Frame Builder(Designer) Education level?

jonKranked · Jan 4, 2009

If you're in college, pick something that you will enjoy doing that also pays well. Chances are, when you graduate you're gonna have a decent amount of debt. Frame building isn't gonna pay that off. Also, it takes a long time to build up a reputation as a good frame builder, to the point you'd be able to make a decent living off of it (at least from what I've been told by other frame builders).

I hate to have to say it, but its the truth.

LMC · Jan 4, 2009

yes mechanical engineering, not only will you be able to make a frame as your project with alot of support and equipment at your disposal. but it will give you useful qualifications when you come to get a job at the end..

as Jonkranked says frame designing/building isnt gona pay the bills straight away.

jonKranked · Jan 4, 2009

LMC said:
yes mechanical engineering, not only will you be able to make a frame as your project with alot of support and equipment at your disposal. but it will give you useful qualifications when you come to get a job at the end..

as Jonkranked says frame designing/building isnt gona pay the bills straight away.

also, don't let what I said discourage you. Just trying to be realistic.

And yes, mechanical engineering would give you the most applicable skills.

ska todd · Jan 4, 2009

Get learned on the bigger points of international business, sales & marketing, contract & patent law, and sprinkle that with some engineering & design and you'll be primed to work in the bike biz. Learning Chinese would put you a further leg up. However, don't expect to get rich working with bikes. You can probably work in other sectors and make enough coin to buy bikes at retail and get enough time off work to actually ride them.

-ska todd

LMC · Jan 4, 2009

Todd.

Do the chinese manufacturers generally not have a good standard of english? learning chinese seems like a huge undertaking, especially since i presume engineering terms would be at the more advanced stage of learning chinese.

also out of curiosity what measures are generally taken to ensure quality, so for example you dont order 100 frames and recieve 70 bent frames after you have paid for them?

ska todd · Jan 4, 2009

Oh, no for sure almost all of the major bike suppliers have EXCELLENT understanding of English (better than most any western companies speak Chinese!) and you always also have a trading agent and/or native speaking staff on the ground to assist in day-to-day operations.

However, personally having some working knowledge of Mandarin would be a big asset in willing hearts-and-minds and getting things rolling faster. Most universities have a language requirement of some sorts. Instead of blowing it on French or Spanish, pick up some Chinese if you want to work in the bike industry. Unless you are going to be in sales (where Spanish or German might be handy), China is where the bulk of the products are made so having a good understanding of the culture, traditions, and language will score bonus points.

With that said, I unfortunately have no knowledge of Chinese language except some basic words and a couple phrases.

For QC, most companies will deal with a trading agent or have company staff than manage QC and/or logistics and other business matters.

-ska todd

buildyourown · Jan 4, 2009

There is a big difference between frame designers and frame builders. Most small builders have very little formal education. If they do, it is often in some form of metal work such as art or machining. That, or they go to BTI. I went to trade school to be a machinist and ended up working as an apprentice at a frame shop.

To be a general engineer in the bike biz, ME is your best bet.

Ingleside · Jan 4, 2009

I say go for mechanical engineering with a mix of marketing and international business.

If you are like me and can't do calculus to save your life get into industrial design and marketing.

RMboy · Jan 4, 2009

Well you could do Industrial design. I know its not full on engineering, but it has it in.. and u learn to have taste and understand and incorporate aesthetics into your design...hehe

Little dig at the Eng boys..lol, im sorry i have to im a designer.... :biggrin:

But all jokes aside, i do a great new course called Design and Innovation, where you learn Design/Industrial Design and Mechanical Engineering, and you come out with a Beng or Meng at the end of 3 or 4 years. I dont know if there is other courses out there like that, but i really does help you understand all sides of design..

Just incase u want to come to England. http://www.qmul.ac.uk/courses/department.php?dept_id=28&article_id=645

But Machanical engineering is just as good.. but u will end up only thinking square!!

oster_oops:

rewster · Jan 4, 2009

i'm a mechanical engineering junior/(supersenior).....next semester i'm making some levers on the cnc for a design project, shhhhwing. the endless calculus and physics really cut into my riding time, but hopefully it will all pay off

and i'm trying to break the square engr mold

this is kinda inspiring....Pro-e is the program i use most

SuspectDevice · Jan 4, 2009

Honestly,
Don't bother.

Pip3r · Jan 4, 2009

I am currently studying industrial design and am loving it. Its tricky to know your limits though, especially when it comes to something that needs as much engineering behind it as a bicycle frame. Bicycles need a heavy dose of function with a sweet touch of form.

If your looking to craft your own crazy ideas and see what comes out of them, and maybe work for a very small company or do your own gig, a mechanical design approach would probably be best.

If you want to have a more calculated approach and bust out the computer and calculator before your chop saw and a welder, a straight up mechanical engineering degree would be the way to go.

An industrial designer is the link between the consumers, marketing, and engineers in determining what the end users needs, wants and desires are. In this, you will be involved in the whole process, primarily with the initial concept phase and the final aesthetic phases, but all the while having to compensate and work closely with the mechanical engineers to make sure the damn thing can work right in the first place. There is really only so much you can do that is 'fresh' on a bike though, but the big companies (Specialized, Trek, Giant, Cannondale) do have dedicated industrial design departments that get a bit more freedom to imagine, play, and push new ideas.

SuspectDevice · Jan 4, 2009

Honestly though, the best, most innovative, and most successful frame builders and/or bike designers I know (and I know most of them) don't even have college degrees. Some of them didn't even graduate from highschool. Everything you really need to know about bike design and frame building can be learned from building bikes, all day, every day from an experienced hand, and riding bikes, all day, every day at an elite level.
That's it, either be a marketing genius(a rare exception), or pay your dues. Nothing else will even get you close to be worth a salary...

buildyourown · Jan 4, 2009

Rover Nick said:
FWIW, I'm early in a geology degree and have a good portion of my Calc and general sci done and I'm seiously considering a switch to Aerospace Engineering.

From a general job prospects angle, I would consider that a poor move. My wife is a Geologist and things in her field have been very good.
I used to work in aerospace and I still work and live in Seattle, a city that lives and dies with Boeing. The industry as a whole is VERY cyclical and worrying about layoffs sucks.

Kanye West · Jan 5, 2009

If you're in Geo, you owe it to yourself to sell out and learn as much about oil and petroleum as possible.

Everyone I know who has gone into a career in Aerospace Engineering has been miserable. There are majors for Industrial and Manufacturing Engineering too (usually divisions of Mechanical Engineering) if that is what piques your interest.

Being versed in an Asian language will be a real asset too. It doesn't necessarily have to be Chinese, and that may not be a great idea since markets are slowly starting to move out of China and towards Taiwan.

Pslide · Jan 5, 2009

Mech Engineering definitely gives you a broad sprectrum of skills which makes you employable.

If you're interested in working in the bike industry, maybe you should check to see what jobs are currently available?

i.e. http://www.specialized.com/bc/sbcJobs.jsp

You might want to consider materials science (i.e. metals, carbon fiber, etc) or welding engineering. I've seen jobs advertised in this area before. Suspension design has been done to death, but there is always more to learn in terms of materials science.

In all honesty though, what our sport needs is more promoters, marketeers, race organizers, etc. Guys like Martin Whitley...

dilzy · Jan 5, 2009

Sell out and do Ocean Engineering. Work for 5-10 years and start your own bike company.

MMike · Jan 5, 2009

Don't go into anything that can be outsourced....like engineering.

rewster · Jan 5, 2009

MMike said:
Don't go into anything that can be outsourced....like engineering.

wtf are you talking about? every report I see of top paying jobs for US graduates puts ME at the top of the list. sure, most of the manufacturing is outsourced, but theres still plenty of life in the american engineering spirit

rewster · Jan 5, 2009

Rover Nick said:
I'm early in a geology degree and have a good portion of my Calc and general sci done and I'm seiously considering a switch to Aerospace Engineering.

might want to check on credit transfers first. i switched majors, and had to retake all of my math and lower sciences....most of them are engineering and phyisics specific. and if you think you have your calc out of the way, you're in for a rude awakening: engineers take calc until graduation, they just run out of names for it so it turns into statics, solids, fluids, thermodynamics, etc......

rbx · Jan 5, 2009

I'm a technician mechanical engineer i dont know you guys call it in the states!?

I started designing frames about 10 years ago and still learning...

aj_gilbs · Jan 5, 2009

Yeah I've seen a couple lists that put engineering as the number one most recession proof and most stable overall job out there. Because most engineering is still done in the U.S. but the manufacturing is overseas, and engineers design everything to make every other job out there possible, from tractors for farmers to medical equipment for doctors.

It is the most employable major you can choose in college.

MMike · Jan 5, 2009

rewster said:
wtf are you talking about? every report I see of top paying jobs for US graduates puts ME at the top of the list. sure, most of the manufacturing is outsourced, but theres still plenty of life in the american engineering spirit

Well then I guess all those companies in India are lying...

[TA] · Jan 5, 2009

Don't let any of these guys discourage you, the bike industry is an awesome place to work. I majored in ME and am currently on the R&D suspension frame side, and I freaking love my job. I get to travel all over to test bikes, and ride with some awesome people. Plus getting to ride/design stuff that most people wont see for years is pretty fun too. I will warn you though the bike industry is a small place so getting in can be a waiting game. If you're not into the engineering thing there are also a lot of industrial designers in the industry. Small frame builders are great, but if you want to make enough $$$ to pay off college loans and have a good standard of living there's nothing wrong with working for a bigger company.

ChrisKring · Jan 5, 2009

[TA];3132925 said:
Don't let any of these guys discourage you, the bike industry is an awesome place to work. I majored in ME and am currently on the R&D suspension frame side, and I freaking love my job. I get to travel all over to test bikes, and ride with some awesome people. Plus getting to ride/design stuff that most people wont see for years is pretty fun too. I will warn you though the bike industry is a small place so getting in can be a waiting game. If you're not into the engineering thing there are also a lot of industrial designers in the industry. Small frame builders are great, but if you want to make enough $$$ to pay off college loans and have a good standard of living there's nothing wrong with working for a bigger company.

Any chance you are Tony T?

[TA] · Jan 5, 2009

ChrisKring said:
Any chance you are Tony T?

Na Tony left a year or so ago, so I guess that made me his replacement...

wood booger · Jan 5, 2009

Mechanical Engineering makes the frame "work" (at least in theory).

Industrial Design makes the frame look pretty (or pretty ugly).

Manufacturing Engineering makes sure the frame gets made right (and effeciently).

Some guy or girl hardly able to afford food actually makes the frame. Or increasingly, a welding robot lends a hand.

Pick your poison.

The bike industry is a labor lof love (not $) for all but a few. I couldn't see myself anywhere else, even if I can never buy a house in Cally.

It is true that an understanding of Chinese language and business customs can be a benefit, especially w/ the big companies.

SquadraCorse · Jan 5, 2009

My advice to you is to do something that you like and makes you a lot of money, and do the frame building/designing as a side thing.

I love motorsports. I worked as a professional race car mechanic for a year, and realized that I'd rather work the 9-5, make a bunch of cash, and then use it to race. Instead of trying to make it in an industry that doesn't pay anything and watching other people have the fun.

I'm a mechanical engineer/manager and can tell you that having a BS in ME opens a ton of doors. It's a good basis for a lot of different career paths. If you are set on being a bike designer, you'd want a degree in ME, not industrial design. Aesthetics are great, and I'll be going to grad school for Industrial Design, but if you want to make something like a downhill bike, you'd be better off with an education in mechanical engineering. Designing a bike will be all about manufacturing, stresses, strain, FEA, fatigue, friction, geometry, loads, etc. etc. Aesthetics are a byproduct of a good frame design IMO, not the basis for one.

buildyourown · Jan 5, 2009

Rover Nick said:
Hmm, very interesting

What do you and your wife do, if you dont mind me asking?

I'm a Mechanical Engineering Tech. I don't have a degree, but I do a fair amount a engineering. I also do a LOT of machining and plumbing and wiring assembly and anything else required to build the machines and tools that we use to make our products. It's super fun and rarely gets boring. Way better than sitting at a desk all day. I tried that. Solidworks gets boring after about the 6th straight month.

My wife is an Environmental Geologist. Her degree is in tradition hard rock but since we live in an area with not much rock, mostly she deals with soil and water and the pollutants that other people have put in them.

My only strong advise is to stay away from aerospace engineering. With a ME degree, you can work in just about any field. An AE degree will pigeon hole you into something you may not like in a few years or an industry that is very weak.

buildyourown · Jan 6, 2009

Rover Nick said:
I guess by my nature, I would rather do something I love and with less job security rather than something that doesnt intrest me at all with lots of job security

Right, almost everybody says that. There comes a point where you need to earn enough to be comfortable. You need a degree that can pay back any loans and provide you with a liveable wage and benefits. I got out of framebuilding professionally because I got tired of eating Ramen and not having any insurance. It was just too easy for me to double my wage in another industry. I have since quadrupled my wage.

You can always do aerospace with a ME degree. The ME is just MUCH more versatile.

Kanye West · Jan 6, 2009

buildyourown said:
Right, almost everybody says that. There comes a point where you need to earn enough to be comfortable. You need a degree that can pay back any loans and provide you with a liveable wage and benefits. I got out of framebuilding professionally because I got tired of eating Ramen and not having any insurance. It was just too easy for me to double my wage in another industry. I have since quadrupled my wage.

You can always do aerospace with a ME degree. The ME is just MUCH more versatile.

Exactly. End of the day you need to be able to make ends meet. That's priority one, no matter how nice it sounds to be able to work a laid back job you love and just "get by". It rarely works that way, successfully at least. If you have money you can pay to play. If you don't, you don't get to do much else outside of your job...

I'd agree on going for the broader engineering degree too BTW. You would kinda back yourself into a corner with AE. There's plenty of dedicated mechanical stuff to do in aerospace too.

Just remember, for aerospace you may spend 6 months working on a single part or sub-assembly...you'll get much more variety and keep yourself engaged a lot better with ME. Also, learn Pro E...

thom9719 · Jan 6, 2009

Hacktastic said:
Also, learn Pro E...

Don't waste time learning pro-E. learn solidworks inside and out, then learn CATIA.

Kyle,

dilzy · Jan 6, 2009

If you want the fancy pants jobs, learn Catia as said above.

Make sure your well versed in the technical aspects of a stand alone FEA package. Ansys is the one we learn, but it's very expensive.

Kanye West · Jan 6, 2009

Nobody serious uses SolidWorks. Catia is somewhat awkward, but pretty powerful.

buckoW · Jan 6, 2009

Hacktastic said:
Nobody serious uses SolidWorks. Catia is somewhat awkward, but pretty powerful.

Some of the Scott engineers use Solidworks for some stuff.

Frame Builder(Designer) Education level?

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