any advantages to the lawwill suspension?

So it had a bb eccentric pivot? Doesn't the current Rotec use the same design- BB eccentric with Lawill design? Lenz Sport uses a single pivot eccentric.

I think you mean concentric..

my rotec pedals pretty well. much better than my previous stab anyway.
you get very little chain growth and it makes for a very stiff back-end

not all lawwill bikes have the pivot around the bb. take the old tomac 204 for example. i think astrix make a lawwill bike too
schwinn used too as well as did yeti.
i really like the old 204 magnums apart from the braking.

I remember talking to Sully at Rotec, and he was telling me the original lawwill was decided as a concentric BB, but companies moved the pivot back away from the BB for ease of manufacture, cost, and so on.

I am also pretty sure the rotec has near perfectly vertical wheel travel, or at least damn close.

I also know that that bike is silly amounts of fun, and that Lawwill may have its slight negatives, but the positives overwhelm them by a long shot.

not really....the idea was that the travel moved perfectly vertically as the linkage/pivot locations sort of formed a parallelogram(if i'm not mistaked)

as far as i'm concerned, that is good for marketing purposes only.....as a rider encounters a bump while moving forward the bump does not act on the suspension perfectly vertically...it wants to push the axle up and back away from the bike....hard to explain, but its of no great advantage as far as most people are concerned.....smoke and mirrors

Ian Collins said:

not really....the idea was that the travel moved perfectly vertically as the linkage/pivot locations sort of formed a parallelogram(if i'm not mistaked)

as far as i'm concerned, that is good for marketing purposes only.....as a rider encounters a bump while moving forward the bump does not act on the suspension perfectly vertically...it wants to push the axle up and back away from the bike....hard to explain, but its of no great advantage as far as most people are concerned.....smoke and mirrors

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Yea but if your stays get longer it doesn't corner as well

TheMontashu said:

Yea but if your stays get longer it doesn't corner as well

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your stays will also get longer with lawill if the axle is moving perfectly vertically

TheMontashu said:

Yea but if your stays get longer it doesn't corner as well

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Than why not just get sth with shortening CS like most low SPs? Or if you like smoothness go rearward but with very short static CS like the Canfields did on their Jedi DH rig. From what most ppl tell that bike corners amazingly (I'm still thinking about it.)

i really like the pivot based around the bb. you can run it with no tensioner and do a rolhoff rear hub and have 14 gears and no dr's. sweetness to me.

unskilled said:

i really like the pivot based around the bb. you can run it with no tensioner and do a rolhoff rear hub and have 14 gears and no dr's. sweetness to me.

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Not with a Lawill. With a normal concentric BB yes, Cove G Spot for example, but with the Rotec(I have one) the axle moves vertically for about 7.5 to 8 inches of travel and then it starts to go back for the rest of the travel.

As far as Lawill being a marketing gimmick, maybe. I can say that I didn't think much about it when I first got the Rotec, but after riding the bike I was amazed at how fast it was and how well it carried speed. The biggest area that I noticed the vertical axle path was when I would hit something in a harsh manner it didn't slow me down or screw up my line; I felt it, but on the Demo 9 I had before I would lose speed and get off line.

I love the Lawhill design, always been a favourite, appart from weight, it offers a very stiff rear end with a large widow for rear wheel travel design.
Yeti made a huge mistake abandonning it.
Has anyone owned an old Yeti DH9 and a new Yeti 303? What was really better?
Whack an idler on a Lawhill and the sky's the limit for good design, Sully seems to have it fairly sorted.

stinky6 said:

I was amazed at how fast it was and how well it carried speed. The biggest area that I noticed the vertical axle path was when I would hit something in a harsh manner it didn't slow me down or screw up my line; I felt it, but on the Demo 9 I had before I would lose speed and get off line.

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truth

the Rotec carries speed through eveything imaginable! the rear end is so responsive throughout every bit of travel, and unless you hit something bad with your front end, theres just no slowing the bike down... even with my two-years-since-rebuild Romic
another bonus is that there is basically no such thing as a harsh bottom out when using the Lawwill suspension... my bike bottoms out with ease off of a three stair, so yo can imagne how gnarly it must be off of an 8 foot cliff! but in reality, the bottom out is relatively gentle on your body, the bike, and most of all, your speed... the Lawwill setup seriously accelerates out of every compression, no matter the circumstances...

and the way Sully designs his bikes, theres an amazing sweet spot that encompasses pedaling, sensitivity, balace and perfect sag... i have never ridden a bike that feels as active, responsive, and geometrically sound as a Rotec, and it all stems from that Lawwill rear end...

personally i dont think the Lawwill design has anything to do with marketing... it is a truly performing design

.02

Hey all, I have to say that when I came across this thread yesterday I was pleasantly surprised!

Its not often that theres so much chatter about the Lawwill design or the rotec in general.

Though I am stoked, I'm always abit hesitant to discuss matters regarding our stuff as sometimes things may get taken out of context or it may offend folks.

Thats the risk one takes I suppose when you chose to speak frankly in a public discussion.

As for the Lawwill design? Its history speaks for itself and though I designed the RL9, I can't speak for Mert regarding the nuances of his design or his patent(s) in general.

On the other hand though, boy can I ramble (and those who know me, know I can) regarding our design and why it is what it is.

I already see things that I'd like to respond to in this thread that would make for great discussions with all of you.

If everyone is game I'd like to play!

In my opinion it's always awesome when the people who design the bikes give their input on the forums. I think we'd all love to hear what you have to say.

... i wasnt talking out of my azz though...
hahaha

lets hear it Sully, i've heard tons over the phone, but i'd love to see it in text!

With all respect to Sully,

Has anybody ridden both the yeti DH9 and a Rotec within a relatively short amount of time(enough to remember both well)? I've ridden a DH9, but not extensively on trail, have ridden the Rotec on trail for long enough to get used to it. My impressions were the Yeti pedalled significantly better - and while using a much lower tech shock (Fox Vanilla RC vs 5th Element). Both were owned by people about the same weight and within 15-20 lbs of myself. The Rotec felt pretty good; especially with slower speed square edge bumps, albeit mushy compared to what I'm used to (spring weight more than considered).

So my question is, where does the Yeti lack in comparison to the Rotec? I am genuinely curious the effect of the different pivot positions after hearing so much why the Rotec's is where it is and why the Yeti's wasn't. Remember, only those who've actually ridden both.

John Sullivan` said:

If everyone is game I'd like to play!

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There is nothing I love more then seeing the actual designers of bikes actually talking about their bikes in an open discussion. Its why I'm riding a canfield bro's frame, and probably the only other bikes I'd consider are dw, turner, corsair, and banshee.

I'd love to hear some ramblings!

Just found this on the net, little less tech but interesting insight into the man himself:

MERT LAWWILL WHO GAINED FAME FROM THE 1970 MOVIE "ON ANY SUNDAY" SITTING ON HIS HARLEY DAVIDSON KR-750 FLAT TRACKER MOTORCYCLE. CIRCA 1970. Mert Lawwill is an American dirt-track and road racer, born on September 25, 1940 in Boise, Idaho. He started his racing career as an amateur racer on the local TT track in Boise and, later, scramble races across the United States Northwest . He turned professional in 1963 after moving to California and, in 1964, signed a contract to race dirt-track for manufacturer Harley-Davidson, with which he would stay for the rest of his racing career. He won his first AMA national race at the famous Sacramento Mile on September 19, 1965. He won the 1969 Grand National Champion title and was voted AMA's Most Popular Rider of the Year the same year. His popularity earned him a co-starring role in Bruce Brown's 1970's classic motorcycle epic, On Any Sunday with actor Steve McQueen, and off-road rider Malcolm Smith. This film revealed Mert Lawwill's talents as a technician but unfortunately showcased a series of "DNFs". But by the time he retired in 1977, due to an inner-ear disorder that affected his balance, he had amassed an incredible 161 career AMA Grand National finishes during his 15-year racing career. He is now spending his time developing race motorcycles as well as mountain bikes. He also developed a prosthetic to allow arm amputees to ride a motorcycle. He was inducted in the AMA Motorcycle Hall of Fame in 1998

Very interesting i thought....

William42 said:

There is nothing I love more then seeing the actual designers of bikes actually talking about their bikes in an open discussion. Its why I'm riding a canfield bro's frame, and probably the only other bikes I'd consider are dw, turner, corsair, and banshee.

I'd love to hear some ramblings!

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You should add Intense to that list. Jeff Steber talks about his designs and asks for feedback here and on MTBR.

DW liked the lawwill enough to copy it

headshot, even if it was with a spud gun.

WBC said:

With all respect to Sully,

Has anybody ridden both the yeti DH9 and a Rotec within a relatively short amount of time(enough to remember both well)? I've ridden a DH9, but not extensively on trail, have ridden the Rotec on trail for long enough to get used to it. My impressions were the Yeti pedalled significantly better - and while using a much lower tech shock (Fox Vanilla RC vs 5th Element). Both were owned by people about the same weight and within 15-20 lbs of myself. The Rotec felt pretty good; especially with slower speed square edge bumps, albeit mushy compared to what I'm used to (spring weight more than considered).

So my question is, where does the Yeti lack in comparison to the Rotec? I am genuinely curious the effect of the different pivot positions after hearing so much why the Rotec's is where it is and why the Yeti's wasn't. Remember, only those who've actually ridden both.

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Four years ago I switched from a Yeti DH9 (rode for 2 years) directly to a RL9, my brother went back and forth between the yeti for a while and the RL9. (There was only one RL9 in existance at the time, and we were lucky enough to have it!) To sum it up the best I can, I would say, The Rotec feels to me like a refined version of the Yeti. Very similar in many ways, but improved and refined. Both Brian and I felt like the RL9 pedaled much better, quicker acceleration, better build which probably helped, but I've never felt like my RL9 has lacked in pedaling. The dropouts are improved over the Yeti to allow a better replacable hanger system, the hangers were also tweaked and improved after the first year as well. The floating shock also helps make it a bit more supple and progressive then the Yeti.
Just spent my fourth season on an RL9, great bike! Thanks Sully!

I talked with a local DH'er this summer at one of the Fluidride races who rode the RL9. He really liked it and I've like the design for some time now and talking the bike over sounds like it would really fit my riding style well.
The fact that Rotec is about 2 hours north of me is pretty temping as well. Heck, I even saved the Rotec number into my phone so that once I sell a few of my downhill frames I can try to order one up.

-Kevin

i think its awsome to see some one who was such a great motercycle racer making suspention designs that really work well.

Way to dig a thread up from the grave...

dropmachine.com said:

I remember talking to Sully at Rotec, and he was telling me the original lawwill was decided as a concentric BB, but companies moved the pivot back away from the BB for ease of manufacture, cost, and so on.

I am also pretty sure the rotec has near perfectly vertical wheel travel, or at least damn close.

I also know that that bike is silly amounts of fun, and that Lawwill may have its slight negatives, but the positives overwhelm them by a long shot.

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Dropmachine... You have a good point. Look at the Canfield Jedi (canfield bikes)... way better.