I'd always been under the impression that the energy required to split the oxygen from the Hydrogen was immense, far more than you would get from burning the resultant gases?
the alternative personal transportation thread
Speaking of little sh!t boxes, I am going to see if I fit in one of these after work:
Daihatsu Hijet
1.3lt engine, 60mph and 50+mpg. A dealer in town has a few out front, I figured it would work for a 2 person shuttle.
Daihatsu Hijet
1.3lt engine, 60mph and 50+mpg. A dealer in town has a few out front, I figured it would work for a 2 person shuttle.
Yeah there's still alot to figure out there. Other ways include using some toxic chemicals (the particulars I can't remember, but it obvioiusly doesn't help), or well apparently they've been able to do it with some petrol product...well damn that doesn't help either. There's alot of grants/funding right now for figuring out a better way to get hydrogen.
i'd think those tires would kill the efficiency, no? did you fit in it?Speaking of little sh!t boxes, I am going to see if I fit in one of these after work:
Daihatsu Hijet
1.3lt engine, 60mph and 50+mpg. A dealer in town has a few out front, I figured it would work for a 2 person shuttle.
i saw a Chevy Tahoe Hybrid in the flesh. it had many an acre of vinyl on the door panels, liftgate, and rear window declaring that it is a HYBRID to all who might glance in its direction. at $55k (?) no wonder they're trickling off the lots... next up on the failboat is Dodge, who released their 5.3L Hemi Hybrid Durango with a 20 mpg rating and a $45k pricetag.
Those are off-road tires mounted on ATV wheels (a common mod). I do fit, but unfortunately they are not street legal in Oregon. I think it's because of DEQ, but I haven't gotten any straight answers.
They are imported from Japan with an EPA governor that limits them to 25mph
I hope they get around that at some point because at 50+mpg they would make for a fun 2 bike shuttle. The dealer has one LHD and one RHD.
new labeling for cali-market cars. seems much like the info currently found at www.fueleconomy.gov
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25284062/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25284062/
SACRAMENTO - New-car shoppers in California will see an easy-to-read label revealing a vehicle's greenhouse gas emissions as soon as next month. The California Air Resources Board said Thursday the window sticker will give consumers the information they need to choose a cleaner-burning car or light truck.
"This label will arm consumers with the information they need to choose a vehicle that saves gas, reduces greenhouse gas emissions and helps fight smog all at once," board chairman Mary Nichols said in a statement. "Consumer choice is an especially powerful tool in our fight against climate change. We look forward to seeing these stickers on 2009 model cars as they start hitting the showrooms in the coming months."
Approved earlier by California lawmakers and supported by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, the regulation was signed into law this week by California Secretary of State Debra Bowen.
The data for the scores is being provided by auto companies to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.
"The environmental performance label will provide two scores on a scale of 1-10, a Smog Score and a Global Warming Score," the board stated. "The average new car will score five on both scales. The higher the score the less impact the car has on the environment."
For example, the Union of Concerned Scientists estimates a Toyota Corolla will score 7 points and a Dodge Caravan will score 3. The Honda Civic Hybrid will score 9 points, it figures.
All new vehicles sold in California must feature the label by Jan. 1, 2009.
The label itself incorporates a smog index label used in California on new vehicles since 1998.
The Air Resources Board noted that Californians purchase some two million new vehicles each year.
"The 25 million vehicles on our roads travel about 900 million miles each day," it stated, "Daily, this produces 2,288 tons of smog precursor emissions and 350,000 tons of global warming gas emissions."
The board also hosts a Web site, www.DriveClean.ca.gov, for consumers on the cleanest, most efficient cars on the market.
fuel cell car for sale today!
no, really!
i could get a book, sure, but that's silly when i have a huge library system for my use.)
no, really!
(why am i looking at kids toys? my payment for a gig i recently played was a $75 bn.com gift card, and i'm trying to decide between splurging for the above fuel cell car, a sweet-ass power house kit that's all about renewable energy and living -- i highly recommend reading the description on the linked page, an overpriced microcontroller kit, or something that reflects my mental age of 5 like a r/c car.Fuel Cell Car and Experiment Kit by Thames and Kosmos. for ages 10 and up. $107 for barnes and noble members. will carry you around if you are about the size of a small mouse.
i could get a book, sure, but that's silly when i have a huge library system for my use.)
Global Warming Score??!!!
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHA....!!
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHA....!!
the innards of my currently inoperable hub motor. note that the Hall effect sensor on the left is clearly unlike its two peers.
closeup:
now i have the fun task of heating up the epoxy, chiseling the little dude out, putting the new one in place oriented correctly, then soldering those little colored leads back up.
11 PM update:
pesky little bugger chiseled out after heating epoxy with the soldering iron:
new sensor in place after reaming out the hole a bit with an awl:
new sensor bathed in epoxy. 90 second curing is too fast! last time i buy that stuff. note dabs of electrical tape covering Worlds Ugliest Solder Joints (TM). it's probably been a dozen years since i last soldered in earnest.
finally, a high tech mounting solution for the desiccant bags. the stator is stationary (fixed to the axle), as it's the hub shell that rotates about it, so i figured this mounting setup might do.
if this all doesn't work and the Hall is still bad then i'm just going to order a pedal-first (vs. immediate start) controller and sell my current one. pedal-first controllers don't rely on Hall sensors so this problem would be guaranteed to not recur.
closeup:
now i have the fun task of heating up the epoxy, chiseling the little dude out, putting the new one in place oriented correctly, then soldering those little colored leads back up.
11 PM update:
pesky little bugger chiseled out after heating epoxy with the soldering iron:
new sensor in place after reaming out the hole a bit with an awl:
new sensor bathed in epoxy. 90 second curing is too fast! last time i buy that stuff. note dabs of electrical tape covering Worlds Ugliest Solder Joints (TM). it's probably been a dozen years since i last soldered in earnest.
finally, a high tech mounting solution for the desiccant bags. the stator is stationary (fixed to the axle), as it's the hub shell that rotates about it, so i figured this mounting setup might do.
if this all doesn't work and the Hall is still bad then i'm just going to order a pedal-first (vs. immediate start) controller and sell my current one. pedal-first controllers don't rely on Hall sensors so this problem would be guaranteed to not recur.
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gah. all that work for nothing: one of the three Hall sensors still goes from 0.0 to 0.6V instead of from 0 to 12V as it is supposed to do.
so i'm going to do as i proposed above: sell the current controller, which utilizes the Hall sensors to sense what position the wheel is and thus allows for electric assist even from a dead stop; and replace it with a pedal first controller, which doesn't use the Hall sensors for diddly squat and thus won't care if they're corroded and bathed in seattle rainwater.
the downside is that i'll have to pedal from a stop every time before rolling on the throttle, which is easier said than done for a ~75 lb bike with tall gearing on an uphill, for instance.
the upside, i suppose, is that i'm once again comfortable for soldering.
lthumbsdown:remind me to not try to build my own electric car, and instead pay someone else -- like a car corporation -- to design, debug, and test it. i would go insane.
Now where is the fun in that?
Sorry to hear your troubles, but you have certainly learned a great deal more about the process.
worst link ever. to which video are you attempting to make reference?
a very cool e-bike chopper:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4958
48V 20 Ah LiFePO4 running a nominally 36V Golden Motor hub motor. based off of a Giant Stiletto.
a new, tiny vehicle from japan-land!
150 kg! i'd rock it.Topia HUVO prototype
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080627/154014/
[DMS] Topia Prototypes 150kg One-seater Electric Vehicle
Jun 27, 2008 18:42
Chikara Nakayama, Nikkei Monozukuri
Topia Corp, a company engaged in designing and prototyping automobiles, prototyped a single-seater electric vehicle "HUVO," which weighs only about 150kg (330 lb).
The vehicle was exhibited at the booth of Marubeni Information Systems Co Ltd in the 19th Design Engineering & Manufacturing Solutions Expo (DMS), which is an IT solution exhibition for manufacturers and runs from June 25-27, 2008, at Tokyo Big Sight.
The HUVO was developed by using Topia's proprietary design and production technologies, the company said.
If a vehicle of the same size as HUVO is made with existing technologies, it would weigh about 300kg, said Hideki Sasaki, president & CEO of Topia.
The body frame is made of high-tensile steel plate, the doors on both sides and the back panel are made of aluminum alloy, the roof is made of carbon fiber reinforced plastic (CFRP), the windshield is made of polycarbonate, and the interior parts and the wheel covers are made of ABS resin.
For pressed parts such as the body frame and the doors, Topia not only designed and manufactured the press molds but also pressed and welded the parts in house. Using the press simulation and 3D measurement, the company enabled to form high-tensile steel plates into parts with high precision.
After the press molding, those parts are trimmed by 3D laser processing, and the body-in-white is manufactured by MIG welding, spot welding and self pierce riveting.
ABS resin parts were manufactured by Stratasys Inc's RP system. Topia has reportedly introduced two units of this RP system (including a 3D printer), and selectively used them according to the part size and the required precision. Topia also decided to introduce "FDM 900mc," Stratasys' large RP system released in April 2008, and will be the first FDM 900mc user in Japan, the company said.
i think this may be the same bike of which jimmydean has posted "passing on the inside" shots previously. here's its info. note commercial availability "this summer". like much of the industry i bet they're waiting on chinese LiFePO4 to become more available after the Olympics.
actually, on second look it appears to be an updated version of the one that jimmydean posted. the GPR is the old version, the GPR-S the new.
new vs. old
GPR-S
Etek-RT at 72V
LiFePO4 from Thundersky (but how much of it?)
GPR
Etek (original version) at 48V or AC induction at up to 84V
AGM lead acid at 48V 22Ah for the Etek version
this is probably old hat, but here's a site that offers a ton of conversion parts: http://www.metricmind.com/ . linked from the front page are also two practical/parts guides to conversion. here's a link to the first of two, a "simple" conversion: http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm (AC Honda CRX conversion).
actually, on second look it appears to be an updated version of the one that jimmydean posted. the GPR is the old version, the GPR-S the new.
new vs. old
GPR-S
Etek-RT at 72V
LiFePO4 from Thundersky (but how much of it?)
GPR
Etek (original version) at 48V or AC induction at up to 84V
AGM lead acid at 48V 22Ah for the Etek version
my verdict: still not ready for prime time but each effort comes closer!Electric GPR-S http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_electric_motorcycle_gpr-s.php
drawing of production spec with full fairing:
prototype with a bit less bodywork:
$8000. based on the based on the Cagiva F4 chassis. production goal of 300 per year so i'm not sure how good local support will be (if any).
Etek-RT motor, "14.2 kW". quoted 35-60 mile range whether going for power or economy. 4h charge time, 1.5h charger optional. no word on actual Wh on the battery (although it's LiFePO4, and reportedly sourced from Thundersky), which controller, etc. 72V by report, unconfirmed.
the nice thing is this: "Motor options: The Electric GPR-S comes stock with a heavy duty PM motor called the Etek-RT. The Electric GPR-S uses an industry standard Nema C-face motor mounting system that is compatible with not only the Etek type motors but almost every 6.7 or 8" motor on the market today. This means upgrading to an AC Induction system, or a SepEx regen system is as easy as bolting in a after-market motor and controller kit."
this is probably old hat, but here's a site that offers a ton of conversion parts: http://www.metricmind.com/ . linked from the front page are also two practical/parts guides to conversion. here's a link to the first of two, a "simple" conversion: http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm (AC Honda CRX conversion).
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That looks seriously unstable in any sort of a crosswind!
Driving one of those here in wellington would be a deathwish!
lthumbsdown:
but 150 kg of weight presumably down low along with 75 kg of passenger is not insubstantial. it may look like a stiff breeze would set it on two wheels but this might not actually be the case.That looks seriously unstable in any sort of a crosswind!
Driving one of those here in wellington would be a deathwish!
(i'm still reading the metric mind honda conversion tale from the bottom of the last post: http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm . all that fabrication... waiting for an aptera or a tesla, or even a chevy volt DEFINITELY seems the way to go unless you're both an EE and a machinist yourself.)
Maybe not in ANY sort of crosswind, but that weight and that sail area would be dodgy in Wellington..... 80-100ph winds are common, Hell yesterday it was gusting 140kmph!!!
So I stand by the "Driving one of those here in wellington would be a deathwish!" comment.
So I stand by the "Driving one of those here in wellington would be a deathwish!" comment.
The GPR-S looks very promising and has some good test results.
Not sure how many people have seen Planet Green. It's a channel from Discovery that used to be Discovery Home. There is an interesting show called Mean Green Machines where they showcase and test alternative vehicles (rather fitting for this thread). The Zero Bike electric dirt bike against a Honda CR250, and the Killacycle drag bike against a gas drag bike tests were awesome.
The electric ATV was a joke, but worth a shot I guess.
so i'm in portland for a day or three, catching some tasty trumpet playing at the summertime annual, free concerts at Monette. in the time not spent listening to music i headed down sandy blvd to ecomotion.
www.eco-motion.com, since someone apparently snagged the domain without the hyphen beforehand
in any case they're in the business of selling BEVs. ones that i saw on their showroom floor (i didn't take down prices, but imagine $2-4k for non-cars and $12-20k for "cars"):
ATV 800:
an ATV, duh. 297 lbs weight. DC "800W" motor. 22 mph, claimed 22 mile range, 15 degree climbing ability. 48V 31Ah worth of SLA.
ZAP Zapino scooter:
"3000W" DC brushless hub motor. 30 mph, 30 miles claimed. 297 lbs., 280 lb rider weight limit. 60V but unknown amp-hours. i'm almost positive it's SLA.
Bravo 4000e and 168 scooters:
scooters with 80s-honda and 70s-vespa bodywork and near-identical innards. straight from china as with the other vehicles, i'm sure. 282 lb weight. claimed ability to climb 8% grade at 10.5 mph (safe on public roads... right), "1500W" brushed DC hub motor, 48V 50Ah worth of SLA. allegedly 30 mph, 35 mile range.
ZAP Zappy 3
3-wheel kick-scooter (ie, no seat, two wheels in back). hub motor up front. "up to 25 miles", "up to 13 mph".
ZAP Xebra
horrible in reality. wavy bodywork, hideous paint, and looks like it's about to topple over on its delta 3-wheeler layout (1 wheel up front). claimed range of "up to 40 miles" with speed "up to 40 mph" but in reality owners report 25 mph and maybe 15 miles of range. POS, and one that you'll pay $17k for the privilege of owning. no thanks.
Vectrix
already mentioned on the first page of this thread. uses a proprietary NiMH battery pack. the only way i'd ride a Vectrix is if i had a local dealer in town, and luckily, portland has such a dealer in ecomotion.
finally, two non-street legal vehicles (the ATV wasn't legal but the rest are afaik):
Miles ZX40ST work truck
looks like a daihatsu hi-jet or basically any japanese kei-class microtruck. fold down bed rails with tiedowns. looks meant for real work. AC powertrain, 25 mph top end, "up to 60 miles" range. $12k iirc, but again, not road legal.
Miles ZX40
another non-road legal wonder. no specs provided but i imagine similar to the ZX40ST: AC. heavier full "micro-SUV" body so "up to 25 mph" and "up to 50 miles" range.
verdict: STILL not ready for prime time. i'm glad people are selling and supporting these things locally, however!
(come on Aptera, release already and shake up this industry!)
www.eco-motion.com, since someone apparently snagged the domain without the hyphen beforehand
in any case they're in the business of selling BEVs. ones that i saw on their showroom floor (i didn't take down prices, but imagine $2-4k for non-cars and $12-20k for "cars"):
ATV 800:
an ATV, duh. 297 lbs weight. DC "800W" motor. 22 mph, claimed 22 mile range, 15 degree climbing ability. 48V 31Ah worth of SLA.
ZAP Zapino scooter:
"3000W" DC brushless hub motor. 30 mph, 30 miles claimed. 297 lbs., 280 lb rider weight limit. 60V but unknown amp-hours. i'm almost positive it's SLA.
Bravo 4000e and 168 scooters:
scooters with 80s-honda and 70s-vespa bodywork and near-identical innards. straight from china as with the other vehicles, i'm sure. 282 lb weight. claimed ability to climb 8% grade at 10.5 mph (safe on public roads... right), "1500W" brushed DC hub motor, 48V 50Ah worth of SLA. allegedly 30 mph, 35 mile range.
ZAP Zappy 3
3-wheel kick-scooter (ie, no seat, two wheels in back). hub motor up front. "up to 25 miles", "up to 13 mph".
ZAP Xebra
horrible in reality. wavy bodywork, hideous paint, and looks like it's about to topple over on its delta 3-wheeler layout (1 wheel up front). claimed range of "up to 40 miles" with speed "up to 40 mph" but in reality owners report 25 mph and maybe 15 miles of range. POS, and one that you'll pay $17k for the privilege of owning. no thanks.
Vectrix
already mentioned on the first page of this thread. uses a proprietary NiMH battery pack. the only way i'd ride a Vectrix is if i had a local dealer in town, and luckily, portland has such a dealer in ecomotion.
finally, two non-street legal vehicles (the ATV wasn't legal but the rest are afaik):
Miles ZX40ST work truck
looks like a daihatsu hi-jet or basically any japanese kei-class microtruck. fold down bed rails with tiedowns. looks meant for real work. AC powertrain, 25 mph top end, "up to 60 miles" range. $12k iirc, but again, not road legal.
Miles ZX40
another non-road legal wonder. no specs provided but i imagine similar to the ZX40ST: AC. heavier full "micro-SUV" body so "up to 25 mph" and "up to 50 miles" range.
verdict: STILL not ready for prime time. i'm glad people are selling and supporting these things locally, however!
(come on Aptera, release already and shake up this industry!)
VW's reliability is good as long as you do the recommended maintenance. I'm at 20,000 miles and have yet had any problems that kept my car from driving or anything. I did burn out a taillight bulb though. $5 and I was done.
I would buy a TDI Rabbit if they ever brought it over.
My ex-wifes car is 100% lemon. '93 Passat GLX (bought new in '93) that we got a 100k mile extended warranty (thank GOD). By the time the warranty was up, it was on its 2nd engine, 3rd transmission, 3rd radiator, it pops a 5amp fuse if you use the remote key lock (has since it was new, they never could figure it out), 2nd ac pump, and the sunroof leaked.
The warranty covered all scheduled maintenance that was done on time and was free of charge.
The only VW I will ever own from then on is air cooled.
Bernie (who owns Trail Head Cycles) just bought a ZapCar. 3 wheeled EV that he uses to make beer runs at the shop. I like the truck, myself.so i'm in portland for a day or three, catching some tasty trumpet playing at the summertime annual, free concerts at Monette. in the time not spent listening to music i headed down sandy blvd to ecomotion.
www.eco-motion.com, since someone apparently snagged the domain without the hyphen beforehand
Try one of the MKV series or a new passat. My family has 2 MKV GTI's [2007 and 2008] and have not had any problems. VW has greatly stepped up their game when it comes to reliability with their new cars. Nothing like they used to be.
Talk to me when your car hits 100k. You can't talk reliability on a car that has 20k miles. At any rate, I doubt they can get any worse.
Why, might this help?
CR June 2008 report. Rates VW Rabbit #1 hatch....
Hows this?
Maby this will help?
Hell, its even CR recomended, it must be crap then...
Serriously, if you would like more, I'm sure I can dig some up for you.
Now, let me guess, Consumer Reports judging system must not be correct....
~Matt
P
, I can look it up if you want, but I believe the 2.0TFSI Motor recieved the same ratings.The new Mk5 VW A-platform cars are actually quite reliable...VW learned something after the clusterfvck that was the gen before them.
Now, to the real point of the post. I think I want to unload my E30. I moved to Santa Cruz two days ago, and a car just doesn't make sense here. I ran some errands earlier and I realized I could be doing it faster on a beach cruiser. This relegates the BMW to a rather expensive toy and occasional transportation device, and all my roomies have cars for mooching if I ever need to (not to mention the two Zipcar points in town, and three up on campus). I just can't justify paying insurance on a car I won't drive that often, and having a few thousand dollars wrapped up in a plaything that ranks somewhere near the middle of my fun priorities seems stupid.
I think I'll sell the car and see how just a bicycle and bus will do for me...I may get a motorcycle, who knows.
Now, to the real point of the post. I think I want to unload my E30. I moved to Santa Cruz two days ago, and a car just doesn't make sense here. I ran some errands earlier and I realized I could be doing it faster on a beach cruiser. This relegates the BMW to a rather expensive toy and occasional transportation device, and all my roomies have cars for mooching if I ever need to (not to mention the two Zipcar points in town, and three up on campus). I just can't justify paying insurance on a car I won't drive that often, and having a few thousand dollars wrapped up in a plaything that ranks somewhere near the middle of my fun priorities seems stupid.
I think I'll sell the car and see how just a bicycle and bus will do for me...I may get a motorcycle, who knows.
I'm pretty sure they can't say *anything* about the reliability of a brand new model car...Why, might this help?
CR June 2008 report. Rates VW Rabbit #1 hatch....
<snip>
Now, let me guess, Consumer Reports judging system must not be correct....
~Matt
P
We'll only know in about 10 years if VW has actually gotten any better.
Ummm... it was *always* just an expensive toy.
It's transportation first, toy second.Ummm... it was *always* just an expensive toy.
Its been out since late 2005. Its not a brand new 2008 model. Thats why some are not rated, and labled as *New*. And see, I'm not the only one that thinks the MKV is reliable.I'm pretty sure they can't say *anything* about the reliability of a brand new model car...
We'll only know in about 10 years if VW has actually gotten any better.
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As we have all learned the Blue is clearly an expert in vehicle reliance. Just don't ask him to recommend a place to have your VW "fixed"
<edit> I guess owning a VW does belong in this thread as you will quickly learn how to use public transportation to get to and from the repair shop.
Haha, I read about that. There's a good reason to by new - 6yr/60,000 mile warente [sp?]As we have all learned the Blue is clearly an expert in vehicle reliance. Just don't ask him to recommend a place to have your VW "fixed"
<edit> I guess owning a VW does belong in this thread as you will quickly learn how to use public transportation to get to and from the repair shop.
Edit: Good joke, thats a funny one.
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sell it! i've used all of $87 worth of Zipcar since i sold my RX-8 in may, and that was one day's worth of minivan rental to move my bedframe, mattress, 150 lb electric piano (which is 17 years old, and which i sold on craigslist for $200!), etc.
i've gone on several trips with the girl or the parents in their respective cars, but have been doing just fine around town on my own, what with the bikes and bus system locally, and amtrak for trips further out.