009 UCI Mountain Bike International Calendar is now open. Any event wishing to be on the 2009 UCI Mountain Bike International Calendar must apply before June 20, 2008. UCI MTB International Calendar events give U.S. pro racers the opportunity to earn valuable UCI ranking points required for participation in UCI World Cups. In addition, UCI MTB International Calendar events have the highest ranking value on the USA Cycling-MTB National Calendars (MBNC). For more about how to apply to be on the 2009 UCI Mountain Bike Calendar, click here.

So do we need to push for the more popular races to get signed up? I didn't read thru the application, but is it just pay the fleas and it becomes a point giving race?
 

DH Rules

Chimp
Jul 13, 2006
90
0
On the trails of WNC - Mostly
This issue has been debated endlessly. It is really quite simple; USA riders don't have the UCI points to compete in World Cups as there was not a single gravity race in the USA in 2007 that had UCI accreditation. I believe it's a UCI Vs USAC dispute and its time that USAC (probably the best funded National Cycling authority in the world) swallowed their pride and recognized that UCI is where its at. Pay them the fees and make sure that every gravity race of any significance in this country has a UCI category rating. It is unforgivable that the USA National Championships and the so called "National Mountain Bike Series" did not contribute a single UCI point with which the leading riders could go out and compete with the best of the rest of world.

Fix this and the muppets will be eliminated and who needs "UCI Teams". Every competent US rider will get the opportunity to race WC based on pure talent and UCI points earned in their country.
 

Lex

Monkey
Dec 6, 2001
594
0
Massachusetts
Does anyone have a quick estimate of what it would cost an event to get a Class 1 designation (purse requirments, paying for officials, UCI fees)? I'm just curious if it's a financially viable thing for a smaller event to do for the purpose of drawing a larger number of entries looking to gain UCI points. Would people travel outside their normal racing area for the possibility?
 

MikeMac

Monkey
May 18, 2006
156
0
About $1500 to inscript, about $5000 for officials (travel and fees, lodging not included) and about 8000 per discipline in prize money. First year events are only eligible for Class 2 status though. fees would be about the same but the prize money would be about $3000.

MM
 

Rip

Mr. Excitement
Feb 3, 2002
7,327
1
Over there somewhere.
Why can't they just keep it as is and run it like the following.

Top 20 in the wc points are locked in the race.
For those in from 21-50 they need to get in based on time but will race.
For the others, in order to get in, they need to be within like 30 seconds of the average qualifying time of the Top 20.
 

Akula_7

Monkey
Nov 15, 2004
917
0
Yeah included the north, as Ireland has one team. I read with immigrants etc it is now over 7 million.

But immigrants can't race Downhill for Ireland can they, can't get a Cyciling Ireland Licence unless you have an Irish passport, so ya know no Polish or Nigerians shreeding for us on the WC scence.

So Basically I win Pop. of 5.8 million not including the immigrants that can't ride n an Irish jersey....because they 'aint Irish! I win!
 

j-posch

Monkey
Jun 25, 2007
122
0
But immigrants can't race Downhill for Ireland can they, can't get a Cyciling Ireland Licence unless you have an Irish passport, so ya know no Polish or Nigerians shreeding for us on the WC scence.

So Basically I win Pop. of 5.8 million not including the immigrants that can't ride n an Irish jersey....because they 'aint Irish! I win!
Yeah but when anyone quotes countries populations these sometimes include immigrants, not just people with that countries passport.
 

Lex

Monkey
Dec 6, 2001
594
0
Massachusetts
About $1500 to inscript, about $5000 for officials (travel and fees, lodging not included) and about 8000 per discipline in prize money. First year events are only eligible for Class 2 status though. fees would be about the same but the prize money would be about $3000.

MM
Ouch! So it's not something that would even be a break even proposition for a regional race or series looking to grab a wider appeal. You'd have to see a pretty large uptick in entrys to offset those sorts of costs.
 

ÆX

Turbo Monkey
Sep 8, 2001
4,920
17
NM
It sounds like Downhill needs a points system like ski racing. The ski racing points system is based off of two things. A-how fast the fastest people in the race are (the penalty). And B- how far off the fastest people you are (race points). The closer to the leaders you are, the less race points. So for an example, if the average points of the fastest 5 people is 20. And you are 3 seconds off the winner, 30 race points. than your points for the day are 50. If you have a 50 point race, and a 70 point race, then your points will average to 60. The fastest guys in the world will have right around 0. This points system may sound complicated, but it is very effective. Basically, you can go to any race, be it a world cup, or a local fun race, and still score around where you should. For the uci, they could just cap the race at all racers with less than 30 points. This should eliminate what general lee calls muppets.
exactlly
 

dh gangster

Monkey
Jul 31, 2006
366
0
P en Doubleyou
bump.
and question:

So I got 3rd in Jr. X at the UCI 1 Snowmass, so that means I got 30 points right?
With those points could I race at Mont St. Anne in 2009 if I got there on my own accord and purchased a UCI liscense? Or would I have to be on a trade team as well?

thanks
 

Pbody

Monkey
Oct 30, 2003
341
0
So I got 3rd in Jr. X at the UCI 1 Snowmass, so that means I got 30 points right?
With those points could I race at Mont St. Anne in 2009 if I got there on my own accord and purchased a UCI liscense? Or would I have to be on a trade team as well?

thanks
No. UCI points are only awarded to those who hold an Elite UCI license and race in the Elite class.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
No. UCI points are only awarded to those who hold an Elite UCI license and race in the Elite class.
Not quite. They are awarded to any rider with a Junior Ex OR Elite license, however, there is a catch. The race has to be in a combined category. Ie: Not Junior Ex.

Canadian Nationals are run this way. Junior Ex and Elite are run combined, so that the Junior Ex riders can win UCI points. One of my riders received 9 points at nationals last weekend (he was 3rd in Junior Ex, and about 19th overall).
 

MikeMac

Monkey
May 18, 2006
156
0
1. be at least 17
2. hold a valid UCI license
3. race as an 'elite' (pro class) in an inscripted race
 

- seb

Turbo Monkey
Apr 10, 2002
2,924
1
UK
FWIW I believe in the UK you can race in any category, and then it just comes down to the fastest times of the day across all categories. So for example a veteran (40-50 cat) could theoretically finish 9th overall and get some UCI points.
 

dh gangster

Monkey
Jul 31, 2006
366
0
P en Doubleyou
Not quite. They are awarded to any rider with a Junior Ex OR Elite license, however, there is a catch. The race has to be in a combined category. Ie: Not Junior Ex.

Canadian Nationals are run this way. Junior Ex and Elite are run combined, so that the Junior Ex riders can win UCI points. One of my riders received 9 points at nationals last weekend (he was 3rd in Junior Ex, and about 19th overall).
So if I buy a UCI Liscense and go race Canadian nationals I can get UCI points?
So you said by getting third he got 9 points, so the point scale is obviously different. How does it work then?

Thanks for your help
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
So if I buy a UCI Liscense and go race Canadian nationals I can get UCI points?
So you said by getting third he got 9 points, so the point scale is obviously different. How does it work then?

Thanks for your help
No, National Championships are only for riders of their respective countries. Ie: You have to race at Mt Snow. You won't get points.
 

General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
0
The 802
So if I buy a UCI Liscense and go race Canadian nationals I can get UCI points?
So you said by getting third he got 9 points, so the point scale is obviously different. How does it work then?

Thanks for your help
no, he said he got 3rd among the juniors and about 19th overall.

the point scale is identical for every national championship raced in any country. He got something like 19th in the combined elite/jrx DH so he got 19th place points. he finished 3rd among the juniors who were entered so he gets a 3rd place ranking in his class but not 3rd place points.

and even if you somehow got points at mt. snow by finishing in about the top 12 in elite (i think 12th gets 20 pts) you couldn't do any of the upcoming world cups anyway, the registration deadline with USAC cycling will have already passed.
 
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dh gangster

Monkey
Jul 31, 2006
366
0
P en Doubleyou
the point scale is identical for every national championship raced in any country. He got something like 20th in the combined elite/jrx DH so he got 20th place points. he finished 3rd among the juniors who were entered so he gets a 3rd place ranking in his class but not 3rd place points.
Oh. So then National Championships have a different point scale than a UCI 1 level race? Because a UCI 1 only awards points 15 deep if I am correct.