Proper Pics of the GIANT GLORY 09!!!!
You forgot talent, which I definitely DONT have when it comes to engineering so you wont see a frame from me. However, like I said before, Millyard, Lahar, and Majin are all good examples of people who are making great bikes without OVER-ENGINEERING them, so I'm guessing they have a lot of talent?
Everybody seems to be threatened by the idea that you can go far without having to work your ass off, it reminds me of how frustrated some people used to get in school when they would work super hard and study forever to get a B (which they would be stoked on) but there is always that kid who sits around doing nothing who gets A's every time.
Stop posting. Seriously.
There's a difference between engineering/R&D/expensive manufacturing processes and using already proven designs/thick ass tubing/ugly ass welds to make a bike frame.
Case in point: my buddy has a Majin, and it is nothing more than a 16lb steel bullit. Sure it works, but not really much brainwork behind it (no offense to the maker).
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hahahahahaha
awesome. I'm glad you pointed that out. Millyard and laher are the definition of overengineering. Seriously, couldn't you have brought something better to the table then millyard. And i'm pretty sure the "lahar business venture" was the definition of failure. Not success. millyard and dw are prime examples of people who could do nothing and get A's every time, but work their asses off and get A+'s every time. Then they work their asses off to make a great product.
Given dw's prior comments about being ripped off here, and then his silence, I think he's referring more in a "heat of the moment" type of way given that meastro definitely "borrowed" some of its inspiration, if not its exact function, from dw, and then copied the frame design (if not the linkage) as much as is humanly possible.
I should probably listen to you, especially considering your reputation on these boards compared to mine, but hey at least I'm trying to contribute something here instead of just shutting someone down and, no offense but, quite frankly giving BS information to try to prove your point.
I don't want to clutter this thread with even more off topic info but I've got a Majin sitting next to me right now, if I remember correctly before we built it up the frame was sub 12lbs w/o shock which isn't that bad, especially considering its 1/3 of the price of pretty much anything else out there, and that includes shipping from chile (only point against them is that it took a few months to get here). Full build without light parts is 43-44 pounds, not bad, on par with a giant glory. And it's not really like a bullit at all, with the way we have it set up (8.75x2.75 shock) it has anywhere from a 13.5-14.5 bb depending on which position you set the shock in, as well as very good geo numbers all around. Only downside is a little chainpull but that's normal for a single pivot.
I think what the Majin guys are doing ties into an earlier point I made that the bike industry could benefit from guys like them who step outside the box and provide something useful to the riders (a reliable frame at an awesome price point) as opposed to someone like DW who is providing a very engineering heavy bike that functions very very well but brings all of this cumbersome legal BS and drama along with it.
Please keep posting. Seriously.
My point was you can't compare a battle over patent infringement to garage-built frames such has a Majin. All these "over-engineered" designs you speak of paved the way for your garage-fab'd bikes to some degree. The reason not everyone spends 1/3 the money and gets something like a Majin? Simple........there are better products out there. Sure you pay more, but the additional money you are paying is for the engineering and testing behind these designs. Price gouging still exists no doubt, but the extra money is worth a better frame with a warranty from a reputable company. This isn't an argument of how bikes are overpriced, it's about protecting IP, therefore your touting of these low-budget-yet-functional garage bikes is really not contributing anything to this thread at all. In fact it actually solidifies the belief that people do make money (no matter how little it may be) by utilizing other people's designs.
And as for your Majin.........no idea if they changed, but my friend's has about a 15" BB with a slammed Boxxer Team and the frame weighs about 15lbs with a steel coiled DHX.
And as for your Majin.........no idea if they changed, but my friend's has about a 15" BB with a slammed Boxxer Team and the frame weighs about 15lbs with a steel coiled DHX.
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Yah definitely good point about the Millyard, but I think more of his working off of the ass was from the fabrication aspect of the bike, because I believe in his interview he said it only took 8 weeks from the first drawing to the completion of the bike. And you have to admit that it's a very very sleek design.hahahahahaha
And i'm pretty sure the "lahar business venture" was the definition of failure. Not success. millyard and dw are prime examples of people who could do nothing and get A's every time, but work their asses off and get A+'s every time. Then they work their asses off to make a great product.
Given dw's prior comments about being ripped off here, and then his silence, I think he's referring more in a "heat of the moment" type of way given that meastro definitely "borrowed" some of its inspiration, if not its exact function, from dw, and then copied the frame design (if not the linkage) as much as is humanly possible.
I think the general consensus is that DW puts A LOT of time and effort into JUST the design/engineering of a bike (I'm fairly certain he doesn't do any fab work on the Sunday ect.) and that just kinda makes him seem like the guy who has to work his ass off to get that A+ (his design is definitely A+ I'm not arguing that) while Millyard seems to just have a lot of raw talent and can pop out a complete bike with a gearbox and lots of other desirable features (foldable for storage? come on that genius, definitely A+) using his design prowess and hands on approach alone. It's understandable that DW feels mistreated when Giant is basically using the engineering that he put so much work into, but maybe if we had more guys like Millyard then there would be so much good engineering going around that things like suspension action would become a lower priority when it comes to designing bikes and things like practicality, drivetrain issues and cost (which seems to be a common concern) would take the forefront.
I understand the point I just made isn't the most relevant because DW is dealing with complex physics and lots of tedious engineering of very detailed aspects of a bicycle while Millyard is dealing with more the fundamentals of how we think a mountainbike should be made, but I think Millyard's approach is a better direction ahead and much more worthy of getting worked up over then whether or not DWs design got stolen.
Bryman - what do you do for a living? Just curious.
Go to any engineering/design/manufacturing field and tell me the costs/time of engineering compared to manufacturing. You will find that engineering and R&D time/labor/costs will FAR exceed that of manufacturing costs in most cases. Not saying one is harder than the other, it takes both equally to make a sufficient final product, but most time is put into the design/engineering work. As an engineer, I could easily put 20-25 hours into designing something that takes maybe 3-4 hours of machining/welding time to make. That's just how it goes.
Go to any engineering/design/manufacturing field and tell me the costs/time of engineering compared to manufacturing. You will find that engineering and R&D time/labor/costs will FAR exceed that of manufacturing costs in most cases. Not saying one is harder than the other, it takes both equally to make a sufficient final product, but most time is put into the design/engineering work. As an engineer, I could easily put 20-25 hours into designing something that takes maybe 3-4 hours of machining/welding time to make. That's just how it goes.
Yah, good points, Majin definitely isn't a show case for cutting edge engineering so lets move onto Millyard.
The only reason I'm using them to make my points so much is because I thought it was really powerful that somebody with absolutely no experience in the industry could just pop in and in a couple of months have made a bike that utilizes so many of the technologies that most of the big player's aren't able, or atleast aren't willing, to implement in their designs.
I think this plays into the idea that maybe all this legal stuff and concern with money making is bogging our industry down (no matter how technically good some of suspension systems coming out are) because Millyard was simply making a bike for his son to ride. I think that purity behind his motivation is lacking in this industry and thats why I made my first post. DW kinda comes across as a douche (in comparison) when some of his true motivations behind his engineering come forth, ie. money and recognition.
That last point wasn't supposed to be a strong one though because it confuses even me. Anybody that knows anything knows that the mountain bike biz is notoriously hard to make money in (especially the downhill market) so if your main goal is to make money then why not go to an industry that lends itself more to that? Funny thing is that DW is dabbling in the motocross biz more and more! CONSPIRACCYCYYCYCYCYYC AAHHHHH hahaha just kidding but it is a pretty funny connection.
I don't do anything for a living. At the moment I'm dumping all the money I've saved from working labour jobs into travelling, I'm setting off for London this Friday actually, pretty stoked
I think travelling at my age (only 21) is a better investment on the whole then going to school because (however much I might regret it) I'd rather see the world and get to know myself now before I decide what type of career path I want to take (I'm one of those people who doesn't know, or pretend to know, what they want).It's kinda funny because lots of the poster's in this thread appear to be the type (I could be totally off) that decided, after graduating highschool, they have an interest in engineering and realised they could make good money at it so they got into the field but have now had to deal with the reality of the hard/tedious work that is involved and are trying to lay that reality on me. Fortunately it seems that there are some truly talented (and maybe a bit crazy) individuals out there like Millyard who are showing that you can (apparently) take 3-5 hours of design work and put in 20-25 hours of machining and welding and come out with something great. (I only used those hour figures because they relate to the ones you used in your post, I'm sure in reality there was a lot more then 20-25 hours of sweat that went into that bike)
Maybe mountain biking isn't an engineering field that requires hours of R&D time/labor/costs, what would happen if all the people doing this type of tedious work were out there making their own garage frames, each one with some clever little tweaks that could later be applied to the design of mass produced bikes without them getting in a fuss over their idea being stolen.
Also, maybe it's bad that these engineering costs FAR exceed the manufacturing costs, maybe with a little INGENUITY we wouldn't have to pay so much for bikes as the bulk of the cost would be from the manufacturing which is obviously very cheap. I think this concept has been applied in many more well developed industries such as electronics where you can get something like an mp3 player which is way more technologically advanced than any bicycle ever will be for 1/20 the price of a bike. I guess that isn't really a fair analogy though because bikes are made in way smaller numbers compared to electronics so take that point lightly.
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Yes, but the Millyard guy doesn't make his living designing/fabricating bikes, does he? That's the big difference. Dave puts food on the table and a roof over his head by designing things, so he has to protect his work to ensure he doesn't wind up starving and homeless. I think that's what you're not getting. Just because someone can design and fabricate something doesn't mean it pays the bills. Also, how much analysis/calculations do you think went into spec'ing the Millyard bikes? Don't you think he based his design off of pre-existing figures that ensured his frame wouldn't fail............ya know, years and years of engineering work? 
As for me....I knew I wanted to be an mechanical engineer since I was about 15 years old, and here I am at 22 with plenty of schooling and 3 years of real-world work experience, and don't regret a single second of any of it. Sure it can be stressful and trying at times, but the thrill of solving problems and seeing things come to life that started as a mere concept/idea in your head is quite a rewarding feeling.
As for me....I knew I wanted to be an mechanical engineer since I was about 15 years old, and here I am at 22 with plenty of schooling and 3 years of real-world work experience, and don't regret a single second of any of it. Sure it can be stressful and trying at times, but the thrill of solving problems and seeing things come to life that started as a mere concept/idea in your head is quite a rewarding feeling.
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Yah that's a good point, and just made me think that the development of technology in this industry is so slow because all of the good engineers realize you can't put food on the table designing bikes. So maybe it is a really good thing that DW is trying to make the position of an engineer in the mountain biking industry a more stable one, one where your ideas can't be ripped off without financial compensation. Who knows, Im not pretending to have answers here, like I said in a previous post I could really go either way on the discussion, I just like to throw ideas out there, unfortunately lots of people on here seem to be pretty deep seated in their convictions.Yes, but the Millyard guy doesn't make his living designing/fabricating bikes, does he? That's the big difference. Dave puts food on the table and a roof over his head by designing things, so he has to protect his work to ensure he doesn't wind up starving and homeless. I think that's what you're not getting. Just because someone can design and fabricate something doesn't mean it pays the bills. Also, how much analysis/calculations do you think went into spec'ing the Millyard bikes? Don't you think he based his design off of pre-existing figures that ensured his frame wouldn't fail............ya know, years and years of engineering work?
As for me....I knew I wanted to be an mechanical engineer since I was about 15 years old, and here I am at 22 with plenty of schooling and 3 years of real-world work experience, and don't regret a single second of any of it. Sure it can be stressful and trying at times, but the thrill of solving problems and seeing things come to life that started as a mere concept/idea in your head is quite a rewarding feeling.
Thats really cool to here that you love what your doing and that you find it rewarding. I've heard way too many stories of people dumping all their money into education for a field that they realize they hate being in after a few years.
the worst bit about this whole thing (which somebody may have said but i missed) is that they are using a g2. couldn't even throw a bone and but the lg1 on 
HAHAHAHAHAH guess what, i dont even need 15 years to steal sopmeone elses work i walk into a kitchen and within 8 months i have every recipe in my hat, Im a chef and i work in kitchens, taking information from other chefs is what i do! you wanna complain cause someone borrowed your ideas that just makes me laugh outright! ! ! ! borrowing and learning is how my industry survives and flourishes ... baby.
what is funny is that iron horse's frames are probably made by Giant in Taiwan, must make reverse engineering the dw easy. so who is stealing the split pivot trek? hey DW what do you think of the dual shock frames? reminds me of a baja trucks suspension design. good bits of soft travel with controlled bottom out damper, i know it adds weight but air shocks are light now. i love my reign x, but keep fighten the good fight DW
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[Tha]Shovla;3008311 said:
Just when you think this thread could not get anymore ridiculous,
Rachael f***ing Ray shows up.
You just compared adding a little spice to a marinade with complicated suspension bicycle design.
Congrats.
May you be the next Food Network Star!
May your fugu be prepared incorrectly... douche.[Tha]Shovla;3008311 said:
This thread is full of e-tards! 
Its transcended from intelligent conversation about patent infringement to the ramblings of nutters (obvious who i mean) and the comparison of mechanical engineering with food.........
I covered patents briefly at uni for mech engineering, basically they also stated that if you are 'small' (in terms of capital and resources) and patent something that a larger company likes the look of your in trouble, an example i was given was of a company that was strung out in the courts for 8 years until they didnt have enough money to continue, terribly unfair. - Imagine loosing all of your money and basically your time and job to essentialy a 'thief'?
If this is a DW copy it should be stopped, nobody copied specialized's fsr in countries that had patents granted, if they did they would have been screwed ASAP.
Do some of you guys realise how long it takes to design an effective product? - Not just on that linkage programme either :huh:
Oh, and how is the dw link 'heavy' as stated?, isnt it one of the lighter race-rigs (the sunday)?
Its transcended from intelligent conversation about patent infringement to the ramblings of nutters (obvious who i mean) and the comparison of mechanical engineering with food.........
I covered patents briefly at uni for mech engineering, basically they also stated that if you are 'small' (in terms of capital and resources) and patent something that a larger company likes the look of your in trouble, an example i was given was of a company that was strung out in the courts for 8 years until they didnt have enough money to continue, terribly unfair. - Imagine loosing all of your money and basically your time and job to essentialy a 'thief'?
If this is a DW copy it should be stopped, nobody copied specialized's fsr in countries that had patents granted, if they did they would have been screwed ASAP.
Do some of you guys realise how long it takes to design an effective product? - Not just on that linkage programme either :huh:
Oh, and how is the dw link 'heavy' as stated?, isnt it one of the lighter race-rigs (the sunday)?
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Oh snap, so you're the one that stole the McRib recipe from McDonalds?!![Tha]Shovla;3008311 said:
Wow... You called Dave baby after you compared his design being ripped off to you stealing the batter recipe for some chili cheese poppers. wow... 
[Tha]Shovla;3008311 said:
No, they don't.
I firmly believe anyone who thinks that this sort of behavior is okay hasn't ever had to actually work their ass off for anything in their life. At least not any kind of significant project.
Thinking that "ideas should be free" is downright retarded. Ideas aren't free. Ideas cost money. For this particular situation, DW's education wasn't free. His years of time invested in the design weren't free - you can't eat or sleep for free, so any hours dedicated towards this project were costing money. Even if you were to totally discount the idea that you should be rewarded for unique skills or new ideas, it costs money out of the inventor's own pocket to create these ideas.
Ideas aren't free, and capitalism being what it is, anytime there is an opportunity to grab an idea and run with it, a company will pounce on it with complete disregard for morals or the rights of the inventor.
As interesting as this is, this is really an issue for a courtroom.
I think they have already been tried and convicted on the ridemonkey courtroom by a jury of peers...ish..
US Patent # 497754004322 Smuckers PB & J Sandwich Rounds ....Copyright 2002. 
I'm petitioning the government to get us recognized as a formal judicial entity.
Convictions will result in a humiliating custom title and a taser to the junk.
that's only because McDonald's wasn't able to get a patent for "terrible food"
The problem with stupid people is there are so many of them, and they dont know they're stupid.
Its not that there's so many of them, its that they keep reproducing. There's too many laws in place to prevent them from removing themselves from the gene pool.
Hey dw,
I see you havent posted in this thread for a while now but I just wanted to say that the new Pivot Bike line kicks ass... and they say dw Link on the chain stay.
My next ride will be a Pivot 429.
I see you havent posted in this thread for a while now but I just wanted to say that the new Pivot Bike line kicks ass... and they say dw Link on the chain stay.
My next ride will be a Pivot 429.
Don’t get me wrong here as I do like America very much. But where are you getting this form? And this is why according to the World Economic forum for example Germany, UK, France, Canada and Japan are all ranked as having greater Intellectual property. The Us actually ranked 22nd if I recall correctly. That is current of this year. As for education the last report from the UNICEF I read the US at 18th out of the 24 nations compared. Bit old but still. Now how about the US economy?
Not really so. Try thinking of it a bit like a BMX dirt jump event. If some one invents a new trick people will copy. But then people just invent more tricks. There is money in selling bikes. People will always make better bikes as they will want you to buy there bikes and not others. Same is true to racing. Throughout its history F1 racing always has some one innovating and others will copy. This is one of the reason F1 cars developed so quickly. People will always want to win, especially if there is money involved.
But so is freedom. Well not really. Its more all merged in to one. The developed world combine socialist core ideals to preserve there capitalist ideals. yin yan. Irony at its finest.
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It must really suck to have no originality and to steal from others for your own benefit.[Tha]Shovla;3008311 said:
There's a word for that...hmmm...now what is it....
HACK
Wow this whole thread is lame. Dave, if you want, I'll beat up whoever owns Giant just to protect DW. I got cho back homie!
hahahaha this is gonna turn into the bloods and the crips!
I'll kick some ass!!!!
Any names for this new RM gang ?
Trigga Monkey
Monkey Mob
ridemonkey mafia
RM sydicate
deathmonkey
??
Trigga Monkey
Monkey Mob
ridemonkey mafia
RM sydicate
deathmonkey
??
I'm not taking sides here, but it certainly isn't the first time Giant have released a frame very similar to a small manufacturer's offerings...
