The MBA Prop 8 Debacle

cadmus said:

This thread wasn't started in order to spark a discussion on whether you agree with Prop 8 or not, it was started as an attack on MBA because the owner made a donation to one side of the issue. He didn't make that donation in the name of MBA, or in the names of its employees or the names of its subscribers. He did it in his own name, with his own money and did not claim to speak for anyone else.

Interesting that the owner of RM would say this site has a stance, thus claiming he speaks for every member here. It's obvious that not everyone here is on the same side of the argument, but the owner is using his position to make that assertion.

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I brought this issue up originally because I didn't know that a magazine I purchase is owned by a guy who supports Prop 8.

I didn't recommend to the mods to suspend any RMers who hates gays or are going to continue to buy MBA. I just wanted others to know what the deal is.

I don't think it is very hard to make a connection between a guy who donates money to a cause many Californians disagree with, and the business he owns.

Roland Hinz and I can disagree respectfully on this matter, but I don't see how I can support his business if he is going to put his cash into issues which negatively affect me and my family.

I applause DirtyDog for taking a stance, considering it could lose him business. But I think the bottom line is this: supporting gay marriage is the right thing to do, so ultimately, Ridemonkey will benefit from this.

cadmus said:

Not sure how else to interpret the "we" in the original post. Just like the mormons referenced earlier. When the organization endorses something, they speak on behalf of all of their members. It wouldn't carry as much weight to do so otherwise.

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You're free to take your business elsewhere at anytime if you do not agree.

chicodude said:

I will admit, I could come off nicer, But the fact anyone would oppose rights for other people, even if its a right so small as marriage, it makes me mad. Plus what I say will always seem pretty harsh because its about 180 degrees from what you believe.




I was saying the only state gay marriage needs to be legal and recognized in is the state you live in. Its not a big deal if 48 states don't recognize it if the state you live in does. get my point.

Also, I still think you should lay off teh booze because reading your last post makes my head hurt from all the typos. I see your response this morning was a lot more legible

PS I have a big problem with people taking kids out of class because of something the kid is being taught. Let the kids learn what they need to learn and let them make up their own minds.

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Its not that your 180 off from what I believe,
In fact, even as a christian, after I read through Prop 8, not going off media hype or anytihng like that, I couldnt vote yes for it. I do actually read through the prop's before voting, because what is written in the law, is rarely whats presented by the media and fanatics out on the street.
By the way, I wasnt drinking, at all as a matter of fact, I was just typing on the laptop, but as I underlined your not exactly mister perfect on the typo's either.

As far as taking the kids out of class, I get what you think, a little bit.

Lets put it into perspective a bit, Hypo situation and all. You have a 7 year old daughter, and her teachter wants to teach the class about homosexuality, and marriage ETC. Are you going to be ok with that topic being taught at that age? I am not, and I would take my child out of class, and as a parent that should be my right, and there grades should not suffer. That an innapropriate topic at that age, and, quite honestly, is a parent right to decide when is appropriate for the children to learn about. Its not just that topic, there are many topics at that age that shouldnt be taught in a public school that parent should have a right to decide on.

DirtyMike said:

...Lets put it into perspective a bit, Hypo situation and all. You have a 7 year old daughter, and her teachter wants to teach the class about homosexuality, and marriage ETC. Are you going to be ok with that topic being taught at that age? I am not, and I would take my child out of class, and as a parent that should be my right, and there grades should not suffer. That an innapropriate topic at that age, and, quite honestly, is a parent right to decide when is appropriate for the children to learn about. Its not just that topic, there are many topics at that age that shouldnt be taught in a public school that parent should have a right to decide on.

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I do not agree. There would be quite a few that would withdraw their children because, let's say, they were taught about evolution. I think that a good parent, rather than "protecting" their children from ideas, should be teaching them to listen, observe, reflect and make their own decisions. Pulling children out of school is encouraging ignorance.

johnbryanpeters said:

I do not agree. There would be quite a few that would withdraw their children because, let's say, they were taught about evolution. I think that a good parent, rather than "protecting" their children from ideas, should be teaching them to listen, observe, reflect and make their own decisions. Pulling children out of school is encouraging ignorance.

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How young would you like your daughter learning about sex?

DirtyMike said:

Lets put it into perspective a bit, Hypo situation and all. You have a 7 year old daughter, and her teachter wants to teach the class about homosexuality, and marriage ETC. Are you going to be ok with that topic being taught at that age? I am not, and I would take my child out of class, and as a parent that should be my right, and there grades should not suffer.

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I think it's appalling that you believe it's not appropriate for children to have it explained that two adults of the same gender can love each other. No, the sex part shouldn't be explained. But if it's okay to teach them about regular relationships, it's okay to teach them about gay relationships. There's no goddamn difference between them.

Why can't you guys see that? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. NONE. If it wasn't treated like such a taboo, it wouldn't be a taboo topic. Kids aren't born prejudiced, they're raised that way. If they're raised to see that some boys like girls, some boys like boys, and some girls like girls, then it ceases to become "weird" - it's all just normal. It's all just relationships.

I'm staying out of these Prop 8 threads. I can't even friggin' begin to relate to these retarded arguments. I feel like having a bomberz1qr9468-esque meltdown, like when GWB was elected to a second term. In no uncertain terms: I feel that anyone who supports Prop 8 is an ignorant bigot. I feel that anyone who takes a contrary position to those seeking to strike down Prop 8 is a bigot.

That's the last I'm going to say on the subject - for me, there is no argument or discussion, because anything contrary to a minority deserving a basic equal right of the majority is simply wrong. It's wrong and it's prejudiced.

binary visions said:

I think it's appalling that you believe it's not appropriate for children to have it explained that two adults of the same gender can love each other. No, the sex part shouldn't be explained. But if it's okay to teach them about regular relationships, it's okay to teach them about gay relationships. There's no goddamn difference between them.

Why can't you guys see that? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. NONE. If it wasn't treated like such a taboo, it wouldn't be a taboo topic. Kids aren't born prejudiced, they're raised that way. If they're raised to see that some boys like girls, some boys like boys, and some girls like girls, then it ceases to become "weird" - it's all just normal. It's all just relationships.

I'm staying out of these Prop 8 threads. I can't even friggin' begin to relate to these retarded arguments. I feel like having a bomberz1qr9468-esque meltdown, like when GWB was elected to a second term. In no uncertain terms: I feel that anyone who supports Prop 8 is an ignorant bigot. I feel that anyone who takes a contrary position to those seeking to strike down Prop 8 is a bigot.

That's the last I'm going to say on the subject - for me, there is no argument or discussion, because anything contrary to a minority deserving a basic equal right of the majority is simply wrong. It's wrong and it's prejudiced.

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Slow down there tiger, if you read everything I wrote, I didnt say that they shouldnt be taught about it, I said it doesnt belong in gradeschool, I have no problem whatsoever explaining and teaching t these situations to my own child, I will do it, when my child is ready, NOT FRIGGIN KIDNERGARTEN as some of the links here have listed.


Some kids, early is bette, some, later is better........ It shouldnt be part of a teaching ciriculum<SP> at such a young age.


Do I think people should be tolerant of others...YES
Do I think parents should be teaching there kids and being involved with them...YES


I just listed differnt topics that happen to be of conflict in todays schools, I would want my kids to learn everything they can, but when there minds are ready for it. And NO I DONT F*CKING SUPPORT TEACHING OF HATE OR DISCRIMINATION.
But I do support a parents rights.

DirtyMike said:

Its not that your 180 off from what I believe,
In fact, even as a christian, after I read through Prop 8, not going off media hype or anytihng like that, I couldnt vote yes for it. I do actually read through the prop's before voting, because what is written in the law, is rarely whats presented by the media and fanatics out on the street.
By the way, I wasnt drinking, at all as a matter of fact, I was just typing on the laptop, but as I underlined your not exactly mister perfect on the typo's either.

As far as taking the kids out of class, I get what you think, a little bit.

Lets put it into perspective a bit, Hypo situation and all. You have a 7 year old daughter, and her teachter wants to teach the class about homosexuality, and marriage ETC. Are you going to be ok with that topic being taught at that age? I am not, and I would take my child out of class, and as a parent that should be my right, and there grades should not suffer. That an innapropriate topic at that age, and, quite honestly, is a parent right to decide when is appropriate for the children to learn about. Its not just that topic, there are many topics at that age that shouldnt be taught in a public school that parent should have a right to decide on.

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I put Teh (Yes, teh teh teh teh teh) Because:

a)Its teh intraweb.
b)It makes me LOL
c)Satire my good friend.

Like BV said, Its only an issue because you make it an issue. Kids are born as a blank slate so to speak, and it's culture (ie you telling her its wrong) That forms those thought in her head.

I am also with the singular eyebrowed guy when I say i can't stand people trying to defend this bigotry, plain and simple. I like a good argument as much as the next guy, but this is mother****ing ridiculous.

Slow down there tiger, if you read everything I wrote, I didnt say that they shouldnt be taught about it, I said it doesnt belong in gradeschool, I have no problem whatsoever explaining and teaching t these situations to my own child, I will do it, when my child is ready, NOT FRIGGIN KIDNERGARTEN as some of the links here have listed.

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Just curious, when your kid is in kindergarten, and some innocent child has "two mommies" or "two daddies", what are you tell them? That's not curriculum based, that's real life based.

geargrrl said:

Just curious, when your kid is in kindergarten, and some innocent child has "two mommies" or "two daddies", what are you tell them? That's not curriculum based, that's real life based.

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x2. My 5yo son has a classmate whose parents are lesbians.
When asked why there was no dad, and it was a direct question relating to how two females could have a child, we simply stated that the girl was adopted by two women who love each other.

There was no PC glorification or long winded explanation, just a statement of fact followed by "do you want ketchup on your hamburger?"

The magic of young kids is that they are blank slates, free of the BS adults hamstring their lives with. My sons don't think twice when they see gay couples, other races or the handicapped (the lesbians daughter is mentally disabled, wheelchair-bound and of a different race than her parents). They notice differences, and ask about them, but are judgement-free.

DirtyMike said:

How young would you like your daughter learning about sex?

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When she asks the first question, or exhibits the first behavior.

You don't start with university level stuff, but you don't avoid the issue either unless you want to be setting a young person up to fvck the fools later in life.

binary visions said:

In no uncertain terms: I feel that anyone who supports Prop 8 is an ignorant bigot. I feel that anyone who takes a contrary position to those seeking to strike down Prop 8 is a bigot.

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The argument from tradition is veiled bigotry too. And DirtyMike, I strongly believe kids should know that gay people exist. Not letting that be taught in schools is essentially suppressing the idea that there are gay people in the world and that those people are normal and accepted. That's not the same as teaching gay (or any kind) of sex at 7, which doesn't happen anyway. But saying you don't want your kid taught that some men love men and women women is showing that you find something wrong with being gay.

I wonder if Prop 8 would have passed without the fear that kids would be taught about gay sex in kindergarten?

DirtyMike said:

Its not that your 180 off from what I believe,
In fact, even as a christian, after I read through Prop 8, not going off media hype or anytihng like that, I couldnt vote yes for it. I do actually read through the prop's before voting, because what is written in the law, is rarely whats presented by the media and fanatics out on the street.
By the way, I wasnt drinking, at all as a matter of fact, I was just typing on the laptop, but as I underlined your not exactly mister perfect on the typo's either.

As far as taking the kids out of class, I get what you think, a little bit.

Lets put it into perspective a bit, Hypo situation and all. You have a 7 year old daughter, and her teachter wants to teach the class about homosexuality, and marriage ETC. Are you going to be ok with that topic being taught at that age? I am not, and I would take my child out of class, and as a parent that should be my right, and there grades should not suffer. That an innapropriate topic at that age, and, quite honestly, is a parent right to decide when is appropriate for the children to learn about. Its not just that topic, there are many topics at that age that shouldnt be taught in a public school that parent should have a right to decide on.

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First of all, I respect your opinion and you should be allowed to teach your child what you think is appropriate, including taking him/her out of school if homosexuality is the subject.

I should point out that my sister, who is gay, has two children. There is no radical liberal agenda being indoctrinated into the family. It is all about the diapers, taking 2 more bites of dinner, and bedtime.

My sister is friendly with several families, straight and gay, and the get-togethers seems perfectly normal to me.

Conversely, I have thought about when my sister's kids, who I suspect will be athletic, start traveling around the US, especially when the parents or I are not around. They will meet kids who have been taught that having two mommies is a sin, that San Francisco values are a threat to America, that being gay is akin to being a terrorist. Even if I am being pessimistic, I know many people are not open-minded towards gays and that will affect their children.

I think about the crap two little kids will have to deal with because they are in a loving family with two gay parents, it makes me very upset.

I do not know what will be taught to little children about homosexuality and marriage. I hope it is that gay families and exist and that is a good thing.

geargrrl said:

Just curious, when your kid is in kindergarten, and some innocent child has "two mommies" or "two daddies", what are you tell them? That's not curriculum based, that's real life based.

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That is when we will have the discussion and it will be explained my way, at the level I feel appropriate for my children. As I feel all parents should do as well.

black noise said:

The argument from tradition is veiled bigotry too. And DirtyMike, I strongly believe kids should know that gay people exist. Not letting that be taught in schools is essentially suppressing the idea that there are gay people in the world and that those people are normal and accepted. That's not the same as teaching gay (or any kind) of sex at 7, which doesn't happen anyway. But saying you don't want your kid taught that some men love men and women women is showing that you find something wrong with being gay.

I wonder if Prop 8 would have passed without the fear that kids would be taught about gay sex in kindergarten?

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Unfortunatly, I still feel it would have gone the same way, there is still just too much of a religous backing as well.

About children knowing about Homos exuality, I agree, you sholdnt be sheltering, and I know your young too, What you need to know, is I am not advocating not teaching them, I am saying its not for schools to be teaching it, parents should be, when there children are ready.

sanjuro said:

First of all, I respect your opinion and you should be allowed to teach your child what you think is appropriate, including taking him/her out of school if homosexuality is the subject.

I should point out that my sister, who is gay, has two children. There is no radical liberal agenda being indoctrinated into the family. It is all about the diapers, taking 2 more bites of dinner, and bedtime.

My sister is friendly with several families, straight and gay, and the get-togethers seems perfectly normal to me.

Conversely, I have thought about when my sister's kids, who I suspect will be athletic, start traveling around the US, especially when the parents or I are not around. They will meet kids who have been taught that having two mommies is a sin, that San Francisco values are a threat to America, that being gay is akin to being a terrorist. Even if I am being pessimistic, I know many people are not open-minded towards gays and that will affect their children.

I think about the crap two little kids will have to deal with because they are in a loving family with two gay parents, it makes me very upset.

I do not know what will be taught to little children about homosexuality and marriage. I hope it is that gay families and exist and that is a good thing.

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You and I are alot on the same page, there are probably a couple things we will stilr differ on, as anyone would. I can forsee what your saying about what will happen when the children travel on there own, and its a shame. Hopefully by that time people will have a clearer mind about it. I have a few family Members that are gay, I have mroe than a few friends that are. I harbor no Ill will towards any of them. Oh, its not that I want to take them out because there teaching about homosexuality, its I want to be able to take them out If I feel there not ready for it, something I want to be able to prepare them for myself when there ready.




To clear a little more up, If Prop 8 was about parents rights, I wouldnt have had a problem, but it wasnt just that. From the time it was started it spiraled further and further away from what it was intended. Like I stated earlier, Maybe I should have been more carefull about my owrding to begin with, I had mixed feelings about it to begin with, So I researched it, and saw it for what it was.

bump ...

I don't know if this list is old news, I just heard the story.
Story on CNN, apparently the list of financial supporters to Prop 8 is searchable on teh intranets.

http://www.tips-q.com/files/Prop8_supporters.pdf

Is this fair? Discuss.

It's nothing new. IIRC, twenty years ago they came out with some lists on who were donors to Right to Life, Domino's pizza was one of the largest one, I haven't bought a pizza from them since then.

I assume the information is in the public record. Voting with your checkbook is nothing new in the US.

Nick said:

bump ...

I don't know if this list is old news, I just heard the story.
Story on CNN, apparently the list of financial supporters to Prop 8 is searchable on teh intranets.

http://www.tips-q.com/files/Prop8_supporters.pdf

Is this fair? Discuss.

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Of course it's fair. The financial supporters of all such bills are available to the general public as a matter of transparency.

About a month ago I heard that the Yes on 8 groups were trying to get the courts to seal the donor lists because a lot of the donors were afraid of reprisal, economic or otherwise. From what the article indicated very few of these type cases win.

well there you go then ... I guess I didn't realize that.

Moral of this story is, if you don't want to lost client base based on your politics, don't donate money in the company name.

geargrrl said:

...Domino's pizza was one of the largest one, I haven't bought a pizza from them since then.

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That's what is keeping you from eating Domino's? I figured it'd be because the pizza is shyte.

Upgr8r said:

About a month ago I heard that the Yes on 8 groups were trying to get the courts to seal the donor lists because a lot of the donors were afraid of reprisal, economic or otherwise. From what the article indicated very few of these type cases win.

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They will fail.

It's called the freedom of information act - allows citizens to get any public info they want. It is used HEAVILY by the media and Private Investigators.

We were robbed in Nov an they just recovered some of our items. Detective was being very evasive of where - so we submitted a request for all the information regarding our case.

Going over to the Pawn shop (who's address and phone number were in the file) in about 50min...

geargrrl said:

Moral of this story is, if you don't want to lost client base based on your politics, don't donate money in the company name.

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I think the real moral of the story is don't mix your politics with your business.

geargrrl said:

Moral of this story is, if you don't want to lost client base based on your politics, don't donate money in the company name.

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Transcend said:

I think the real moral of the story is don't mix your politics with your business.

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It's not just businesses, but individuals as well. It all comes down to the fact that these individuals & businesses don't want to be held accountable (in this case being put at risk of negative repurcussions) for their financial support of discriminatory legislation.

I think how this plays out for the Mormon Church is going to very interesting. I see that they spent almost 200k on Prop 8, including paying their employees for working on Prop 8.

None of which bothers me, but if they plan on becoming a political organization, they should lose their tax-free status.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/31/BA7615KLB9.DTL&hw=mormon&sn=004&sc=768

jonKranked said:

It's not just businesses, but individuals as well. It all comes down to the fact that these individuals & businesses don't want to be held accountable (in this case being put at risk of negative repurcussions) for their financial support of discriminatory legislation.

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I don't know, I'm torn. Any time you contribute money personally (over $100?) you still have to list your employer, and that information is freely available on the web. Hell, on opensecrets.org you can search by company name to see who from that company donated to which campaign. Does it matter that employees at a company donated to one campaign or another? Is it 'worse' when the CEO/owner of a company does it (in his/her own name)? At what point do you separate the individual from the company he or she represents?

I just don't want this to turn into a witch-hunt, where you can only donate your personal money to politically correct causes out of fear of retribution against your employment. There's still freedom of speech in this country, and personal lives (and money) should be kept separate from your professional lives.

At the same time, it's also understandable to not want your money to go to businesses that support causes that you don't agree with, and to a certain extent the owner of the business is a reflection of the business itself. So like I said, I'm torn on this issue.

sanjuro said:

None of which bothers me, but if they plan on becoming a political organization, they should lose their tax-free status.

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If? They run an entire state. That horse has long left the barn...

sanjuro said:

I think how this plays out for the Mormon Church is going to very interesting. I see that they spent almost 200k on Prop 8, including paying their employees for working on Prop 8.

None of which bothers me, but if they plan on becoming a political organization, they should lose their tax-free status.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/31/BA7615KLB9.DTL&hw=mormon&sn=004&sc=768

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DING DING DING.

Precisely. Any church group working as a political organizing committee needs to lose their tax exempt status.

dante said:

I don't know, I'm torn. Any time you contribute money personally (over $100?) you still have to list your employer, and that information is freely available on the web. Hell, on opensecrets.org you can search by company name to see who from that company donated to which campaign. Does it matter that employees at a company donated to one campaign or another? Is it 'worse' when the CEO/owner of a company does it (in his/her own name)? At what point do you separate the individual from the company he or she represents?

I just don't want this to turn into a witch-hunt, where you can only donate your personal money to politically correct causes out of fear of retribution against your employment. There's still freedom of speech in this country, and personal lives (and money) should be kept separate from your professional lives.

At the same time, it's also understandable to not want your money to go to businesses that support causes that you don't agree with, and to a certain extent the owner of the business is a reflection of the business itself. So like I said, I'm torn on this issue.

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You bring up a good point. But what's stopping from someone from writing down a completely made up business name? or from saying they work for a company they don't like?

dante said:

I don't know, I'm torn. Any time you contribute money personally (over $100?) you still have to list your employer, and that information is freely available on the web. Hell, on opensecrets.org you can search by company name to see who from that company donated to which campaign. Does it matter that employees at a company donated to one campaign or another? Is it 'worse' when the CEO/owner of a company does it (in his/her own name)? At what point do you separate the individual from the company he or she represents?

I just don't want this to turn into a witch-hunt, where you can only donate your personal money to politically correct causes out of fear of retribution against your employment. There's still freedom of speech in this country, and personal lives (and money) should be kept separate from your professional lives.

At the same time, it's also understandable to not want your money to go to businesses that support causes that you don't agree with, and to a certain extent the owner of the business is a reflection of the business itself. So like I said, I'm torn on this issue.

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It's called accountability and transparency. I'm not sure why you have to list your business (probably tax reasons), but you should definitely have to list your name in my opinion.

Transcend said:

It's called accountability and transparency. I'm not sure why you have to list your business (probably tax reasons), but you should definitely have to list your name in my opinion.

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Haven't you heard? We don't have this thing called "accountability" here in the states. At least not in most places where it matters.