USA Cycling new mtb categories

I'm a little concerned about this as a guy who is planning to move from sport to expert. I'm going to feel like an idiot on a longer track (like Angel Fire) if semi-pros going flying pass me.

I already knew I was going to have to train a lot more for next year. But that's why I want to move up, it will force me to train. But I don't have a chance at semi pros.

manimal said:

so, since we're adopting the road class structure, does this mean that MTB racers will all turn into pompous, elitist douchebags too?!

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...in spandex.

interesting change nice to see they nuked the semi-pro class. Not sure what the name change on the classes is going do. It's going to be fun to explain the classes to people. I'm a 1 on a mtb bike, but a 3 on the road, but that's not the same as a 3 on the MTB, cause that's like a 4.

hmm well i guess im stayin in the expert class for a little longer. i was going to bump up to semi pro and race the fontana races for 2009 but i guess not...

to me it feels like semi pro should have stayed, that way you have your top experts move to semi pro, get a taste of how fast they are, train and come back the next year and go pro.

expert to pro seems like a huge jump, but that will push me even harder.

going from brand new beginner to getting podium in expert in less then a year is pretty exciting for me, so hopefully by the end of next year ill be able to move up into the pro class.

Zutroy said:

interesting change nice to see they nuked the semi-pro class. Not sure what the name change on the classes is going do. It's going to be fun to explain the classes to people. I'm a 1 on a mtb bike, but a 3 on the road, but that's not the same as a 3 on the MTB, cause that's like a 4.

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cat 3 in road is like cat 1 in mtb?

I don't think that is true in terms of the upgrading rules. All that mattered is how many semi's where ahead of you and that there was a certain minimum number in the race. Of course none of this matters anymore. We get to be smoked by Moody either way.

Banshee Rider said:

All of the local USAC races I enter don't have a semi-pro catagory. Semi-pros are lumped into Pro class, but ultimately the field is not seperated out when points are awarded. For this reason, it'd be difficult for me to upgrade to Pro unless I actually podiumed in it to begin with. On the same note, my times are usually always on top in expert, so I don't belong there either. I guess the new system doesn't change much for me, since that's how its been since I upgraded anyway.

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Good to see USCA take a step in the right direction with the class structure. Now I'd wish that they would look into consolidating age groups and allowing the fastest of juniors to race with the pro's. There's no reason that older experts should be slower than most younger sport riders or that the fast juniors shouldn't be groomed and riding under the wings of the current crop of top pro's.

IH8Rice said:

cat 3 in road is like cat 1 in mtb?

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No...1 on the MTB is probably more like 2 on the road. 1 status on the road is kinda a bitch to get. The cats don't line up well, plus you don't have age groups on the road and you have mixed cat races.

CRoss said:

Fewer classes mean fewer tops spots. This will make riders push harder for that top spot. You do not push nearly as hard if you are garanteed a podium.

As for Semi-Pros moving down to Cat1(expert) Cat1 is going to be a faster more difficult class. I am sure there will be more than one Semi-Pro that moves to Cat1.

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I'm confused. I don't know where I'll classify. ...and I don't really think changing the categories around will make that big of difference. For instance, last season in my class Expert 30-39 we probly had an average of 30+ riders in DH and maybe 20-25 Riders in 4x. Everyone in my class charges pretty hard for a podium spot. It can get pretty dicey out there. I don't see it changing anything. There will still be a ton of riders in my class and guys who will ride hard as heck to try to podium. IMO, it's one of the toughest classes. As far as the PRO riders go, how about promoters putting up some some CASH purse for the PRO boys and girls, and getting a Sponsor like NISSAN (World Cup) or POWERADE or something to sponsor the series. Bring back the motivation and rewards that our guys and gals deserve. It seems to me there are more important tasks at hand, but what the Fvck do I know? Sorry, end of my rant. lthumbsdown:

Zutroy said:

No...1 on the MTB is probably more like 2 on the road. 1 status on the road is kinda a bitch to get. The cats don't line up well, plus you don't have age groups on the road and you have mixed cat races.

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so cat 1 in road is like Pro/semi pro then? and cat 2 is like expert?

No, Pro is Pro in Road, CAT1 is the next step down. Usually your Road Race event category will read something like, Pro, 1,2 will be one race then you will have separate Cat 3, cat 4 and cat5 races and possibly a masters race at one event

bfrich said:

No, Pro is Pro in Road, CAT1 is the next step down. Usually your Road Race event category will read something like, Pro, 1,2 will be one race then you will have separate Cat 3, cat 4 and cat5 races and possibly a masters race at one event

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nice and simple...i guess

IH8Rice said:

so cat 1 in road is like Pro/semi pro then? and cat 2 is like expert?

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To some extent. More like 1 is pro, although there is a "pro" class, 2 expert like, 3 is sport like, 4 is kinda beginner like and 5 is first year people mainly. Then they have citizens which is if you don't have a lic. What really makes it hard to make equal is the mixed cat races. So on any given race day you can actually race multiple races. You might have a 1-2-3 race...a 2-3 race...a straight 3 race..someimes a 3-4 race. So you can be a 3 and race against 1s.

Zutroy said:

To some extent. More like 1 is pro, although there is a "pro" class, 2 expert like, 3 is sport like, 4 is kinda beginner like and 5 is first year people mainly. Then they have citizens which is if you don't have a lic. What really makes it hard to make equal is the mixed cat races. So on any given race day you can actually race multiple races. You might have a 1-2-3 race...a 2-3 race...a straight 3 race..someimes a 3-4 race. So you can be a 3 and race against 1s.

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wtf...and people thought the mtb classes need fixing.

thanks for "clarifying" that

I raced a road race last year in the B Group (no C available) and then ther was the A Group. Holy crap was that fast and retarded at the same time. Big guns with veins and hammers for legs mixed with fat, clumsy old guys all cranking out 20 laps and every 5th lap was a points laps. Scariest thing I've yet to do on a bike...EVER!!!

A Group looked more fun b/c they were fluid and in control. But I might have lasted 3 laps.

bizutch said:

I raced a road race last year in the B Group (no C available) and then ther was the A Group. Holy crap was that fast and retarded at the same time. Big guns with veins and hammers for legs mixed with fat, clumsy old guys all cranking out 20 laps and every 5th lap was a points laps. Scariest thing I've yet to do on a bike...EVER!!!

A Group looked more fun b/c they were fluid and in control. But I might have lasted 3 laps.

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wtf happened to the numbered classes we were just talking about?

IH8Rice said:

wtf...and people thought the mtb classes need fixing.

thanks for "clarifying" that

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i know right, to me its easier saying yea i race expert then cat 1. because now im gonna feel stupid trying to explain it to people who dont understand the cat. 1 or 2 crap. its easier for people to understand what beginner is instead of cat 3 or w/e.

idk i guess expert is cat 1? so thats all i have to worry about.

IH8Rice said:

wtf...and people thought the mtb classes need fixing.

thanks for "clarifying" that

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Oh it gets even better you can have pro/1/2/3 races

Really 1 is a pro not a major team for all practical purpose. You can't race the larger race without being on a team that's entered.

yuroshek said:

i know right, to me its easier saying yea i race expert then cat 1. because now im gonna feel stupid trying to explain it to people who dont understand the cat. 1 or 2 crap. its easier for people to understand what beginner is instead of cat 3 or w/e.

idk i guess expert is cat 1? so thats all i have to worry about.

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theres no sandbagger class for you though my friend...hahaha i kid, i kid

IH8Rice said:

theres no sandbagger class for you though my friend...hahaha i kid, i kid

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lol damn theres no cat S for sandbag?

so wait, i was sport class... will I be cat 2 now?


$10 says Laz will still call the categories by their old names.


And Diablo still isn't even on this radar.

jonKranked said:

so wait, i was sport class... will I be cat 2 now?


$10 says Laz will still call the categories by their old names.


And Diablo still isn't even on this radar.

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a beer on you says your right.

yuroshek said:

a beer on you says your right.

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how about a 30 rack at Delta House?

jbogner said:

Before we continue this discussion any more, let me just say that the desire to increase the level of commitment for the pro class is not being driven by the staff of USA Cycling, it's being driven by current pros who want the pro class to mean more than it does now. Don't hate USA Cycling for this- it's being done by demand from top racers, and nothing will get be implemented without their approval.

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I’m not “hating on” usa cycling at all, I just critically read what is actually written down, and then ask the questions that arise based on that. For example, I read in the press release that

“Throughout the last several years, we’ve been discussing ways to improve the quality of races in the U.S. and increase competition,” said Horgan-Kobelski. “This change [category name change] will result in deeper pro fields…”

I have to then question, how can one expect “deeper pro fields” simply by restructuring and renaming the classes? Deeper pro fields means a greater number and quality of professional riders. Will simply restructuring the classes give you more racers? I think you can tell that I think not. These are the types of statements that I’m questioning. If an organization puts out a press release, I’d hope that they can back up their position with defendable facts, not hearsay.

You specifically said that riders without professional / substantial backing should really reconsider racing the pro class. What I wanted to know is have you and USA cycling considered the implications of that on the overall number of participants who are in a position to meet this target. These are difficult questions that I would hope were considered.

jbogner said:

At this point there's no "grand vision," it's a constantly evolving process of listening to the pros and giving them the category that they want- more respected and more exclusive.

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Well, it’s a little disturbing that there’s not a grand vision of what the pro class should be, don’t you think? Shouldn’t there be an actual goal (read: grand vision) to be working to achieve as to what specifically will bring the respect and exclusiveness to the class for said professionals as you mentioned?

jbogner said:

To deal with this shift in licensing, you'll likely see local promoters on the gravity side do what most XC and road promoters do- open up the "pro" class at their local races to any pro or Cat 1 license holders by making it pro/open. USA Cycling allows this unless the race is UCI inscripted or it's a national or state championship race. That way, those semipros who class into Cat 1 can still race the pro class races and not deal with the traffic from the age-groupers during practice. They'll also save $90/year with the $60 Cat 1 license instead of the $150 pro license. Best of both worlds.

This will also make Cat 1 tougher in the coming years, delaying upgrades for the muppets who in the past moved up due to very weak beginner and sport category competition.

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Great, I see this a good thing!

jbogner said:

Have you promoted races? Listening to beginner racers complain about how the course isn't suitable for beginners is one of the unique joys of race promotion.

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Nope, I’m no promoter. Think of me as a potential customer. It’s my dollars that you as a promoter and USA cycling as an organization must earn. And I certainly empathize with you!

jbogner said:

Getting rid of that pejorative term of "beginner" is akin to IMBA's shift in trail rating. No singletrack is labeled "easy" anymore, just "less difficult, more difficult and most difficult" with the warning that "there are no easy trails." With arbitrary categories, the language doesn't carry any skill connotations. It's not a huge deal, but it's a small thing that will ultimately be good for racing.

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Again, good, I’m glad that it’s seen as being good for racing. The discussion I was trying to have is that I have no idea how you’re still NOT going to have a similar dialog with NEW RACERS when they come to an event, simply by renaming the classes. However, based on your discussions it’s appears that you actually don’t see those discussions going away, it’s that it they utilize different vocabulary and descriptions. Again, you’re still having those discussions… And I’m betting you’re still having the same gripes about course not being appropriate for Beginners or Category 1 or anything else you call it. People are still going to gripe.

jbogner said:

Overall, these are positive moves to make racing stronger and to make the word "pro" really mean professional again in American mountain bike racing. The transition won't be painless, but the end result will be worth it. I'm sure Todd will chime in once he's back from his European foray. He worked hard over the past year to help push this through and fine-tune it so that it makes sense for the gravity side...

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Good, let’s improve and move ahead. I’m sure that is what every single racer / potential racer wants. USA cycling / NORBA has lost a great number of participants over the years. In order to bring riders back, there must be an understanding on the part of the organization of what exact mistakes were made so that they are not made again. We want results, not rhetoric. And I’m not hating – actually, my first post was quite negative in that I referred to the author’s of the press release as mental midgets, and for that I apologize. But I truly want to know that this organization has its act together; to prove that, they have to show and convince a lot of people that they do. The questions I ask are my way of digging a little deeper and getting people to critically think about things.

Ithnu said:

I'm a little concerned about this as a guy who is planning to move from sport to expert. I'm going to feel like an idiot on a longer track (like Angel Fire) if semi-pros going flying pass me.

I already knew I was going to have to train a lot more for next year. But that's why I want to move up, it will force me to train. But I don't have a chance at semi pros.

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You should stay in Cat 2 cuz it's gonna get faster. Beginner, Sport, and Expert will all get faster than they were last year as Semi-pros move down and faster Sports hold off on Expert upgrades.

As for the arguement over whether cat1-2-3 or Beginner, Sport, Expert are better names we should remember that official names don't stick as well as what people say. I bet a lot of people will still say Beginner, Sport, Expert.

Lelandjt said:

As for the arguement over whether cat1-2-3 or Beginner, Sport, Expert are better names we should remember that official names don't stick as well as what people say. I bet a lot of people will still say Beginner, Sport, Expert.

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yep i totally agree. someone is gonna ask me what class i race im going to say, cat 1. they will say whats that? i will say, expert. they will say ohh thats cool.

Deeper field my butt!

A lot of the real races (Downieville, Ashland, Oregon series, Mtn States Series) are not NORBA sanctioned anyway, and most of them already lump Pro/Semi-Pro together.

All I see is more money going to USA Cycling. Pro entry fees are always more than non-pro, as are the licenses. For races like Sea Otter, if you are an XC Pro you have to register for the whole stage race thing (TT, ST, XC, Super D?) and pay a crap load of $. I think it was close to $300.

There had better be some prize money now, or I will burn my NORBA card in protest and move to Europe.

trust4130 said:

But I truly want to know that this organization has its act together; to prove that, they have to show and convince a lot of people that they do. The questions I ask are my way of digging a little deeper and getting people to critically think about things.

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Absolutely valid and fair concerns. I don't get any money from USA Cycling and the races that I promote on the trails that I've helped lead the building of here in NYC don't generate anything close to "profit," so rest assured I do all of this (including this new spot on the NORBA Board) for fun and the good of the sport in general.

To be perfectly honest, from a promoter's perspective, I think USA Cycling/NORBA doesn't always "get it," and that's part of my motivation for getting involved (heck, that was Todd's motivation to get involved too). I've done races without USA Cycling (our Hustle and Flow race last April was not USA Cycling sanctioned), and I can be just as skeptical as you. I race too, and excessive fees, requirements, and the like drive me crazy. Beyond that, I hate asking the guys coming out for my races to pony up for expensive licenses if they don't get additional value out of them.

The funny thing I've found, though, is that I'm not the only one on the board who is passionate and adamant about standing up for the racers. The board now has tilted away from big promoters and those with a long-standing vested interest in the way things were, and is working to right the ship by making racing more competitive, more fun, more accessible and more simple.

You don't have to believe me. Everyone has the right to be skeptical. It's up to USA Cycling to prove that things are changing, but there are definitely some great people on the board who are motivated to make that happen. That's all.

yuroshek said:

lol damn theres no cat S for sandbag?

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no, but you can start it...and win in it

Hey guys, I've been buried up to my eye balls in prep for projects the past week, so I can't go back and answer/debate tit-for-tat every point ad nauseum as perhaps you are accustomed from me. If you need specific clarification on any points, as the press release says just drop Kelli at USAC a call. She will undoubtedly go above-and-beyond the call of duty to answer (or get you an answer) to your particular query. You can also search for the other thread(s) on this which many of these topics were discussed back and forth and I'll guarantee you that your comments were heard and indeed considered by those upstairs.

To address a couple of the general points thrown out in this thread:

Why numbers? - Numbers, letters, names: this can be argued in and out until we are blue in the face however, the point that needs to come across is that "Beginner" class was not designed for beginner mountain bikers as much as it was for beginner racers. A rider coming into racing with 10 years of mountain bike experience is clearly not a "beginner" in skill but might be a beginner in respect to racing. The same is true with Expert. Just because you are an expert rider doesn't mean you are fit for an expert race event. Numbers work to much more clearly delineate that. Why 1/2/3 and not 3/2/1? Well, because if we need to add categories on as the sport grows again (have faith y'all!!) you wouldn't want to add it to the top...then you're just in a sorta-pro situation all over again.

Is this just USAC grabbing more fees? - No, not at all. Actually, this is giving the option to all semi-pro's to comfortably move into a very competitive new amateur cat with age-based racing. The license fees here are the same as always. If you want to be competitive at a top-level but are not looking to race internationally and have no aspirations of drawing a living from riding a bike, well then Cat 1 is the place for you.

Again, if anyone needs in depth discussion of individual points call Kelli or, just drop me a PM with your number and I will do my best to call you as time allows.

-ska todd

thanks todd...my brain hurts a little less now.
but one question...what will stop someone from choosing the wrong class even with a number system? your point does makes sense about beginner category being for beginner racers and the same for expert, but how will a number system change this "problem?"

yuroshek said:

hmm well i guess im stayin in the expert class for a little longer. i was going to bump up to semi pro and race the fontana races for 2009 but i guess not...

to me it feels like semi pro should have stayed, that way you have your top experts move to semi pro, get a taste of how fast they are, train and come back the next year and go pro.

expert to pro seems like a huge jump, but that will push me even harder.

going from brand new beginner to getting podium in expert in less then a year is pretty exciting for me, so hopefully by the end of next year ill be able to move up into the pro class.

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That's why they did have the semi pro class but it was not functioning like it should.

IH8Rice said:

thanks todd...my brain hurts a little less now.
but one question...what will stop someone from choosing the wrong class even with a number system? your point does makes sense about beginner category being for beginner racers and the same for expert, but how will a number system change this "problem?"

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This will hopefully help to deter it a bit. I've had friends who while good riders have never raced before and they will not race "beginner" because of the stigma of the name. We're not saying this is like road where you MUST start in Cat 5 and accumulate points and all, but we are saying "hey, you might want to reconsider racing in the higher category as a newb". Also, I'd expect to see the Cat 2 become a bit more of a "super-sport" category over the next couple seasons as a lot of cats who have ride skills but maybe not race fitness (work 60hr weeks, have 2 kids, etc) will shift into it without the fear of being branded a "sport" racer. For DH this might even mean cat 2's racing on what before would have been the "Pro/Ex" course. I see the shift personally going more to something like the below over the next couple seasons. I'm not talking about forcing it, just more of how it will shake out once everyone is where they "belong".

Pro = all current pros and top 1/3 semi pro
1 = bottom 2/3 semi pro and top 2/3 expert
2 = bottom 1/3 expert and top 2/3 sport
3 = bottom 1/3 sport and beginner

-ska todd

What a total waste of energy, they should have just done away with Semi-pro. I'm curious what % of the semi pros will go down & sandbag the Experts Vs. step up & do Pro?
$70 Clams/year for mass confusion, & no promotion...
Hail Highland!!
Hail Diablo!!
They've thrown off the yoke, make sure to support em! (+both places kick ass!!)
Last Week I was an Expert Dh Racer. Now I'm a #3 (I think..). I'm sure describing the classes to non racers will be mucho easier now.. Thanks NoBra.

FlyinPolack said:

What a total waste of energy, they should have just done away with Semi-pro. I'm curious what % of the semi pros will go down & sandbag the Experts Vs. step up & do Pro?
$70 Clams/year for mass confusion, & no promotion...
Hail Highland!!
Hail Diablo!!
They've thrown off the yoke, make sure to support em! (+both places kick ass!!)
Last Week I was an Expert Dh Racer. Now I'm a #3 (I think..). I'm sure describing the classes to non racers will be mucho easier now.. Thanks NoBra.

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I wouldn't call it sandbagging I don't think all will have a choice. Not all current semipro will be allowed to go pro...

And no you would be a number 1 not 3 which most of the posts have stated.

FlyinPolack said:

What a total waste of energy, they should have just done away with Semi-pro. I'm curious what % of the semi pros will go down & sandbag the Experts Vs. step up & do Pro?
$70 Clams/year for mass confusion, & no promotion...
Hail Highland!!
Hail Diablo!!
They've thrown off the yoke, make sure to support em! (+both places kick ass!!)
Last Week I was an Expert Dh Racer. Now I'm a #3 (I think..). I'm sure describing the classes to non racers will be mucho easier now.. Thanks NoBra.

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Seriously im reading this an outsider, having only raced in australia. Its not exactly rocket science on how the class structure has changed. F@ck its not that hard. By the way some people are whinging its like their whole world has fallen down.

Ska i think you meant to say

ska todd said:

Pro = all current pros and top 1/3 semi pro
1 = bottom 2/3 semi pro and top 2/3 expert
2 = bottom 1/3 expert and top 2/3 sport
3 = bottom 1/3 sport and beginner

-ska todd

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Personally I agree with the class structure being setup in numbers not names, as people associated beginner with beginner riders not beginner racers.

We use the following structure in Aus: Elite, Expert, Sport

With the main difference being is that annyone can enter any class due to the smaller racing fields so you dont have to qualify to move up a class. Yes sometimes it leads to sandbagging but generally people know where they fit in.

RaID said:

Ska i think you meant to say

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yep, corrected.

-ska todd

ska todd said:

This will hopefully help to deter it a bit. I've had friends who while good riders have never raced before and they will not race "beginner" because of the stigma of the name. We're not saying this is like road where you MUST start in Cat 5 and accumulate points and all, but we are saying "hey, you might want to reconsider racing in the higher category as a newb". Also, I'd expect to see the Cat 2 become a bit more of a "super-sport" category over the next couple seasons as a lot of cats who have ride skills but maybe not race fitness (work 60hr weeks, have 2 kids, etc) will shift into it without the fear of being branded a "sport" racer. For DH this might even mean cat 2's racing on what before would have been the "Pro/Ex" course. I see the shift personally going more to something like the below over the next couple seasons. I'm not talking about forcing it, just more of how it will shake out once everyone is where they "belong".

Pro = all current pros and top 1/3 semi pro
1 = bottom 2/3 semi pro and top 2/3 expert
2 = bottom 1/3 expert and top 2/3 sport
3 = bottom 1/3 sport and beginner

-ska todd

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i smell what youre putting down

FlyinPolack said:

What a total waste of energy, they should have just done away with Semi-pro. I'm curious what % of the semi pros will go down & sandbag the Experts Vs. step up & do Pro?
$70 Clams/year for mass confusion, & no promotion...
Hail Highland!!
Hail Diablo!!
They've thrown off the yoke, make sure to support em! (+both places kick ass!!)
.

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yeah lets support races that dont help promote the bigger overall picture of racing in the U.S.

IH8Rice said:

i smell what youre putting down



yeah lets support races that dont help promote the bigger overall picture of racing in the U.S.

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what class is bongo gonna race in? what about dr teeth?

jonKranked said:

what class is bongo gonna race in? what about dr teeth?

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that muppet will forever haunt me everytime i do acid or mushrooms.

thank you jon