"Too much" DH brakes?

syadasti · Oct 14, 2008

Shimano made some prototype brakes way back in the day that were deemed too powerful and never made it to production.

norbar · Oct 14, 2008

Well most ppl in hard situations tend to brake as hard as they can therefore blocking the wheels...
Also most of the top power brakes are simply more power than you need as you can simply ride even in very hard conditions with no problems. In most cases the tires can't put the extra power into use threw grip. I changed from gustavs to formula oro's and I can say that gustavs were for sure simply too powerfull - I didn't need the extra power and the cost of it was the unnecessary weight. Tested my brakes in very hard conditions and can't think why I'd need gustavs.

jonKranked · Oct 14, 2008

Seriously tho, depends on how well you know how to brake. Some people don't know how to modulate. They just grab a handful of brake and lock their wheels. Also depends on the terrain you ride, and how skilled of a rider you are.

General Lee · Oct 14, 2008

syadasti said:
Shimano made some prototype brakes way back in the day that were deemed too powerful and never made it to protection I think?

Matti Lehikoinen deemed the '09 Saint brakes too strong with 8" rotors and the original metal sintered pads. they tested smaller rotors but they got too hot and the organic pads weren't available yet. his mechanic was trying all sorts of crazy way to cut down on power.

it's not so much the amount of power, it how quickly it comes on and how controlable and consistent it is.

General Lee · Oct 14, 2008

jonKranked said:
Seriously tho, depends on how well you know how to brake. Some people don't know how to modulate. They just grab a handful of brake and lock their wheels. Also depends on the terrain you ride, and how skilled of a rider you are.

i'd say even codes are overkill for any skilled rider (of average weight, not someone like Rennie). you don't need that kind of power unless you drag your brakes everywhere and heat them up. standard juicy's are fine if you brake hard, late, and only when you need to.

CBJ · Oct 14, 2008

Lee if think more power on a long day of riding is better when your hands gets weaker and weaker its good not to have to pull to much to break. For racing I agree with you.

norbar · Oct 14, 2008

General Lee said:
i'd say even codes are overkill for any skilled rider (of average weight, not someone like Rennie). you don't need that kind of power unless you drag your brakes everywhere and heat them up. standard juicy's are fine if you brake hard, late, and only when you need to.

ACtualy with good brake fluid you can drag them as long you want

syadasti · Oct 14, 2008

General Lee said:
Matti Lehikoinen deemed the '09 Saint brakes too strong with 8" rotors and the original metal sintered pads. they tested smaller rotors but they got too hot and the organic pads weren't available yet. his mechanic was trying all sorts of crazy way to cut down on power.

This was a long time ago, not modern models.

SamB · Oct 14, 2008

I like my Saints, they're not too powerful but they're super easy to control and they have enough power there if I need it. Don't like having really powerful brakes but I'm only a lightweight haha

My old juicy 7's on the other hand, had way too much bite. I always felt like I was gonna get kicked over the bars unless I was going at a reasonable speed. I think I ended up with a dodgy set though, they were more bitey than any codes i have ridden on. They were only on the stock pads though, and they were like this out of the box. I met up with the guy i sold my old bike to in the weekend and had a little go on it with the juicy's, you really have to feather them to avoid locking up, a lot different to my saints. But every set of juicy's I've ridden seems to be completely different (had some juicy carbons recently which were ok)

my $.02

jonKranked · Oct 14, 2008

syadasti said:
This was a long time ago, not modern models.

you mean the '10 2009 models? :rofl:

Transcend · Oct 14, 2008

syadasti said:
This was a long time ago, not modern models.

They made a dual rotor brake in the early 90s that actually had mini radiators on the lines. They were way too powerful, had zero modulation and didn't last very long on anyone's bike.

syadasti · Oct 14, 2008

jonKranked said:
you mean the '10 2009 models?

You don't remember reading about those prototype dual rotor three pad disc brakes shimano was testing a long long time ago? Supposedly you had to oil them :banana:

Doh - Frasier does :busted:

General Lee · Oct 14, 2008

syadasti said:
You don't remember reading about those prototype dual rotor three pad disc brakes shimano was testing a long long time ago? Supposedly you had to oil them

Doh - Frasier does

yes, but i am referring to the Saint brakes on his bike this past May and a rather lengthy discussion i had with his mechanic about them. hopefully things got sorted for production

jonKranked · Oct 14, 2008

syadasti said:
You don't remember reading about those prototype dual rotor three pad disc brakes shimano was testing a long long time ago? Supposedly you had to oil them

Doh - Frasier does

2 words:

Shimano Airlines.

A pneumatic brake system would be awesomer!!!

Also, doesn't hayes make a set of 9" rotors?

cheetaprowlerDH · Oct 14, 2008

if you wan a big, powerful brake tha you will be able to stop on a dime with using one finger, buy some Grimeca System 17's... people say their size is overkill, but the thing about them is that they just dont heat up! FactoryCostcoDH and i rode down an insanely steep and rocky mountain this summer, it took us about 20 minutes of riding to get to the bottom and through that whole 20 minutes, our fingers never left a deathgrip on the brakes... he runs a System 17 in the front and a System 12 in the back, i run a Hayes Mag in the front and a System 12 in the back, and when my Hayes (with Castrol automotive fluid) began to fail, Cory's 17 still bit like a monster and held its power... but thats not the surprising part... my Mag failed less than halfway down the mountain! you could feel the heat through the lever body, it was crazy.

and skill had no real influence on this.... theres no line we couldve taken to slow down by turning or otherwise not using the brakes... the Grimecas held up amazingly, but any single piston brake wouldve had the same fate as my Mag... i garuntee it.

mostly people say something is overkill because it has too much power for their riding style... i used to say Cory's Grimecas were totally ovekill, but i was even slower than i am now when i sad that :biggrin:

OGRipper · Oct 14, 2008

I am pretty sure I agree with CBJ's point, if I am reading it correctly (kinda hard to understand yo). Given that pretty much all of the more powerful brakes these days offer a decent-to-great range of power, for a full-on DH bike more power is better for me simply because it requires less effort. Less effort means less fatigue and more control, which can make a big difference at the end of a long day on the mountain, and even more so over multiple days. More power can also allow you to brake later too. But I am old and tend to drag the brakes so what do I know...

Patan-DH · Oct 14, 2008

General Lee said:
Matti Lehikoinen deemed the '09 Saint brakes too strong with 8" rotors and the original metal sintered pads. they tested smaller rotors but they got too hot and the organic pads weren't available yet. his mechanic was trying all sorts of crazy way to cut down on power.

it's not so much the amount of power, it how quickly it comes on and how controlable and consistent it is.

I was thinking about using a set of the new 09 saint levers with the old 2 piston monoblock Saint calipers. Does anyone got this setup here?

rigidhack · Oct 14, 2008

I am not a small guy, nor do I ride slowly all the time. I am also a guy who has used the term "overkill" to describe brakes. I run Avid Juicy 7s and for the way I ride they are perfect. They are lighter than Codes, they stop me just fine in every circumstance I have ever wanted them to do that for me, so why spend more $$$ and carry more weight on the bike than I need to? I have only ever had them fade once or twice at the end of a long day at Whistler, usually somewhere up the Garbanzo lift, but the full power is back almost right away. I think a good set of breaks is critical, but I do think it can be overdone. With technical riding, especially on the Shore, the ability to brake properly and skillfully is the difference between doing well and landing on your head. That having been said, I don't really see how a set of Gustavs would help me - therefore they are overkill for me.

NorthWest · Oct 14, 2008

Aren't Formula Ones still the best? yes, yes they are.

Light, powerful and expensive. Get what you pay for. Think your shiit's crappy? Buy nicer shiit.

pillete · Oct 14, 2008

I used to have Gustavs on my bike, they were great brakes, but they were way too powerful, (plus I am feather weight 135 lbs with gear so that didn't help).

I can certainly say that the brakes being too powerful hurt my riding, I became slower during the season that I used them.

I got 08 Shimano XT's brakes, for this season, and what a difference they made.
They are not as powerful as the Gustavs, but the modulation they have its great, they certainly changed the way I ride,I can control better the way I brake.

From my personal experience, I can for sure say that there is such a thing as overkill brakes.

xy9ine · Oct 14, 2008

syadasti said:
Shimano made some prototype brakes way back in the day that were deemed too powerful and never made it to protection I think?

these:

Curious_George · Oct 14, 2008

I saw those in person!!! but seriously now. People that say that brake are overkill are of the older generation. When Hayes was DA-****, people use to ride hayes. Most riders go towards dual piston brakes because they are "accustomed to it". The juicy 7's, the mags and now the strokers have that same ON/OFF no modulation feel...which most people are used to. What is now considered overkill is more an introduction to modulated brakes which may come as a shock to most old-school riders.

DirtyMike · Oct 15, 2008

Its not so much the feel of too much power as it is a lack of modulation. I would love if there was a wonderfuly powerfull brake out there that had awesome modulation....but it jus isnt there. I went from Juicy sevens< first gen> to the new stroker trails....And I lvoe them, as oppsoed to what some think, the modulation is great, and they have quite a bit of power when I needit, I can run the lever very close to the bar, and use one finger at all time, even on super steep stuff. at the same time, I am always on complete control as to what is going on. Codes.....on the other hand, I never liked, power came on too fast, and liked to throw me over the bars......Alot of people keep asking me when they can order a set of Stroker Ace four piston brakes.... And I am worried about thse being just too much.

DirtMcGirk · Oct 15, 2008

I would go so far as to call this very subjective as relative to your beer gut.

If you know me, you know I am what gay folk would call a "bear." At 235 and 5'10", I am not getting hit up a lot to model for Ambercrombie and Bitch.

I run Gustavs, and for 2009 I am going to run the new Saints with full metal pads. Why would I make this drunken, one way trip to the ER sort of decision? Because damnit, when a fat man tries to stop, I want to make sure its going to happen before I run someone's kid over. Its happened before, it may happen again, and its always been the fault of the Hayes HFX.

When I hit the chicken switch, I want my flying pudge to stop. I've made love to trees. I've gone OTB at the worst of times. I am getting far too old for that ****.

Long story short, now that I have bored you with tales of trips to the buffet for the 9th helping, stoppers are subjective. You may have to ride some of the .50 caliber stuff before you decide you want to drop your game with a .243.

And I'm out!

Steve M · Oct 15, 2008

General Lee said:
i'd say even codes are overkill for any skilled rider (of average weight, not someone like Rennie). you don't need that kind of power unless you drag your brakes everywhere and heat them up. standard juicy's are fine if you brake hard, late, and only when you need to.

There is plenty of terrain out there where you don't really have much choice but to brake a hell of a lot. When things get steep and tight, there isn't an alternative (except getting hurt).

I'm yet to ever ride a set of brakes that I thought was "too" powerful. If they're more powerful, you simply pull less hard on the lever, that is the act of modulation. It also reduces arm pump and hand pain/fatigue, and means you have more power in reserve for those times when you do overheat your brakes. We have a track here that's about 8 mins long (600 odd vertical metres), there are parts of that where you just can't get off the brakes for long at all - even pro/elite racers. Unless you're a super lightweight, you WILL overheat your brakes riding stuff like that, no matter what they are, and once your pads are glazed I'd rather have the extra power available.

If you can get away with lightweight brakes with lower power and smaller pads, great. For those of us who are at the heavy end of the scale, who ride steep stuff, the more powerful brakes definitely have their place.

norbar · Oct 15, 2008

I think most ppl don't understand the idea most ppl mean when they say the brakes are to powerfull. Imo it meant that the extra power is not needed especialy in case of most stonger brakes (all besides the one/mega) are extra weight so why add weight while it gives you no benefit?

BTW. Socket at steep terain under breaking you will get very little traction so uber power won't really help. The only think good with good brakes on it is less fading but I'm yet to feel the fade in mine with my new fluid. But I'm light maybe sb over 70kg would. Also I've been riding for like a half a season with my front brake half working so that learned me to live with less braking

Steve M · Oct 15, 2008

norbar said:
I think most ppl don't understand the idea most ppl mean when they say the brakes are to powerfull. Imo it meant that the extra power is not needed especialy in case of most stonger brakes (all besides the one/mega) are extra weight so why add weight while it gives you no benefit?

BTW. Socket at steep terain under breaking you will get very little traction so uber power won't really help. The only think good with good brakes on it is less fading but I'm yet to feel the fade in mine with my new fluid. But I'm light maybe sb over 70kg would. Also I've been riding for like a half a season with my front brake half working so that learned me to live with less braking

Nah man, a 1:3 gradient is "steep" but it's not so steep that you can't brake on it, that has to be like 1:1 gradient (45 deg) before it gets to the point where traction just disappears or you risk locking up the front wheel. Seriously, I welcome anyone to come ride the track I mentioned above without overheating their brakes - very few people manage it, even with Codes, 6 pot Hopes and the like. I don't think fluid fade is the problem at all either, it's all to do with the pads losing their grab - the fluid cools down and goes back to normal soon enough (in fact I never even notice a change in lever feel), but the power doesn't come back.

norbar · Oct 15, 2008

1:3 is below 20deg. That is steep enough to make your brakes fade? I can think of many trails I've tried and had no fade with my new fluid. I'm rather light 160-170ish but I think going with your theory I should overheat my oro's on 4.1km and 600m vertical track - especialy that it had a lot of friggin steep parts (over 45deg). Done it with new fluid (boiling point ~300deg celcius) and goodridge hoses (dunno if help) but with sintered pads that generate more heat.
Also I don't think you need a lot of braking on 1:3 steepness.
I think the only place when I'd need a lot of braking and more power/less fading would be in the situation Cheeta mentioned or maybe on Champery DH track (know some very good guys who told me they couldn't ride some parts of it...)

PS. I know the extra power gives some ppl extra comfort but I'm quite fine with the feedback my brakes give me.

Prettym1k3 · Oct 15, 2008

Personally, I love my Juicy 7's on my trail/light freeride bike... and I love my Codes.

I prefer a brake with very little modulation... I like a little modulation at the beginning, and then I want the brake to lock up. That's just what I prefer.

*Pepe* · Oct 15, 2008

Socket said:
I'm yet to ever ride a set of brakes that I thought was "too" powerful. If they're more powerful, you simply pull less hard on the lever, that is the act of modulation. It also reduces arm pump and hand pain/fatigue, and means you have more power in reserve for those times when you do overheat your brakes. We have a track here that's about 8 mins long (600 odd vertical metres), there are parts of that where you just can't get off the brakes for long at all - even pro/elite racers. Unless you're a super lightweight, you WILL overheat your brakes riding stuff like that, no matter what they are, and once your pads are glazed I'd rather have the extra power available.

If you can get away with lightweight brakes with lower power and smaller pads, great. For those of us who are at the heavy end of the scale, who ride steep stuff, the more powerful brakes definitely have their place.

i totally agree. i've never ridden a set of brakes that are "too" powerful. i have tested brakes that took some getting used to because the power was more than i had experienced in the past, however once i understood the idiosyncracies of the brake and learned how i need to modulate them, it's all good.

determining benchmarks for brake power is a tricky thing. i'm sure if manufacturers introduced 5 year-old disc brake technology 10 years ago, consumers would have complained that they were too powerful. now that same brake doesn't come close to what's been developed within the last couple of years. likewise, going forward the brakes we're using today won't hold a candle to brakes available another decade from now and the cycle continues.

for some tracks close to home we're dragging brakes the whole way down. it's impossible to ride it otherwise unless you want to literally be a tree hugger. having more power and knowing how to modulate simply translates into less fatigue. for those who can get away with lighter set-ups because weight/style/track allows you to do so, i say all the power to you.

cheers.

ridiculous · Oct 15, 2008

moral of the thread buy formula!

jonKranked · Oct 15, 2008

DirtMcGirk said:
When I hit the chicken switch, I want my flying pudge to stop. I've made love to trees.

OGRipper · Oct 15, 2008

DirtyMike said:
Codes.....on the other hand, I never liked, power came on too fast, and liked to throw me over the bars......

Just to keep the feedbak even, the only time my codes ever did that was when I first got them and had not yet learned just how strong they are, and grabbed a handful of brake in panic situations. I've learned to not do that and it's all good.

Sandwich · Oct 15, 2008

I think it depends on your use, conditions, and equipment. I rode my gustavs at highland in the wet, which is very slick and sloppy, and had a hell of a time. They were difficult to modulate and I ended up washing out often. Riding at plattekill was a totally different story. Power came on nice and easy, and there was never too much. I'm still working on getting them set up properly, so I'd like to try again, but I think some guidelines need to be laid down before comparing brakes.

1) how much do you + your bike weigh (fatty on a fat bike?)
2) What kind of terrain are you riding (super steep, short and flat, extended runs, ?)
3) Your intended use (DH Race, shuttling, freeriding?)

I know for me, having more powerful brakes insinuates more fade resistance and less lever pressure. That means I can make more runs with more comfort. I had to cut my second day at plattekill short because my old hopes just didn't have the pad material to resist fading. I had to squeeze as hard as possible to keep slowing down in certain sections. The "power" was adequate, but fade resistance was simply not there.

bpatterson6 · Oct 15, 2008

FWIW, Last season on my 303 I had the Hope V2 Brakes. IMO, Wayyyy more brake than anyone needs. Brakes are to be used for control, not stopping. Beside how powerful the the Hope V2's were, they were also super high dollar.

Curious_George · Oct 15, 2008

Prettym1k3 said:
Personally, I love my Juicy 7's on my trail/light freeride bike... and I love my Codes.

I prefer a brake with very little modulation... I like a little modulation at the beginning, and then I want the brake to lock up. That's just what I prefer.

most people would tend to agree with you

norbar · Oct 15, 2008

bpatterson6 said:
FWIW, Last season on my 303 I had the Hope V2 Brakes. IMO, Wayyyy more brake than anyone needs. Brakes are to be used for control, not stopping. Beside how powerful the the Hope V2's were, they were also super high dollar.

Word.

"Too much" DH brakes?

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