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Facing....or No Facing

Oct 14, 2007
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Now I had a convo with Dirty Mike a while back concerning this, and I wanted to address the topic at hand and get different perspectives. I thought that most frames were already faced properly when arrived, but Mike wasn't of the same opinion.

1- If there are no visual PC leftovers on the frame, should the frame still be faced?

2- Once a frame is faced we should we have to do it again>?

3- a) I would think that if you change headsets, then you might have to ream a frame more than once? how does this affect the frame?

b) Does anyone ream the frame like indicated by park depending on the cup size>>>>>>http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=65

4) In what cases should the BB be faced/reamed?

- For those who are adamant about facing:

A1. Say I buy a new bike, completely built, Should the BB and Head Set still be faced? or should this procedure be only done when installing a new HeadSet or BB

A2- Although Park is the most popular brand in North-America, has anyone had ANY experience with anything else>? good/bad? anything to avoid?

A3-What cutting fluid do you prefer?

A4-Last, How much should a BB or HeadSet ream or face or ream/face should cost....separate and together?

http://ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207129&page=3&highlight=facing
 

Zark

Hey little girl, do you want some candy?
Oct 18, 2001
6,254
7
Reno 911
If the BB or headtube still has paint on it, face it. Bearings need a flush surface to spin freely and not bind. I've always used Park cutting tools for these applications along with Park cutting fluuid.

If you are installing a new headset on a frame thats already faced, you don't need to face it again.

Facing frames is "touchy" work where you can screw up the frame, cutting tool or both by doing it wrong. Cutting tools are expensive and shops charge accordingly. Expect $30-35 per surface.
 

- seb

Turbo Monkey
Apr 10, 2002
2,924
1
UK
I've never reamed or faced anything and have never had a problem. My GFs hardtail frame needed to be faced on the BB though as there was a blob of weld on the ISCG mount that would have interfered with an external BB.

I think everyone worries too much :) If it looks flat and clean, it probably is. If it's got paint on it, or something else like my scenario, then yeah, do it.
 

Stray_cat

Monkey
Nov 13, 2007
460
0
Providence
I've owned a few handbuilt frames that I've had to face, and chase threads (Ibis/Sinister). I don't consider it a big deal, and in general do it on all of my bikes. I find with I'm able to get a better preload on the headset. Chasing the BB threads will put less stress on the threads when you put the bottom bracket in. My poor Ibis has seen alot of use/parts over the years, and I had to re-chase the BB, not ideal but at that point when your threads are developing stress fractures you really don't have any other option(just use lots and lots of cutting oil). I guess I can't think of a reason to re-face headtube, but maybe somebody else has a thought on that.
 
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buildyourown

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2004
4,832
0
South Seattle
Now I had a convo with Dirty Mike a while back concerning this, and I wanted to address the topic at hand and get different perspectives. I thought that most frames were already faced properly when arrived, but Mike wasn't of the same opinion.

1- If there are no visual PC leftovers on the frame, should the frame still be faced?
Not necessarily. Really, you only need to face/chase after welding and/or heat treating. If you have just done a repaint, simply removing the paint or PC with a knife will be just fine. Just be thorough, and try not to remove any metal.

2- Once a frame is faced we should we have to do it again>?
Not unless it is welded on.

3- a) I would think that if you change headsets, then you might have to ream a frame more than once? how does this affect the frame?
If you use the same sharp cutter, it shouldn't affect dia, but you are removing material on the face every time. It's probably negligible though.

b) Does anyone ream the frame like indicated by park depending on the cup size>>>>>>http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=65
That's a little bit of BS by Park. You can't get a accurate ID or OD measurement with calipers. Using a bit of retaining compound on a sloppy cup isn't the dumbest idea but going and buying a new headset is.

4) In what cases should the BB be faced/reamed?
When the bike is new. When you have a creaky headset/BB. After any welding to the area, ie frame repair.


- For those who are adamant about facing:

A1. Say I buy a new bike, completely built, Should the BB and Head Set still be faced? or should this procedure be only done when installing a new HeadSet or BB
A bit overkill but 99% of new bikes don't get the headtube faced. If it was a nice bike and you were feeling especially OCD, then yes.

A2- Although Park is the most popular brand in North-America, has anyone had ANY experience with anything else>? good/bad? anything to avoid?
I've used cutters by Campy, VAR, Bringheli and a few others. They are nicer but MUCH more expensive. I've got a Cyclus at home. It's sufficient for a home mech and gets the job done.

A3-What cutting fluid do you prefer?
Some thing designed for cutting and tapping. NOT WD-40. Tap magic is decent and readily available. Balax is the best stuff I've used but it's messy and hard to find. Jokisch is great stuff too, but again, hard to find.

A4-Last, How much should a BB or HeadSet ream or face or ream/face should cost....separate and together?
They are expensive. www.biketoolsetc.com has the best prices I've seen, including BTI and QBP. Headtube reamers show up on ebay for about $100 but the BB sets are very rare.
 
Oct 14, 2007
394
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I've used cutters by Campy, VAR, Bringheli and a few others. They are nicer but MUCH more expensive. I've got a Cyclus at home. It's sufficient for a home mech and gets the job done.
if you were allowed to get which ever, no price restrictions what would you take as a BB reamer/facer and Headtube facer/reamer?
 

buildyourown

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2004
4,832
0
South Seattle
if you were allowed to get which ever, no price restrictions what would you take as a BB reamer/facer and Headtube facer/reamer?
Probably campy. It's hard to find though.
If I ever ball up and buy a BB set, it will be a Park. They are by far the most popular so you know you'll always be able to get parts.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
I've never reamed or faced anything and have never had a problem. My GFs hardtail frame needed to be faced on the BB though as there was a blob of weld on the ISCG mount that would have interfered with an external BB.

I think everyone worries too much :) If it looks flat and clean, it probably is. If it's got paint on it, or something else like my scenario, then yeah, do it.
When you make a comment like this, you should mention how many frames you have owned and/or worked on.

I have probably dealt with 100 frames from steel lugged to carbon monocoque. I rarely face headtubes unless there is paint.

Bottom brackets I have chased maybe 10% of new frames. Usually custom steel builders will do it for you but overseas aluminum frames require chasing frequently. I have never needed a ti frame chased (I would send it back to the manufacturer) or a carbon (throw it away).

There my simple rule is to grease it up and screw it in by hand. If I can get it most of the way, it doesn't need to be chased. If I can get only a few threads in, then get the Park tool.
 
Oct 14, 2007
394
0
chasing is not so much an issue....is it safe to say that the rule is that we can't face or ream a cf heatube or bb?
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
chasing is not so much an issue....is it safe to say that the rule is that we can't face or ream a cf heatube or bb?
Carbon fiber cuts real easy!

I suppose you could face the metal inserts (I believe usually aluminum) for the headset and the BB. But these inserts are machined beforehand, and should be of high enough quality right from the start. And if the alignment is off, which could be for a headtube, then you definitely want to send that frame back.
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
1,017
My own world inside my head
Carbon bikes should all be faced and ready, weather it has an insert or not..

Quick answer, once ints done, your done. You shouldnt need to reface/ream/chase unless you weld/repair/heatreat. The only time I ream the headtube more than once is if I am going to be installing a deep cup headset, in which case you have to, because most frames are not reamed for a deep cup.

I remember the conversation we had before about facing and reaming. Certain crank systems its prety critical to get the BB to last as long as it should. I am pretty anal about making sure I face my frames when I initially assemble them. But after that it shouldnt go out, if it does, something else also had a major failure too.

Mainly I just dont trust what comes in a box that has been mass produced. Way I figure, check it once build it once.

As far as tools, I have used both Campy, and Park. I like the campy, but If I were to buy my own, Just like Buildyourown, I would go for the park, parts are easy to come by.


Park oil is what I normall use
 
Oct 14, 2007
394
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Quick answer, once ints done, your done. You shouldnt need to reface/ream/chase unless you weld/repair/heatreat.
so basically the park thing is bull, meaning that if you ream your head tube once to fit a certain headset, then change headsets you SHOULD NOT be re-reaming it...unlike park who are telling you to do so due to headset tolerance differences
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
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My own world inside my head
so basically the park thing is bull, meaning that if you ream your head tube once to fit a certain headset, then change headsets you SHOULD NOT be re-reaming it...unlike park who are telling you to do so due to headset tolerance differences
Yeah I think so. Like I said the only time I will re-ream a headtube, is if I am swapping to a deep cup headset, mainly because I canno think of a frame taht uses a deepcup headset factory.
 

djamgils

Monkey
Aug 31, 2007
349
0
Holland
how much deviation in flatness of the head tube top surface are we talking about that is considered bad?
Because could a deviation in paint thickness cause a 20mm deep cilinder to be pushed out of allignment?
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
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how much deviation in flatness of the head tube top surface are we talking about that is considered bad?
Because could a deviation in paint thickness cause a 20mm deep cilinder to be pushed out of allignment?
I am less worried about alignment with paint on the head tubes. As it has been discussed here manyy times, thre is a certain leway you have with the bearings were they are not going to be damaged. Check out the Offset 1.5 reducers thread about that, DaveP had a good responce to that.

I am anal about facing headtubes for a different reason, The final last little bit you push your headset cup in. If it gets tweaked to the side, your setting yourself up with a higher chance of ovalizing your headtube. Is that an issue on a DH frame, Probably not, but these lightweight roadie frames and XC frames I end up building alot of, it sure is. Thats where I started facing in the first place. It just followed me into the DH world, seeing how It worked really well in the other, I just keep doing it.


Take in mind though, I dont just blindly face bikes, I check the overall specs for BB width, and headtube length to make sure for one, its able to be faced, and two, I dont ruin a frame.
 

buildyourown

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2004
4,832
0
South Seattle
how much deviation in flatness of the head tube top surface are we talking about that is considered bad?
Because could a deviation in paint thickness cause a 20mm deep cilinder to be pushed out of allignment?
Yes actually. When a frame is welded, the headtube gets bowed. It doesn't matter how good your weld sequence is. All the welding in on one side of the tube and there will be some distortion. This leaves the faces of the headtube nonparallel. Facing gets them back to parallel.


curious george said:
thought all Head Tubes could be faced regardless of their predisposed length
They can. Unless you have a silly small amount of extension on the bottom and you plan on taking off multiply millimeters of material. You should really only be taking off .020-.030" max, usually less.

BB don't really matter either. The blanks usually come .5-1.0mm long and you usually don't need that much to clean them up. That means most new frames are a bit over even after they have been faced. If a BB shell is undersized, it's not really going to affect how the bearings install.
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
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My own world inside my head
I will argue a bit on teh BB's. Too wide, too narrow, both are bad. And not to pick on the Howitzer system, but that one is particular is pretty sensitive. too wide, and it doesnt spin properly, too narrow, and the bearings dont sit in there cups right. Not an issue with other systems like shimano or raceface. Shims are available for a reason, but at the same time, I know there is also a certain Leway that can be had with any system.
 
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Oct 14, 2007
394
0
Noticed something very particular. On the park site, when facing the BB, it clearly states "DO NOT rotate facer counter-clockwise, this may dull the facer teeth."
Yet I watched this video on how to use the cyclus cutter, and the guy is going Counter-Clock on the drive side. Unless the Cyclus reamer teeth are inverted I don't see why. ** He starts reaming towards the end after the click on the button

well here is the video:

http://ra-co.de/fileadmin/cyclus-tools/Filme/720149_Schneidfraeswerkzeug.mpg

park instructions:http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=97
 
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DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
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The teeth on the Cyclus are meant to be turned that direction. theres has a cutter for each side

Watch the video, then look at the park tools version, you will see that the park is meant to be used on one side, than the other, always in a clockwize direction. But you will also notice that the cutter on teh cyclus<drive side> and the park the teeth are the exact opposite
 
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Jonny5

Monkey
Feb 13, 2007
502
0
I've just ordered the ice toolz gear for home use. Good prices and should handle the work at home. I've had a few frames recently that I have wanted to build at home and ended up sitting there with a thread file trying to clean the paint out. It isn't fun.
 
Oct 14, 2007
394
0
Last question: After reading the park site, with no real indication as to how to do this. Say your is measured at 68.7 instead of 68.0 How would you go about facing it?
I know your supposed to always work via the drive side when reducing it, but would you go half half on both sides? or just take off a whole 0.7 on the right?
 

buildyourown

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2004
4,832
0
South Seattle
You're over thinking this. The important part is that the faces are clean and parrallel and square to the bore. The overall dimension isn't that critical. .7mm in chainline REALLY isn't going to affect anything.
I can't speak for the Howitzer, but on every other system I can think of, the shell width could be off several mm and it wouldn't hurt a thing.
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
1,017
My own world inside my head
Mike, any ideas?
BYO said it already, .7 os a pretty slim amount to fret over, I normally though, would take some from both side, specially when dealing with outboard style cranks. So that would be .35 from each side, a very little at a time. But that is also assuming the BB shell is properly centered on the frame to begin with. Not an easy check, but any good frame "should" be centered already when you get it.
 

mandown

Poopdeck Repost
Jun 1, 2004
20,126
7,674
Transylvania 90210
bringing this back up from the grave.

i've got a new steel hard tail frame (On-One 456 Summer Season) and i'm probably going to use my pre-Vendetta Deity cranks on it. i was wondering if it would be better to leave the BB un-faced so the steel of the frame has less exposed area and is less likely to rust. i'm considering going to outboard bearing cranks on the frame later if the 170 crank length turns out to be too short and i need something a bit longer than the Deity's. should i wait until that time and just leave the paint on for now for rust protection, or just face it right from the get-go?
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
1,017
My own world inside my head
Well.....I would always face a BB when using outboard bearing style cranks. Stopping it from rusting is easy though, Face it, clean it well, and put a thin layer of grease over it right away. I mean you should be putting some grease on your BB Shell threads as it is anyways. So rust wont be an issue
 

mandown

Poopdeck Repost
Jun 1, 2004
20,126
7,674
Transylvania 90210
makes sense. i'll probably take it in to be faced today and i'll have them do the BB and head tube. not sure when or if i will go to outboards, but it could happen.
 
Oct 14, 2007
394
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by the way, whats the issue with using compressed air to clean out the burrs inside the BB shell? I wouldn't see how this can be an issue
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
1,116
NORCAL is the hizzle
If you are installing a new headset on a frame thats already faced, you don't need to face it again.
I know this is an old post, but never say never: A few weeks ago I broke a headset cup out in woods miles away from anywhere, and had no real choice but to ride out. The headtube got mangled and needed to be faced again. I generally agree with what you're saying but damage is an exception.
 

Polhill

Chimp
Feb 8, 2008
10
0
Face, Chase, whatever. One of the main things is that the head tube have a proper lead in chamfer. All headset cups have a tiny radius at the corner where the sleeve and the cup meet. If the frame isn't prep'd to allow for this you can crack cups, esp. King cups. This is acchieved easily with a common de-burring tool.
I find this to be the most overlooked aspect of prepping a frame.
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
1,017
My own world inside my head
by the way, whats the issue with using compressed air to clean out the burrs inside the BB shell? I wouldn't see how this can be an issue
it could get in your eyes.

other than that, there isnt a issue. just make sure you thoroughly clean the shell out w/ cleaner
Thats actually 99% of it. the other reason, is getting it into the tubing on the frame, and having it end up in the threads next tiem you remove your BB. good way to ruin your BB shell.
 

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
Thats actually 99% of it. the other reason, is getting it into the tubing on the frame, and having it end up in the threads next tiem you remove your BB. good way to ruin your BB shell.
true. its easier to get all the burrs if you just use a cleaner w/ a rag, instead of getting the metal shavings everywhere.
 
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