damn me if it rides like it looks this will be great to super awesome bike.
I really like it.
can't wait
I really like it.
can't wait
Superco DH pictures
- Thread starter DIRT-HQ
- Start date
Wow, it looks like this Doc guy has knocked that Dave guy off as the hero of choice for the dh-internet-idol-worshiping masses. Everybody - on your knees.
This could indeed be the latest best bike ever. I just wouldn't call it beautiful.
This could indeed be the latest best bike ever. I just wouldn't call it beautiful.
Eh, Doc builds good bikes as well as designs them. That alone demands respect. It's fine if you love the way your xyz bike rides, but it means something to some people that their bike was built with love and care by somebody you can actually meet or talk to.
I am also enamored by the fact that there's little or no marketing terminology. No anti-squat curves, no instant centers, no dual-reactive-climate-controlled-automatic-steering-link-triangle-pivot. It's a single pivot with a rising rate link, built by a guy who cares about bikes, in the US, designed by him and welded by him. Pretty simple. I think that's cool. Then he took it a little further, trimmed the fat, and modified it to work a little better. That's better.
There aren't a lot of US frame builders that actually build in the US anymore. Most everybody else farms out welding to either taiwan or kinesis/etc., or assembly, or something else. My race link is going on 7 years of service. I think it had one factory rebuild during that time. How many late model race frames do people burn up in a season alone from the big box guys?
I am also enamored by the fact that there's little or no marketing terminology. No anti-squat curves, no instant centers, no dual-reactive-climate-controlled-automatic-steering-link-triangle-pivot. It's a single pivot with a rising rate link, built by a guy who cares about bikes, in the US, designed by him and welded by him. Pretty simple. I think that's cool. Then he took it a little further, trimmed the fat, and modified it to work a little better. That's better.
There aren't a lot of US frame builders that actually build in the US anymore. Most everybody else farms out welding to either taiwan or kinesis/etc., or assembly, or something else. My race link is going on 7 years of service. I think it had one factory rebuild during that time. How many late model race frames do people burn up in a season alone from the big box guys?
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good points. great to see the garage craftsman can still make a go of it (and build cutting edge hardware) in todays market. the lack of marketing foof & hype generating tactics is refreshing. knolly's dig at suspension jargon was awesome: 'Omega Metered Factored Gaussian Super Theoretical Forward Ultimate (OMFG STFU) pivot technology. build a great product & people will come.
Looks brilliant. Would love to be able to afford one.
Agree that a slightly higher BB and slightly steeper HA would be preferable (which would be simple enough to accomplish with two shock mounting points...).
If the BB is a remotely standard width, you can drop another .5lbs easy with modern aluminum cranks.
Can't wait for the release.
Agree that a slightly higher BB and slightly steeper HA would be preferable (which would be simple enough to accomplish with two shock mounting points...).
If the BB is a remotely standard width, you can drop another .5lbs easy with modern aluminum cranks.
Can't wait for the release.
agreed, would like to see something besides profiles, at least some of the ultralight bmx cranks they're developing. with the tree/spindle drive sprocket you no longer have to use LHD cranks...
Looks like the same profile-dedicated setup, which isn't that heavy.
Sure, it looks chunky with the big eccentric on there, but it's all hollow, and the bearing are pretty low profile. It's really not bad. If I'm not mistaken, Saint Cranks are 2 oz lighter than profiles with a steel spindle, and a ti profile spindle drops 1/2 pound. Weight penalty isn't that bad. It wouldn't hurt to have a bit more flexibility, but I actually really like that they're staying with the old BB setup.
If you're listening to this, Doc. If there's room to squeeze a 37mm hole (quite large, I know) in those eccentric plates that would allow the use of spanish and outboard type cranks. Might help appease both crowds.
Edit: Sorry if anyone asked already, but do you have a figure for the build weight on the bike pictured?
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Thanks for the propers and other comments.
The following answers provided by Doc. (As you'll note from the lack of smilies and exclamation points.)
While the CS length does increase a lot through the stroke, it almost perfectly mirrors the front axle path through the fork's stroke. When both ends move equally the WB stays just about constant, with the weight bias moving rearward. This adds even more stability through big hits, high speed landings to flat and mega G outs. With both ends fully compressed the WB actually shrinks a few millimeters.
Regarding top tube height/seat tube length - larger frame sizes will have both a longer TT and ST for bigger riders so that there is not too much post extension. Of course at the cost of 1.5 to 2.5 ounces.
!)
Fixed that for you.
The following answers provided by Doc. (As you'll note from the lack of smilies and exclamation points.)
The BB really is 13.5". Yes that is extremely low for a 9" travel bike. It does require the rider to visually coordinate obstacles approcaching with pedalling cadence, much like pedaling over a whoop on a BMX track. Lowering the BB is likely the best way to add stability, it lowers the rider's CG, not just the CG of the bike. It makes the bike corner and manual better. The low BB works extremely well with the low height and even lower bars. This combo of low BB and low/wide bars adds a ton of control and allows for quick handling despite the slack head angle and plush suspension. We've been testing this super low setup for the past 3 years, both East and West, with good results. And if it's too low, a link of chain can be removed from the left side and the eccentric BB rotated up for an additional 3/8" (9.5mm) of height.
The frame is made from True Temper Supertherm tubing which does rust just like any steel. It's our standard practice for the first few weeks of initial testing to be done with the frame unpainted in case any modifications are needed with the welder. Just for reference I believe the OX Platinum series of tubing is the same material as Supertherm but in wall thicknesses and diameters that are road bike/XC oriented.
We're doing the initial testing with an Avalanche shock because it's still the best performing shock available even if others may be lighter. We will be working with other companies during testing to dial in other options.
The pivot point is only slightly higher than the old RL, it's more the BB is so much lower it makes the pivot look high. The pivot is also farther back, making a much shorter swingarm. The location allows for the super short starting chainstay length of 16.5" without the tire hitting the seat. The wheel moves only back and away from the seat. Never toward it. This location also helps the bike turn and maual better as the frame does not fold the suspension as much (when lifting to manual and thru G's of mid turn) as the lower more forward pivot and longer swingarm. This feature, like the low BB/bars, helps the bike snap out of corners better.
While the CS length does increase a lot through the stroke, it almost perfectly mirrors the front axle path through the fork's stroke. When both ends move equally the WB stays just about constant, with the weight bias moving rearward. This adds even more stability through big hits, high speed landings to flat and mega G outs. With both ends fully compressed the WB actually shrinks a few millimeters.
I raced Angel Fire to an expert class 2nd and 4th with a 13.5" BB and 170mm cranks without a problem. Those courses are a total blast and are my favorite next to the old Mt Snow Nationals Finals Course.
Regarding top tube height/seat tube length - larger frame sizes will have both a longer TT and ST for bigger riders so that there is not too much post extension. Of course at the cost of 1.5 to 2.5 ounces.
We will make pink available just for you! (t's edit: okay, one exclamation point, i lied.
!)The new shaft configuration is not backward compatible.
RH chain backwards??? It's a KMC X9 chain that does have some contour's to the sides of the plates. Is there a known correct direction? If so it was not listed on the packaging. (t's note: quite the eye you have there damo?!)
Please no hero worship talk. We're all just doing our thing. And there's a lot of things. And a lot of we's. And nobody does their thing better than they do.
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^excellent answers! much appreciated.
That bike is amazing, i'd love to buy one and just know i would never need to buy a DH frame again.
I think it's great that you have gone all out on the aggressive geometry, no compromises, just a balls out, fast bike.
That bike is amazing, i'd love to buy one and just know i would never need to buy a DH frame again.
I think it's great that you have gone all out on the aggressive geometry, no compromises, just a balls out, fast bike.
Wow
Fantastic looking bike, love the numbers too!
Congrats Doc & Terry getting to this point enjoy the proto testing in bootleg sounds like it'll be fun!
Oh and nice interview on Dirt.
Also many thanks for the Tee It gets worn lots and hasn't been washed yet, dam nice and much appreciated you guy's rock!
Fantastic looking bike, love the numbers too!
Congrats Doc & Terry getting to this point enjoy the proto testing in bootleg sounds like it'll be fun!
Oh and nice interview on Dirt.
Also many thanks for the Tee It gets worn lots and hasn't been washed yet, dam nice and much appreciated you guy's rock!
i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it looks like ass... and not the kind of ass that you want to see in a bikini. puke-o-rama.
ok, i don't honestly think that. i just wanted to have an opposing viewpoint so i could get into this thread without having to wait in the growing line for the reach-around-fest.
ok, i don't honestly think that. i just wanted to have an opposing viewpoint so i could get into this thread without having to wait in the growing line for the reach-around-fest.
An awesome looking bike indeed. For a long time I have not felt the desire to buy another bike (already being an owner of one of Doc's earlier creations), but my desire to drop gold on a new sled has now been rewoken ! 
Thanks for the answers Terry.
I was at AF when Doc took 2nd. I met you at the time (I had the white Brooklyn) I have no doubt a 13.5" BB is beneficial under Doc's control. I guess I didn't stress the word "HACK" enough, when making my comment.:biggrin:
I'd still like to see Doc try to come up with something that would a least give an option to raise the BB a little, the idea of an extra shock mounting hole seems good. Even an extra 3/8" with the EBB at top is still pretty low.
BTW. Tell Doc I'll be gunning for him next season. I'm now Cat 1 45+
I was at AF when Doc took 2nd. I met you at the time (I had the white Brooklyn) I have no doubt a 13.5" BB is beneficial under Doc's control. I guess I didn't stress the word "HACK" enough, when making my comment.:biggrin:
I'd still like to see Doc try to come up with something that would a least give an option to raise the BB a little, the idea of an extra shock mounting hole seems good. Even an extra 3/8" with the EBB at top is still pretty low.
BTW. Tell Doc I'll be gunning for him next season. I'm now Cat 1 45+
steel is real...and that bike is tits.
Wow Im in bike heaven this year!
Aside of mine which is my personal #1 there are some STUPID SICK frams this year! Glad i found mine before this would have made a frame purchase super hard for the unknowing rider.
Superco is super sick!!!!!!!
Trek 88 is another supewr sick looking bike in its own right.
the kittYpuk or whatever the new zealand frame is called (name of some spider) is sick
the M6 for good reasons
Tha hamemrschmidt etc...
Its a good year!
Aside of mine which is my personal #1 there are some STUPID SICK frams this year! Glad i found mine before this would have made a frame purchase super hard for the unknowing rider.
Superco is super sick!!!!!!!
Trek 88 is another supewr sick looking bike in its own right.
the kittYpuk or whatever the new zealand frame is called (name of some spider) is sick
the M6 for good reasons
Tha hamemrschmidt etc...
Its a good year!
DOC!
Well done! Looks like a killer evolution of the Racelink platform. Lighter and with race-friendly geo. NICE!
Looks sick too!
:biggrin:
Well done! Looks like a killer evolution of the Racelink platform. Lighter and with race-friendly geo. NICE!
Looks sick too!
:biggrin:
kitty what?
Regarding top tube height/seat tube length - larger frame sizes will have both a longer TT and ST for bigger riders so that there is not too much post extension. Of course at the cost of 1.5 to 2.5 ounces.
I like the sounds of this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I like the sounds of this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think he was talking about the Katipo....
The hack testing will commence soon. I'm a prime subject (or suspect?) for pedal smack issue so I'll let you know how it goes once I get some runs in on it.Thanks for the answers Terry.
I was at AF when Doc took 2nd. I met you at the time (I had the white Brooklyn) I have no doubt a 13.5" BB is beneficial under Doc's control. I guess I didn't stress the word "HACK" enough, when making my comment.:biggrin:
I'd still like to see Doc try to come up with something that would a least give an option to raise the BB a little, the idea of an extra shock mounting hole seems good. Even an extra 3/8" with the EBB at top is still pretty low.
BTW. Tell Doc I'll be gunning for him next season. I'm now Cat 1 45+
I saw you and your son this summer from the lift at Sol Vista on a nice quiet weekend but didn't manage to catch up with you. Was still good to see you and your boy tearing it up.
when can we expect a close-up pic of the linkage? and i don't mean all cropped up like the teaser pic either...
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a katipo, it's a spider and every one knows how badass spiders are!
No, thanks.
Forwarded from Doc: "Stoked, good question. The tubes are not post weld heat treated as in "the frame goes in an oven" or something. "Air Hardening" as both True Temper and Reynolds term it, is referring to a property of the material that after being heated by the weld, as the material cools back to room temperature the grain structure of the steel aligns itself in such a way that it is harder and stronger than it was before being heated. Kind of an automatic built in heat treating process. This is a very useful thing as it creates kind of a gradient of strength that radiates away from the weld and back into the mid span of the tube, greatly reducing the stress risers near the tube juncionts. Most steels do not have this poperty and in fact the opposite happens where the area around the weld gets softer and weakened by the heating/cooling cycle.
Interesting quote from the S&M site. They use a ton of this tubing so they know what they are talking about. Basically the two types use the same material just in different dimensions. OX is aimed at road/XC so the tubes are smaller longer and thinner walled than those of the Supertherm line."
WestCoastHucker, next photo update might not happen for another month or more, hard to say. I encourage you to not hold your breath. There will be some additional information provided when we post the bike on our own site next week. (Dirt Mag owns at the mo.) There is still some refining and streamlining to do, in the business district especially.
edit: grammar
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Holy Cow, I wished I'd seen you at Sol Vista.
Surely your hackmaster skills cannot compare with mine? When it comes to catching a pedal, I'm am king. Just recently, I managed to up root a large 100lb+ rock that was embedded 3" in the ground and knock it several feet down trail, coupled with spectacular "Superman" over the bars.
I sold my white link at the end of the 2007 season and now have Steve's (DHS) old Link. If you saw me on it, that was the only time I had it out this season. My first ride back on a Brooklyn since going to something "Racier".
I got it in pieces right now. Getting a complete refurb. I'm gonna race it for 09, but I'd be interested in Doc's new creation for 2010.
You know. You guys might want to seriously consider giving me a sponsored ride. Its not gonna bode well for Super co, if Doc is constantly finishing second to a Race Link
BTW. Who was that standing next to Doc in the Interbike video interview? I'd swear it was you, were it not for the loss of words. LOL.
Glad you guys are doing well. I fully expect a test ride if you guys are at AF in the spring.
Seriously, guys. This has been one of the least productive days I've had in a while. I checked this thread about every half hour all day. Thanks for the excitement.
OLDSKOOL: Yeah, that was me in the vid. And no, I don't smoke crack but apparently I look that way in interviews. It was my frist time on that side of the camera for an interview, can only get better from here.
You weren't on the RL at SV, it was early July, maybe a Turner. That's funny you're on Steve's old bike now. Quite the color combo, eh. No doubt it's been well cared for.
I was about to roll up my sleeves to challenge you to a Hackers Pedal-Smack Threat-Down but you got me with the 100 lb rock.
You weren't on the RL at SV, it was early July, maybe a Turner. That's funny you're on Steve's old bike now. Quite the color combo, eh. No doubt it's been well cared for.
I was about to roll up my sleeves to challenge you to a Hackers Pedal-Smack Threat-Down but you got me with the 100 lb rock.
AHHHHH yes. I remember that day well. Some how I managed to screw up the 30' + gap jump on course #2. My kid said it looked like Evil Knievel's Caesar Palace crash. With my 47 year old body cartwheeling down the mountain for a hundred feet. Unconscious for a least 3 minutes. 1 brand new helmet, ruined.
When my son climbed back up the mountain where my body lay, he said he knew I wasn't dead, cause I was snoring. LOL. I woke up and rode my bike back down the mountain and called it a day.
What I lack in skills, I make up for in shear refusal to die, no matter how bad I screw up. Which is good, cause I screw up a lot.
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
Doc/T, thanks for clearing up the differences between the tubesets. I've been starting to read about framebuilding and its really fascinating how such small differences in wall thickness and diameter can produce noticeably different ride traits.
Anyways. When are you gonna be back east to test the new whip at Platty??
irate2:
I'm really loving the look, and geometry of that bike, combined with the awesome OX Platinum tubing= a very rad bike.
I've got an OX Platinum bmx bike that's getting close to 7-8 years old and still holding up great.
Such a tempting bike.
-Kevin
I've got an OX Platinum bmx bike that's getting close to 7-8 years old and still holding up great.
Such a tempting bike.
-Kevin
Perfection, I was waiting with much anticipation for Doc's next creation, all along wondering how he could top his past designs. Really happy he stuck to his guns and refined this design. Everyone I know who has seen the pics wants one. A certain someone who I know quite well wants to race one in 09. Hope it happens !!!!
Congrats Doc and T, I approve 100%
Congrats Doc and T, I approve 100%
and thats all that matters.
and btw....i made cusmies TWICE...looks like my stable of Foes bikes might have a illegitimate brother
looks good. like the low center. bb is a bit to low and the ha a bit slack for me
but the racers should like it.
but the racers should like it.
The complete bike is now 37.9lb (17.2kg).
WOW !!!!!!!
WOW !!!!!!!
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