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cookie cutter frames

TGR

Monkey
Jan 9, 2006
263
3
I'm looking at getting a new frame for the next season and I started to notice the upcoming trend of using cookie cutter frames by some well known brands.

point in case:
UMF Duncan 2
http://p1.pinkbike.com/photo/2485/pbpic2485227.jpg

Kraftstoff
http://p1.pinkbike.com/photo/2451/pbpic2451362.jpg

Fezzari
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v370/Treaszh/P2240030.jpg

and some others...
I know, they do have a pretty generic geometry and probably don't really offer the best suspension system, but whatever, I kinda like them... And if they can't be bought for like dirt cheap, then nice, we have a winner here!

I just really want to know, is it possible to buy one frame directly from the supplier? Like a raw frame without stickers, shock and shizznit like that. Could be pretty nice for a small price I guess.
 

CrabJoe StretchPants

Reincarnated Crab Walking Head Spinning Bruce Dick
Nov 30, 2003
14,163
2,484
Groton, MA
If by well known brands using cookie cutter designs you mean obscure brands copying other designs, then yes, I see the trend.:brow:
 

TGR

Monkey
Jan 9, 2006
263
3
exactly, I'm well aware of this...

I just wanna know though if it's possible to buy frames directly from the distributor, or if you have to go through an order of 1000's of frames etc... to get some
 

djivotno

Monkey
Oct 3, 2008
108
0
This one is pretty bad, the suspension... does not work... AT ALL. A local company tested those, and in one week they wrote them off. They are using tha last best frame for fast DH on that catalog - THIS ONE

And.... i think ASTRO are in the middle of it all - atleast that's what i've noticed on some boxes ;)

Not bad work, i rode one (a retaged UMF Duncon 1/Eliminator 2 etc.)
 
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TGR

Monkey
Jan 9, 2006
263
3
well on the other side of the pond, yup, well at least more then in the states
 

jumping_jesus

Monkey
Jan 23, 2006
244
0
in your mind
no you cant buy straight from the manufacture unless you commit to X amount of frames or what ever. There is always a level of commitment when looking to buy frames parts or what ever companies like that. otherwise its not worth their time or money to sell just one and at that point it does not get any cheaper then paying retail or even wholesale. on that note good luck in your venture and I hope you can prove me wrong.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,032
5,923
borcester rhymes
looks similar to a tomac as well.

as far as getting one raw, I doubt it. You'd probably have to buy in quantity as they probably supply x number of frames to the above companies assembled in white. Then company y and z slap their stickers on it, slap crappy DH components on them, then sell them in stores for a huge markup over cost. No idea of the performance but with a pivot location similar to foes and tomac, it can't be all that bad. no idea of the shock leverage/linkage though.
 

Stray_cat

Monkey
Nov 13, 2007
460
0
Providence
A vendor won't be very excited about selling you a sample unless there's a known quantity of frames for production moving forward. Many times vendors charge 100% more for a sample(though not always the case), and you still have to get it to the states. If it's a smaller vendore there's also a chance english isn't spoken there too. So I believe someone else already mentioned getting the frame through a dist in Taiwan, which is probably pretty cost effective...however you still have to get it to the states. Before flights got crazy expensive I used to to just fly to Taiwan as opposed to spending tons of money on shipping samples.
 

TGR

Monkey
Jan 9, 2006
263
3
Well I'm gonna see, but if it can be less expensive than another "race" frame, why not do it?
 

Threepointtwo

Monkey
Jun 21, 2002
632
0
SLC, UT
OK, I would like to point out a few quick facts about the Fezzari Widows Peak. The current bike is very different from the other versions out there though they share the same front and rear triangles.

Yes, we started with the “catalog frame” mentioned above because it has a lot of what we were looking for – low standover height, low COG, a nice wheelpath, and inexpensive to build. Under testing, however, we found that the original suspension design was stiff in its initial travel then a falling rate kicked in and it went quickly through its travel (as shown above in Linkage). Obviously not ideal, so we built a new linkage for the Fezzari and changed the suspension feel completely. In the process, we also dropped the BB and slacked the HA slightly.

The bikes still look identical but don’t throw the Fezzari under the bus based on the performance of the others – they ride completely different. Take mine for a ride – I think you will be impressed.


 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
I think you are trying to hard instead of going for simplier solutions and just finding a nice priced frame without going threw the hussle of getting the damn thing from TW. There are still some nice frames of closeouts so why not go that way?
 
Apr 16, 2006
392
0
Golden, CO
It's pretty far from those, here (Notice the leverage):
Careful with that program and short linkages... Like has been said before, add in the resolution of the picture, the angle (which may not be perfectly perp. to the frame), the .1mm accuracy (good for designing frames, bad for modeling them from a .jpeg) and you get some discrepancies in your leverage curves fo shizzle. It's not bad for like a regular old single pivot, but it shouldn't be the end-all decision maker in situations like this.

Threepointtwo - Thats really cool how you took the design, found the flaws and fixed it with a simple Cnc milled set of linkages, it'd be interesting to try the before and after of them.
 

VMARTINEZ

Monkey
May 23, 2005
303
18
I have seen 32's bikes and they have had some big changes. One of my friends toke his bike for a run on the last day the Wolf was open and said the bike felt good. He rides a turner dhr and said it felt just as good in the chop and cornered very well. If you are in Utah check one out.
VM
 

djivotno

Monkey
Oct 3, 2008
108
0
Careful ....
Again with that, i do check the dimentions from the frame and compare them to the .ltx - yes it's not that precise, but a 95% is good enough to give someone an idea what's up with the frame (and 95% out of 5.2:1 leverage is still bad). Nothing can beat a good test ride, but there are many (me incl.) who can't test all the good frames for real.

...but it shouldn't be the end-all decision maker in situations like this...
That's for sure
, and IMO the catalog frame is worthless (this is based on a real test ride :) )

I can't say much from that pic, but i guess the leverage on the Fezzari won't go as far up as the catalog frame, so i guess (again) it won't blow through it's travel like the original.

Me... I'd try Moto Link on it :)
 

Threepointtwo

Monkey
Jun 21, 2002
632
0
SLC, UT
Careful with that program and short linkages... Like has been said before, add in the resolution of the picture, the angle (which may not be perfectly perp. to the frame), the .1mm accuracy (good for designing frames, bad for modeling them from a .jpeg) and you get some discrepancies in your leverage curves fo shizzle. It's not bad for like a regular old single pivot, but it shouldn't be the end-all decision maker in situations like this.

Threepointtwo - Thats really cool how you took the design, found the flaws and fixed it with a simple Cnc milled set of linkages, it'd be interesting to try the before and after of them.
That was a lot of fun to do and fortunately, that frame has a ton of room in the shock/linkage area to play with.

As far as the side by side comparison, I have one of each set up and it is night and day.
 

TGR

Monkey
Jan 9, 2006
263
3
I think you are trying to hard instead of going for simplier solutions and just finding a nice priced frame without going threw the hussle of getting the damn thing from TW. There are still some nice frames of closeouts so why not go that way?
I already have a relatively nice frame (custom swd crazy-8 with a vivid 5.1) but I'm maybe looking at something different, thing is, I'm relatively poor and slightly tired of dropping so much money on my bikes... That's why I'm trying to go down the cheap route... I can't justify paying 3000$ for a frame (that's in cad dollars, and I pay retail for everything, sucks to have no deals...)
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
I already have a relatively nice frame (custom swd crazy-8 with a vivid 5.1) but I'm maybe looking at something different, thing is, I'm relatively poor and slightly tired of dropping so much money on my bikes... That's why I'm trying to go down the cheap route... I can't justify paying 3000$ for a frame (that's in cad dollars, and I pay retail for everything, sucks to have no deals...)
Simpy go online and look for deals. I live in yurp and I can easily find us deals much below 3k cad.
BTW. Go ride doesn't ship to cad? 1600$ (us) for that frame is quite far from 3k cad ;)
 

beesonutah

Chimp
Apr 23, 2006
18
0
I also was in on the re-design of the Fezzari linkage and have to say that the new version rides every bit as good as my old Ventana. It took alot of trial and error, and a few prototype changes to finally get it right. But Fezzari has been great to work with and has the right attitude about putting out a great DH bike. As as a matter of fact their trail bike is the funnest 6" I have ever ridden. I post an open invitation to anyone coming threw Utah to come take any of them for a test ride. I have 4 diffrent models to choose from. I think you will be impressed. Also if you see any of us (fezzari riders) at the races. We would be glad to let you take her for a spin.
 

alko00

Chimp
Dec 16, 2011
3
0
Yeah, I know Im late on this thread, but I found it via google, and all I want to say, that easy with the hatin' on these Taiwan bikes. Astro just released the new 1 yo frame, that is used on wc events by NOVATEC CPM team, and KHS. its way better in every way , than FE the new glory. It has the Slovakian National Champ title. (Polc-beater) and so on. That ASDHK Astro frame is way better than described by some on this thread. It won a speedtrap and a sector time against MINNAAR in Tihany DH Hungary. I know , becouse I seen it happen. I also happen to have the old azonic replica from Astro, and it helpd me a lot in my rides. Have you actually seen one of these astro product break or snap? Search on pinkbike and you will see, that these are quality tank frames, on normal weight , and quite good geometri.. Dont test the geometri on softwares, email someone , who has one, or ridden one, thats the way to test it, and theres no other way. I had a Scream frame before, which snapped over the bb, and since than I use an astro, and it beats the Scream in every way. Stop hatin , just becouse you see a made in taiwan sign on them. Those people are hard workin, precise, and have top quality product management. If you dont beleive me, go to astroen. com and just look at their factoryvideo.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
Do you work for astro? Because no one here hates on tw made frames, some people just aren't too fond of catalog frames (and not all tw frames are catalog).

Also who won on what frame doesn't mean ****. Hill had great results on an IH SGS. Go buy that.
 

alko00

Chimp
Dec 16, 2011
3
0
well, I assure you, I dont work for Astro. But I do ride their work from time to time. I myself have their frame. The one that ripped off the azonic gravity back in the day. And recently I ridden my friends UMF duncan2 , licenced astro bike. In the first few comment on this forum a dude commented , that the linkage doesnt even work on that azonic ripoff, wich is truly a bull**** thing to say. I know it after testing it in Maribor and Semmering Austrian-Hungarian national. And Ram bikes has a team with the same bikes in UCI 2 class. Check out their blog. And also heres a link: http://bikemag.hu/kerekparteszt/freeride-downhill/jakesz-umf-duncan-2-es-dh-bringaja thats the guy sponsored by UMF , that destroyed Minnars sector time, wich is by the way mean something, when the whole track is only 2 sector. heres a link to the video from the track and event: http://esipictures.hu/index.php?cid=1
People try to find reasons every time catalog bikes come up, but its always "I heard it somewhere" "they said" bull****. I just want it to stop, before I feel bad about the fact , that I have one. These are completely normal frames

djivotno-s comment made me write that stuff. sorry if it hurt someones feelings, I didnt mean to.
Im planing on buying the UMF duncan 3 check it out on their homepage, Taiwan at its best.
 

SkullCrack

Monkey
Sep 3, 2004
705
127
PNW
well, I assure you, I dont work for Astro. But I do ride their work from time to time. I myself have their frame. The one that ripped off the azonic gravity back in the day. And recently I ridden my friends UMF duncan2 , licenced astro bike. In the first few comment on this forum a dude commented , that the linkage doesnt even work on that azonic ripoff, wich is truly a bull**** thing to say. I know it after testing it in Maribor and Semmering Austrian-Hungarian national. And Ram bikes has a team with the same bikes in UCI 2 class. Check out their blog. And also heres a link: http://bikemag.hu/kerekparteszt/freeride-downhill/jakesz-umf-duncan-2-es-dh-bringaja thats the guy sponsored by UMF , that destroyed Minnars sector time, wich is by the way mean something, when the whole track is only 2 sector. heres a link to the video from the track and event: http://esipictures.hu/index.php?cid=1
People try to find reasons every time catalog bikes come up, but its always "I heard it somewhere" "they said" bull****. I just want it to stop, before I feel bad about the fact , that I have one. These are completely normal frames

djivotno-s comment made me write that stuff. sorry if it hurt someones feelings, I didnt mean to.
Im planing on buying the UMF duncan 3 check it out on their homepage, Taiwan at its best.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
Dude I understand that english is not your first language but try to reread before you post because it looks even worse than some of the brainfarts I post on these forums.

As for that sector time:
1) WC pros don't go full speed on local races. At least most of them. No one wants to risk an injury. Do you know the full story behind Minnaars run?
2) Even if that guy was faster than Greg that doesn't mean that the bike was faster. I know you are connected to the company but seriously employ some critical thinking.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,032
5,923
borcester rhymes
Easy now, space cowboy. I don't know why you're all butthurt, coming on ridemonkey and posting twice, only when it refers to your bike. Anyways, I have it on good authority that yes indeed, that bike sucked before Fezzari made a very critical change to the linkage that turned it from a regressive shock rate to progressive. You probably have the latter, because everybody who has ridden a bike with one agrees that a regressive shock rate blows.

Take a look. Here's the original linkage:


And the updated one:


Fezzari appears to have updated their widows peak even further, but the linkage appears the same. While there's nothing inherently wrong with the updated model, it's still a bit heavier than many other options, and the geometry is very outdated without a reducer cup. There's little arguing that.
 

alko00

Chimp
Dec 16, 2011
3
0
you guys are right.. Theres no doubt about it. and Im sorry for looking like lil b*tch, on this forum. I just thougt I can read some more reviews by using google, found this thread, and got pissed off by mistake, as it seems. Sorry about it. It just kind of hurt me to think someone badmouthing astro. sorry again.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,032
5,923
borcester rhymes
au contraire....i've had my eye on one for a while. The old ones apparently did suck, but the new ones are pretty capable frames. I think a lot of people are afraid that somebody with the appropriate manufacturing power will churn these frames out at a low price and put competitors who build the same frames and charge 3x as much will go out of business.