SRAM to launch a complete high-end MTB grouppo

DirtMcGirk · Nov 13, 2008

I miss 8 speed...

Thick chains, simple math..

Steve M · Nov 13, 2008

DirtMcGirk said:
I miss 8 speed...

Thick chains, simple math..

You do know the only change between 8sp and 9sp chains is the spacing of the plates right? The actual plate thickness is the same, and strength is actually probably higher with 9sp chains, because the pins are shorter.

That said, 10sp is something that just didn't have to happen with MTBs. Maybe the XC race crowd will jump on it, but for DH I'd rather see a 5 or 6 speed, widely-spaced-ratio cassette than have to shift four billion times to get any real change in gearing ratio.

Also, there's no way X.X is going to be better than X.plode

stumpjump · Nov 13, 2008

As mountain bikers we will always strive to further the technology of bikes, but is carbon fiber really necessary. Carbon fiber is strong and light, but once it takes a decent hit, its done. Ive read too many stories of carbon things falling apart after some abuse and frankly the probability that I will spend bank on a part because its 400g lighter is about high as me wearing spandex to cut wind drag.

There is a point at which lightening the bike wont help anymore and its time to just go to the gym and push harder.

Banshee Rider · Nov 13, 2008

Pretty exciting stuff for alot of people. I'm sure the xc race crowd is as excited as we are about the Boxxer. I haven't heard anything good about ceramic bearings and mountain bikes though? Last time AC was here he was saying shimano had them in his BB, but the reduced friction was hardly noticable and all they did was wear out twice as quick. It seems like they a pretty significant cost driver thats not a huge advantage?

dropmachine · Nov 13, 2008

It IS necessary, because XC guys are weiners, and think junk like 10 speed is required. AND, SRAM has to punch out 10 speed, because you know Shimano's going to, and its better if they do it first.

All my bikes are 8 speed, and will be for the foreseeable future. The one thing thats always pissed me off is that SRAM doesn't offer high end 8 speed shifters, like Shimano does. They were supposed to release the X.9s in 8 speed, but it never happened....

I should start a petition.

DirtyMike · Nov 13, 2008

There is actually a decent push from the XC side to have bikes specd with a double in teh front and ten speed in the back. I know we have set up at least a half dozen coss bikes that way, I didnt think too much of it at the time, seeing how its a modified roadie anyways. But then we started getting people in wanting a compact double and ten speed for the rear on things like a Fuel, and Blur's, ETC. I think its going to happen, Probably be spec for 2010 on select bikes. I dont think we will see it for DH, but defenetly for XC.

DirtyMike · Nov 13, 2008

Banshee Rider said:
Pretty exciting stuff for alot of people. I'm sure the xc race crowd is as excited as we are about the Boxxer. I haven't heard anything good about ceramic bearings and mountain bikes though? Last time AC was here he was saying shimano had them in his BB, but the reduced friction was hardly noticable and all they did was wear out twice as quick. It seems like they a pretty significant cost driver thats not a huge advantage?

I have to agree about the ceramics for the MTN bike. Its a hardly noticable difference. But on the Roadie its a fair difference over the coarse of 100 miles.

MDJ · Nov 13, 2008

DirtyMike said:
There is actually a decent push from the XC side to have bikes specd with a double in teh front and ten speed in the back.

I've only ridden with a single chainring on my bieks for several years now, but it seems to me that a 2x10 makes more sense on an XC bike than a 3x9. I just demo'd a bike that had 3 chainrings on it and it just seemed rather silly for some reason.

BaNZ · Nov 13, 2008

Oh well I'll say it's just some more crap from Taiwan factories. Yeah you guys can say all crap coming from Taiwan factories, yup it does but we're definetely don't need some 10spd cassetes really.

All my bikes are 8 speed and will be for the foreseeable future.

- yeah the same with mine.

The one thing thats always pissed me off is that SRAM doesn't offer high end 8 speed shifters, like Shimano does.

- just try a Shimano, their hi-end components aren't sucky at all.

I should start a petition.

- but I'll support you anyway.

buildyourown · Nov 13, 2008

Socket said:
You do know the only change between 8sp and 9sp chains is the spacing of the plates right? The actual plate thickness is the same, and strength is actually probably higher with 9sp chains, because the pins are shorter.

The main reason I switched back was wear rate. 8sp chains last 3-4 times longer on a DH bike than 9sp. When running a SRS or similar guide, as soon as the chain gets any lateral slop, the guide stops working and you need a new chain. I used 1 chain for a whole season last year compared to 3 or 4 9sp chains the year before.

Oh yeah, and the cassettes are dirt cheap and light.

Prettym1k3 · Nov 13, 2008

I can totally see the advantage to the Hammerschmidt. But as far as a mountain group that weighs as much as the DuraAce group... that seems a little unnecessary.

As it stands, unless you're getting most of this stuff for free, or you don't mind constantly replacing the carbon fiber bits, this sport is nearly too expensive. They're just driving up the cost. They could make the technology better without driving up the cost as much as they are.

And this is coming from a guy who refuses to run anything Shimano on anything but a road bike.

OGRipper · Nov 13, 2008

It is interesting to see people using words like "necessary" and "hardly noticeable" here. Super high end stuff has never been "necessary" but that doesn't stop lots of people from wanting it. And the top stuff is so good right now that except for a huge tech leap like hammerschmidt or electronics, the differences will continue to be marginal, a matter of degree. I mean, yeah, some of it is marketing (of course) but I support improvements, however small - particularly since they add up over time.

boogenman · Nov 13, 2008

I am happy with my X0 shifter and X9 thinger in the back.

sanjuro · Nov 13, 2008

Keep in mind that SRAM was going to improve all their components, although items like bearings will see the greatest change and chains and derailleurs the least.

The only reason why they can announce a "high-end" gruppo is that they have Zipp to make some pinner-ass wheels.

I am sure people in the DH forum are salivating over a carbon fiber rim with 18 bladed spokes radially laced to a 100g hub.

kidwoo · Nov 13, 2008

Socket said:
You do know the only change between 8sp and 9sp chains is the spacing of the plates right? The actual plate thickness is the same, and strength is actually probably higher with 9sp chains, because the pins are shorter.

That said, 10sp is something that just didn't have to happen with MTBs. Maybe the XC race crowd will jump on it, but for DH I'd rather see a 5 or 6 speed, widely-spaced-ratio cassette than have to shift four billion times to get any real change in gearing ratio.

Also, there's no way X.X is going to be better than X.plode

You never had a phase of breaking 9sp chains when they first came out?

You're lucky. That stuff sucked. I don't know what changed besides me to sram but the first year of shimano 9sp chains really did pop off quite a bit. Just ask BC van.

As far as greater ratio changes, just run an 11-34 cassette if you don't already. Or just build your own.....

10sp: there have been some 5hour plus rided I've been on (trail riding obviously) where right about hour 4 I was wishing there was such a thing as a 36 or 38t cog

dh.....not so much

gratiflying · Nov 13, 2008

i run a sram 1:1 8 speed shifter on an old M950 XTR 8 speed cassette and while it is NOT lighter than a comparable 9 speed setup on another bike, the wider 8 speed cassette spacing is less finicky than 9 speed. 8 speed definitely makes the most sense for DH bikes IMO. 9 speed requires a tad bit more adjustment and maintenance for whatever that's worth.

2 ring front setups are the future for AM/XC IMO and carbon certainly has a place for components built for those riding conditions. and even for some DH applications - V10 link for example.

10 speed for XC - ok sure... but the thing that interests me about 10 speed cassettes is the 1x10 possibilities... like a 10T-38T cassette for FR/AM that will offer more range than a 1x9 and retain single ring simplicity...

Transcend · Nov 13, 2008

BaNZ said:
Oh well I'll say it's just some more crap from Taiwan factories. Yeah you guys can say all crap coming from Taiwan factories, yup it does but we're definetely don't need some 10spd cassetes really.

- yeah the same with mine.

- just try a Shimano, their hi-end components aren't sucky at all.

- but I'll support you anyway.

What the hell was all that? Completely incomprehensible.

no skid marks · Nov 13, 2008

Can they make a 10tooth sprocket for a cassette? Why not just do that for 8 speed?
I run a 6speed(8speed stuff modified)on my hardtail that I do everything on, and I live in a fairly hilly area(for Australia), I'm running 38 front with 11-30 rear. The gear changes are a bit rough due to the size in tooth jumps, but it's still fine.
My girlfriend who has little experience or bike fitness is on a 38 front 11-32 8speed set up, and she can ride up most stuff.
10speed shifting would be nice and light, but it's two more shifts compared to 8, and the perfect cadence isn't needed for dirt like road, because most of the hills aren't long enough, and durability is more beneficial.
I'll sign up for 5 or 6 speed shifters or high quality 5,6 or 8 speed shifters and an XO mech that the limit screws will work for 5 or 6 speed.
The dishless rear wheel and durability is worth more to me than 2 more gears to me, even for XC.

buildyourown · Nov 13, 2008

gratiflying said:
i

10 speed for XC - ok sure... but the thing that interests me about 10 speed cassettes is the 1x10 possibilities... like a 10T-38T cassette for FR/AM that will offer more range than a 1x9 and retain single ring simplicity...

That won't happen. The whole point adding gears on road and xc bikes is to make the ratios tighter.

Bikael Molton · Nov 13, 2008

I just hope the whole industry isn't forced to go to 10speed just for the sake of the couple percentage of riders who are elite XC racers. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's the growth demographic for the industry... ?

It seems like we are finally on a good development track with short cage rear derailleurs, light 83mm BB cranksets and 150mm rear-ends for big bikes. How about a new 6 speed standard for gravity bikes - lighter and less rear wheel dish for stronger wheels? Lots of tinkerers on Ridemonkey and semi-pros/pros are already running that for Dual/4x.

OGRipper · Nov 13, 2008

I might be wrong but I don't think a 10-tooth cog is workable with current freehub/axle standards, pretty sure the diameter is too big. 11's are already pushing it. To make a 10 I think they'd have to use something like a step down set up or some other new design. Not sure but getting sufficient wrap might also be an issue with current chain link spacing.

no skid marks · Nov 13, 2008

rpet said:
I just hope the whole industry isn't forced to go to 10speed just for the sake of the couple percentage of riders who are elite XC racers. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's the growth demographic for the industry... ?

It seems like we are finally on a good development track with short cage rear derailleurs, light 83mm BB cranksets and 150mm rear-ends for big bikes. How about a new 6 speed standard for gravity bikes - lighter and less rear wheel dish for stronger wheels? Lots of tinkerers on Ridemonkey and semi-pros/pros are already running that for Dual/4x.

With 5 or 6 speed, you don't need the 150mm rear as the 135 can be made dishless, without the 150 rear, you don't need the 83mm BB so you get better ground clearance and Q factor. Doesn't help with room for suspension on some designs though. I don't think the slightly wider stance of 83mm BB would make much difference to stiffness or strength.

gratiflying · Nov 13, 2008

no skid marks said:
Can they make a 10tooth sprocket for a cassette? Why not just do that for 8 speed?
I run a 6speed(8speed stuff modified)on my hardtail that I do everything on, and I live in a fairly hilly area(for Australia), I'm running 38 front with 11-30 rear. The gear changes are a bit rough due to the size in tooth jumps, but it's still fine.
My girlfriend who has little experience or bike fitness is on a 38 front 11-32 8speed set up, and she can ride up most stuff.

different riding up here... trail riding in north van, whistler, pemby, squamish, etc. requires lower gears than 38/32. a fit rider can survive with a 32 middle but it is beyond punishing on a 30lb bike when you are 3, 4 or 5 hours into an epic ride. traction is also an issue when powering up tech climbs pushing a 1:1 ratio or more.

sanjuro · Nov 13, 2008

buildyourown said:
That won't happen. The whole point adding gears on road and xc bikes is to make the ratios tighter.

Yep that's right.

I don't think a tighter ratio is as important for mtn bikes than road because you spin less.

On the road, having a 16 tooth cog was critical for me in racing, 18 was nice to have, but I didn't require an 11 but I could have used one.

With 8 speed, I could have used an 11-18 but then I would have to cross chain.

With 10 speed, I can run a 11-21 with only two missing cogs, so then I would have a climbing gear and my favorite cogs in the big ring were not cross chaining as much.

On the mountain bike, I only care if I have a 32 or a 34. I don't know if I have a 11 or 12 small cog, or how many teeth my 5th cog has.

Bikael Molton · Nov 13, 2008

I mostly agree, and my post was confusing, since I was trying to cover both "little" 135mm hub gravity bikes for 4x/Dual and long travel bikes.

The problem is that there are no 5-6 speed optimized stock components available.

no skid marks said:
With 5 or 6 speed, you don't need the 150mm rear as the 135 can be made dishless, without the 150 rear, you don't need the 83mm BB so you get better ground clearance and Q factor. Doesn't help with room for suspension on some designs though. I don't think the slightly wider stance of 83mm BB would make much difference to stiffness or strength.

buildyourown · Nov 13, 2008

sanjuro said:
Yep that's right.

I don't think a tighter ratio is as important for mtn bikes than road because you spin less.

Right. My point was that the only mountain bikers would really benefit would be the fringe xc race crowd. The people who do 5 hours rides on fire roads.

That said, I have 8sp on my road bike because I found some Ultegra 600 STI shifter for cheap. What a mistake. It's tough to use a tight ratio cassette in Seattle. A 12-28 8sp isn't very fun on a road bike.

buildyourown · Nov 13, 2008

rpet said:
. How about a new 6 speed standard for gravity bikes - lighter and less rear wheel dish for stronger wheels?.

YES. Maybe the market segment is just too small but I really wish somebody would make a 12x150mm 6sp hub....and a high-end 8sp spaced shifter.
If I only had the capital to buy a couple turning centers...

Curious_George · Nov 13, 2008

some pics anyone?

ska todd · Nov 13, 2008

buildyourown said:
Right. My point was that the only mountain bikers would really benefit would be the fringe xc race crowd. The people who do 5 hours rides on fire roads.

That "fringe" is WAY bigger than most of us in the DH community would ever think. The number of riders buying 25lb/140mm & less bikes dwarfs that of the strictly 7"+ bike crowd. The purchase of light, geeky stuff is not limited to just the carbon hardtail and racing crowd...'specially in Europe. While the actual performance benefit for non-racers might be negligible, if it stokes people out and gets them into riding mountain bikes more, then that's a benefit to the sport as a whole.

-ska todd

DirtyDog · Nov 13, 2008

XC is fringe now? :lighten:

General Lee · Nov 13, 2008

ska todd said:
That "fringe" is WAY bigger than most of us in the DH community would ever think. The number of riders buying 25lb/140mm & less bikes dwarfs that of the strictly 7"+ bike crowd. The purchase of light, geeky stuff is not limited to just the carbon hardtail and racing crowd...'specially in Europe. While the actual performance benefit for non-racers might be negligible, if it stokes people out and gets them into riding mountain bikes more, then that's a benefit to the sport as a whole.

-ska todd

Stop, stop, stop making sense. this is ridemonkey damnit! :crazy:

Huck Banzai · Nov 13, 2008

Please bring 8 speed back.

I use about 5 of my cogs for DH, 7 for FR/AM and climbaholic XC; Like someone above said - road bike? sure - tighter, progressive rations -- MTB? we need range, not more gears.

I have a 1x8 HT - 36x12-28 -- I might be challenged from time to time, but I havent had to walk that bike up or down anything. I am FAR from a strong rider in terms of CV health.

So we sacrifice substance for style, bling and novelty - people are lemmings! Now back to marketing 101................................what good is reality, when perception is so warm and cozy.

buildyourown · Nov 13, 2008

ska todd said:
That "fringe" is WAY bigger than most of us in the DH community would ever think. The number of riders buying 25lb/140mm & less bikes dwarfs that of the strictly 7"+ bike crowd. The purchase of light, geeky stuff is not limited to just the carbon hardtail and racing crowd...'specially in Europe. While the actual performance benefit for non-racers might be negligible, if it stokes people out and gets them into riding mountain bikes more, then that's a benefit to the sport as a whole.

-ska todd

xc isn't finge, but xc race is. Especially people who would actually benefit from a tighter ratio cassette. 25lb/140mm isn't XC race.

Banshee Rider · Nov 13, 2008

I know plenty of people who don't race, but outfit their bikes as if they did. You know as well as anyone, that's not a factor. Otherwise, all the weekend warriors on here would be debating between a Boxxer Race or Team, and wether to use a Sram X5 or X7 drivetrain. If there is money to be spent on an upgrade, regardless of how essential it is, your average obsessive-personality mountain biker will open their wallet. Now that this has been spelled out; compare the sixr of the gravity scene with the number of people turning pedals on xc bikes - that's all Todd is saying.

Sir_Crackien · Nov 13, 2008

buildyourown not even xc race is fringe by any means. there are atleast 150 people that show up to race the local races. more often than not now they have to cap the number of people that can enter the race.

no skid marks · Nov 13, 2008

gratiflying said:
different riding up here... trail riding in north van, whistler, pemby, squamish, etc. requires lower gears than 38/32. a fit rider can survive with a 32 middle but it is beyond punishing on a 30lb bike when you are 3, 4 or 5 hours into an epic ride. traction is also an issue when powering up tech climbs pushing a 1:1 ratio or more.

But that's only an issue because they only make a **** quality 34 tooth 8 speed rear cassette. You still don't really need the choice of perfect faster cadences, just go slower if you do, or make a custom climbing cassette.

rpet said:
I mostly agree, and my post was confusing, since I was trying to cover both "little" 135mm hub gravity bikes for 4x/Dual and long travel bikes.

The problem is that there are no 5-6 speed optimized stock components available.

Do Shimanno deraileurs limit screws work(even if longer ones are added)8 speed shifters are fine for 5 or 6, but can you get XT or higher standard Shimanno new style 8 speeds? I wish they made an XO 8 speed. The guts on all Sram shifters are different aren't they? Or can I transplant my 06 X7/07 X5 guts in there? Even the X5 has been down graded now, stock up kids, the apocalypse is coming.

buildyourown said:
YES. Maybe the market segment is just too small but I really wish somebody would make a 12x150mm 6sp hub....and a high-end 8sp spaced shifter.
If I only had the capital to buy a couple turning centers...

What's the point in a 150mm 6 speed? You already have a dishless rear wheel, a large aluminium spoke protector in place of the largest sprocket might be better, and or two close spaced gears where you mainly use them for certain tracks you ride often.

Rover Nick · Nov 14, 2008

Why are people talking about what gears they use in DH when the topic at hand is super light XC stuff? People need different gears for different applications.

There's a reason why F1 Cars have 6 gears and Nascars only have 4 gears and Semi Trucks can need as many as 18 gears?

no skid marks · Nov 14, 2008

This is the DH section.

SRAM to launch a complete high-end MTB grouppo

Born Again Newbie

<b>WAY</b> Dumber than N8 (to the power of ten alm

Turbo Monkey

Born Again Newbie

Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Fluffer

Turbo Fluffer

Monkey

Chimp

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

back alley ripper

Turbo Monkey

Tube Smuggler

Artisanal Tweet Curator

Chimp

My Nuts Are Flat

Monkey

Turbo Monkey

goofy for life

back alley ripper

Monkey

Chimp

Tube Smuggler

goofy for life

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Gang probed by the Golden Banana

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Monkey

Monkey

Monkey