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Formula The One - Pad sensitivity?

-C-

Monkey
May 27, 2007
296
10
I may be going mad here, but I thought it was worth throwing out there...

Has anyone else noticed pad life massively affecting lever throw?

I've been convinced I had air in the system on my front brake so bled it to within an inch of its life, only to still have a big throw (right back to the bar before even feeling remotely solid).

Checked the pads, and to be fair, they are pretty worn, but by no means on their last legs, so bunged a new set in & all of a sudden it feels like a Hayes 9 :shocked:

Maybe its a combination of an (now) awesome bleed & new pads, but i'm just a bit surprised by the difference.
 

blender

Monkey
Oct 19, 2006
642
0
MDR
i've noticed a similar thing with the K18s as well.

it seems that they perform best when the pad is somewhere between 80% - 40% of it's life span.
otherwise there is just too much or too little lever throw, regardless of the bleed

i got some sintered metallic pads for it, and that seems to keep the pad within that "butter" range for muuuch longer
pretty happy with the brakes now
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
I'm selling my Mega's soon for this reason - IMPOSSIBLE to bleed. My K18's would bleed perfectly in about 5 minutes and be 100% solid at the lever, but nobody can figure out how the hell to bleed the Mega's and the One's, even with Formula's instructions.

Real shame because those brakes are such high quality and so powerful.
 

bullcrew

3 Dude Approved
Love my Ones and they are probably 15% pad life, good time to bleed them to fill it in a little and use less contact adjustment when I buy new pads.... Gone through 2 sets so far and love em, had 3 sets through the Biancos and loved them too.

New brakes or too much wear gives them a weirrd feel, just change the pads and brake a couple of times to bed them with the rotors then they are like new again.
 

Pslide

Turbo Monkey
Yeah, I've had similar problems. Needed bleeding out of the box, and when that didn't fix it they got sent to the distributor. They tightened the gold caliper piston cover and rebled them, they at least work well now, but still have inconsistent lever throw and feel.

Everyone loves these brakes, but personally I wouldn't have another set...
 

-C-

Monkey
May 27, 2007
296
10
I'm ok with the bleeding method, I use a combination of the Formula USA and Avid methods to bleed each bit seperately, as I find the MC is a bit of a black hole for air pockets that take a while to work out into the syringe.

I love the feel and the power of them, but am surprised by the difference the pads have made.

Got a set of Oro's on my little bike & not noticed this at all with them. Very strange. I shall treat the back to a fresh bleed now & see if I can get the lever feel consistent over the 2. Doesn't make it easy when pad wear is different over the brakes, to make both levers feel similar.
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
If you have any bleeding hints please share! I think Gemini aka Big Gay Dan would appreciate it.
 

-C-

Monkey
May 27, 2007
296
10
Use the Avid method, bleeding the caliper, hose and MC seperately, but add the extra bit from Formula USA about feeding fluid from one end of the system to the other. I spent about 30 minutes on the front brake alone last night & its almost too good now, if that can make sense.

Most of my time was spent with the lever end & the MC, as it seems to hold the bubbles in & is a real pain to get them all out.

Patience is the key on it!
 
May 6, 2004
253
0
I got fed up with what -C- described above. I bled it a dozen times - always the same, I got qualified and experienced bike mechanic to do the same - problem still there.
So I sold them and bought Saint M810 - now, this is the power I wanted. Happy with them, just need to find out which pad manufacturers offer sintered pads for Saint M810 brakes.

Cheers
 

Biffff

Monkey
Jan 10, 2006
913
0
If you have any bleeding hints please share! I think Gemini aka Big Gay Dan would appreciate it.
Here"s what I did and it made a huge difference. When bleeding the lever pull back on the syringe as directed to get the air out. Once the air is out push a small amount of fluid into the lever. Pull back again to check for air. Repeat that a few times. Before disconnecting the syringe push another small amount of fluid into the lever. I found this kept air from enetering the system when I was finished. My levers stayed firm (not too firm) through the entire lifespan of my pads
 

ridingsupreme

Monkey
May 12, 2008
125
0
Santa Cluas lane
Send them to formula if you fail at bleeding something designed to be easy. I for on won't bleed my one brakes simply because formula knows all the tricks of the trade per say.. and sometimes they may find something you may have missed that is keeping you from nirvana.

Call formula about lever sensitivity when installing new pads or the lever pulling in too far with old pads etc.. They know there stuff better than anyone to ever purchase these fantastic brakes.

If you switched out these brakes because you fail to set them up properly...:plthumbsdown: shame on you for not trying hard enough.

all in all.. RUN IT RIDE IT RUN IT!

there are people out there with way crappier crap crap who are way faster than you.. lol :busted:

i'm sure i'll get heat for this so in advance :clapping:
 

Hougham

Monkey
Mar 28, 2007
375
3
Many other brakes have the same trait such as the Avids and Hayes to a lesser extent. Its down to the way these brakes self adjust. If your have slightly warn pads your best to simply push the pistons all the way back then pump the brake leaver when the wheel is back in, doing so is resetting the brakes. Some times you have to try a few times.

As for new pads these to require a little time to get working properly. The actual pad you are using will make a huge difference to how long this will be.

If your after a brake with good auto adjusting you are probably best looking at the Hope range. I know many people are not fans of these on this forum but they are using the same tried and tested system as most privet vehicles on the road and even most race vehicles these days.
 

-C-

Monkey
May 27, 2007
296
10
I spoke to the chap at the UK importers for these, as i'm still surprised just a pad change can make such a difference.

He mentioned it is absolutely critical they get a good bleed, because of how they work & the modulation, yadda yadda.

Also mentioned its a 'feature' of the brake that lever travel increases exponentially as pad wear increases and lots of brakes are like this? Can't say i've ever noticed it in using pretty much most of the big manufacturers out there over the past however many years...
 

NorthWest

Chimp
Feb 11, 2008
23
0
Bellingham, WA
Something tells me you are, well, just a little retarded. Bleed your brakes. If you have the world's most expensive and highest standard of brake, spend a little time actually working on them. Instead, you come here to bitch and complain instead of figuring it out yourself. Formula USA has an updated bleeding procedure on their website. It specifically attributes the proper bleeding to correct setup. get an old rotor and a cut piece of handlebar, set it up just like in the picture (yes, this means you MUST take the brakes off the bike) and, using their bleed kit, bleed it via their procedure (trust me, they didn't come up with the formula one by copying Avid...). If this is too much work for you, then something tells me your X7 rd doesn't shift well either.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Something tells me you are, well, just a little retarded. Bleed your brakes. If you have the world's most expensive and highest standard of brake, spend a little time actually working on them. Instead, you come here to bitch and complain instead of figuring it out yourself. Formula USA has an updated bleeding procedure on their website. It specifically attributes the proper bleeding to correct setup. get an old rotor and a cut piece of handlebar, set it up just like in the picture (yes, this means you MUST take the brakes off the bike) and, using their bleed kit, bleed it via their procedure (trust me, they didn't come up with the formula one by copying Avid...). If this is too much work for you, then something tells me your X7 rd doesn't shift well either.
Or get brakes that any moron can bleed in about 5 minutes, on the bike without "updated procedures" or props? :disgust1:
 

-C-

Monkey
May 27, 2007
296
10
Something tells me you are, well, just a little retarded. Bleed your brakes. If you have the world's most expensive and highest standard of brake, spend a little time actually working on them. Instead, you come here to bitch and complain instead of figuring it out yourself. Formula USA has an updated bleeding procedure on their website. It specifically attributes the proper bleeding to correct setup. get an old rotor and a cut piece of handlebar, set it up just like in the picture (yes, this means you MUST take the brakes off the bike) and, using their bleed kit, bleed it via their procedure (trust me, they didn't come up with the formula one by copying Avid...). If this is too much work for you, then something tells me your X7 rd doesn't shift well either.
Congratulations on completely missing the point. Try going back & reading the post next time :)
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,908
634
Something tells me you are, well, just a little retarded. Bleed your brakes. If you have the world's most expensive and highest standard of brake, spend a little time actually working on them. Instead, you come here to bitch and complain instead of figuring it out yourself. Formula USA has an updated bleeding procedure on their website. It specifically attributes the proper bleeding to correct setup. get an old rotor and a cut piece of handlebar, set it up just like in the picture (yes, this means you MUST take the brakes off the bike) and, using their bleed kit, bleed it via their procedure (trust me, they didn't come up with the formula one by copying Avid...). If this is too much work for you, then something tells me your X7 rd doesn't shift well either.
Reading comprehension must not be your strongest suit. That's okay though, it isn't everybody that gets to be a winner, the world needs peons too.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
2,005
Seattle
Or get brakes that any moron can bleed in about 5 minutes, on the bike without "updated procedures" or props? :disgust1:
Ease of bleeding isn't the number one thing I look for in a brake. I'll worry about performance, and deal with bleeding the damn things.


While The Ones are definitely not the easiest brake to bleed ever, they really aren't that bad if you pay attention and think about what you're doing. It's not rocket science.
 

monkeyfcuker

Monkey
May 26, 2008
912
8
UK, Carlisle
The only thing that seems completely retarded to me is these brakes and those like them, I don't get it, how come I can rip the caliper, master cylinder or ABS unit etc etc off a car and then bleed it back up with a tin of brake fluid and a few pumps on the pedal but on a set of push bike brakes I need an overpriced bleed kit some daft procedure and the kind of patience mother Theresa would struggle with!
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Ease of bleeding isn't the number one thing I look for in a brake. I'll worry about performance, and deal with bleeding the damn things.


While The Ones are definitely not the easiest brake to bleed ever, they really aren't that bad if you pay attention and think about what you're doing. It's not rocket science.
If you have to take the brakes off the bike to bleed and use a bunch of nonsense like "cut handlebars", the brakes are fit for the dumpster. There is really no excuse.

Avid brakes take about 5 minutes.
Shimano brakes take about 1 minute.
Hope brakes take about 1 minute.
Formulas need a crazy procedure, props and the removal of brakes from the bike? Does not compute.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
2,005
Seattle
If you have to take the brakes off the bike to bleed and use a bunch of nonsense like "cut handlebars", the brakes are fit for the dumpster. There is really no excuse.

Avid brakes take about 5 minutes.
Shimano brakes take about 1 minute.
Hope brakes take about 1 minute.
Formulas need a crazy procedure, props and the removal of brakes from the bike? Does not compute.
I've successfully bled mine on the bike. It's really not that hard.
 
Oct 14, 2007
394
0
I spoke to the chap at the UK importers for these, as i'm still surprised just a pad change can make such a difference.

He mentioned it is absolutely critical they get a good bleed, because of how they work & the modulation, yadda yadda.

Also mentioned its a 'feature' of the brake that lever travel increases exponentially as pad wear increases and lots of brakes are like this? Can't say i've ever noticed it in using pretty much most of the big manufacturers out there over the past however many years...
I wouldn't really consider it as a feature, more like a question of displacement of volume. When your pad life diminished, your pistons must extend past their bore. To compensate for such the oil in your line fills the gap. Once your fluid is displaced, your lever seems to have more throw since there is less fluid in the upper part of your line.
 

J. G.

Chimp
Nov 25, 2008
12
0
I know most open systems, as some might know, have a "pressure hole" in the lever. Is This hole's main function to allow the pressure of your line to be in equilibrium with that of the atmosphere to avoid brake pump? Isn't it now thanks to this hole that the pressure in our system doesn't rise and "pre-boil" the oil
 

davep

Turbo Monkey
Jan 7, 2005
3,276
0
seattle
... Once your fluid is displaced, your lever seems to have more throw since there is less fluid in the upper part of your line.
????

My guess is that the fluid volume in the resevior is too small to adequately fill the rather large caliper piston bores once they are extended with thin pads. Once the caliper pistons are pumped all the way out, the reservior has a slight vacuum. Each time you let off the lever, fluid is sucked back up the line into the reservior, pulling the caliper pistons further from the rotor.


Either way, it is great to finally hear some balanced feedback on these brakes. Prior to this post, it seemd that eveyone held above all else as some sort of ultimate perfection in brakes.
 

Biffff

Monkey
Jan 10, 2006
913
0
seriously. I found that air was getting in when disconnecting the syringe from the lever. By pushing some fluid in before dissconnecting the syringe seems to fix this. This isn't written in the procedure.
If a little air leaks in at the end, it doesn't matter how carefull you are throughout the rest of the procedure.
These brakes are awesome, and worth it.
 

S.K.C.

Turbo Monkey
Feb 28, 2005
4,096
25
Pa. / North Jersey
Yup - After a solid year of riding on them I can now officially say that I have the same problem with mine...

Because these things have so much power they tend to chew through pads - when they do - the lever throw goes from "normal" to almost touching the grips... I just put up with it and solve the problem by throwing in a fresh set of pads...and as for bleeding - tried to do it myself, but was a pain. I just send em' to FormulaUSA to get them serviced.

The lever throw issue with worn pads REALLY bugs me though. If they could just fix this - I think these brakes would be second to none. I think davep might be on to something here. I was looking over some tech docs for the Formula ONE Master Cylinder (lever body) and the new Avid Elixir. Both MC's use a very similar compact reservoir or "Taper Bore" design as Avid calls it... yet a showroom squeeze from the Avid Elixir and the levers feel like sex... not sure how they feel with worn pads - but I haven't heard any complaints... Keep in mind that the Avid Taper Bore and Formula MC's may be similar - but are still very different.

I'm kicking around the idea of running either Avid Elixir MC's with the ONE calipers OR possibly an MC body that has a large resi in it (maybe an Avid CODE).

I will get in touch with Socket about this and see what he thinks... hydraulic systems are his speciality.
 
Last edited:
Oct 14, 2007
394
0
I know most open systems, as some might know, have a "pressure hole" in the lever. Is This hole's main function to allow the pressure of your line to be in equilibrium with that of the atmosphere to avoid brake pump? Isn't it now thanks to this hole that the pressure in our system doesn't rise and "pre-boil" the oil
The tiny hole in the reservoir cap prevents air from being trapped behind the expandable rubber bladder that separates the brake fluid from the outside world
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,777
4,700
Champery, Switzerland
After reading this thread yesterday I went down to my garage and pulled a tired old One proto brake (2 years old) off the wall and gave it a good bleed but only on the lever side with the caliper side still closed. I push pulled the fluid while pulling the lever of the brake maybe 5 times. After that, I pushed a bit too much fluid into the lever so it was pouring out when I quickly put the bleed screw back in. That resulted in the best bleed I have ever achieved with a One brake.

The power is great and I agree that sometimes bleeding them can be a pain but if you don't get a good bleed then the slim pad problem will be a big problem. Try the technique above and hopefully it will solve the problem. It did for me. Oh and if you lay the bike on it's side then the lever bleed screw is facing up and no need to disassemble the brake from the bike.
 

Hougham

Monkey
Mar 28, 2007
375
3
I've successfully bled mine on the bike. It's really not that hard.
That is impressive. We often get one side done at work but just about always have to spin a leaver round to do the other. You really have to have both bleed ports facing upward to stop the fluid simply falling out when you unscrew. I find it odd that its the only brake system you have to lay the bike on the flaw to bleed. Not complaining as there dam good brakes when they are setup.
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,777
4,700
Champery, Switzerland
That is impressive. We often get one side done at work but just about always have to spin a leaver round to do the other. You really have to have both bleed ports facing upward to stop the fluid simply falling out when you unscrew. I find it odd that its the only brake system you have to lay the bike on the flaw to bleed. Not complaining as there dam good brakes when they are setup.
I think it has to do with the lightweight design AND great power. If it were heavier then maybe those problems would not exist. I find the newer batches don't suffer nearly as much as the first batches.