from SRAM to shimano

jumping_jesus · Apr 1, 2009

i was running XT 770 and DA short cage and it worked great. Now i am running saint shifter and r.der short cage and it is great too. i think that the new saint der has stiffer spring tension then the road stuff now too. i feel it is worth it i like the new shimano better then the sram x9 stuff. when ever i go back to my x9 bike it reminds me that i made the right choice by going back to shimano. shimano actually has trickle down technology unlike sram stuff.

mrpercussive · Apr 1, 2009

new shimanos have the thumb shifting thing going on as well... you'll be just fine...

mattmatt86 · Apr 1, 2009

just replace the x.9 rear der with a new one and use the money saved for beer.

Cabdoctor · Apr 1, 2009

Run the Sram Rocket shifters, which are not longer made but you can still find them. They're basically an x.9 with a 2:1 ration so they work with shimano. Or, you can run the cheaper Sram Attacks.

OGRipper · Apr 1, 2009

Meh. All the good stuff works really well at this point, and since SRAM became such a major player Shimano has stepped up and stopped pulling a lot of the planned obsolesence BS that pissed me off for years. I prefer the feel of shimano shifting and I think their chains and cassettes are more durable, but at this point I'll pretty much run whatever.

Bicyclist · Apr 1, 2009

I've been going back and forth a lot between Sram and Shimano on my new build. I think I'm definitely going Shimano on cranks, chain, and cassette, but I don't know about shifter/derailleur yet.

I like the fact that X-9 is cheap for derailleurs, they come in short cage, and they're light.

However, I like Saint derailleurs for the stiff spring and durability. Plus I think I like the way the shifter feels better than Sram I think. In the end I think I will do Sram to save myself money and weight over Shimano.

If XT derailleurs came in short cage as opposed to just long and mid I would probably go for Shimano, but Saint is quite pricey, and I don't want a mid-cage either.

My .02.

iRider · Apr 1, 2009

William42 said:
.......At the moment I'm on a full x9 set up. ......
..... I'm already running an ultegra cassette chopped down to a 6 speed. .....

How do you limit the derailleur? Aren't the limit screws too short to do it?

Racebike · Apr 1, 2009

iRider said:
How do you limit the derailleur? Aren't the limit screws too short to do it?

You can always center the remainder of the cassette on the freewheel body, it doesn't have to be to one side.

Either that or get longer set screws.

I run a 6 speed with a X.0 rear mech, the set screws did not take well to the placing of the six cogs, one trip to the hardware store for alu-bolts and job done.

NY_Star · Apr 1, 2009

For me is a X0 Shifter X-9 Der. Dura Ace Cassette, Sram Hollow Pin Chain, Xt cranks. Cant get more mixed up. I love the Sram shifters. I have not run the new Shimano stuff but they lost me with Rapid Rise and dual control bull sh!t

JRogers · Apr 1, 2009

Tomac_racer said:
I have not run the new Shimano stuff but they lost me with Rapid Rise and dual control bull sh!t

Yeah, but they never got rid of rapidfire or top-normal stuff when they started going that route...

Shimano stuff works fine. I've used a lot of both SRAM and Shimano over the years and haven't found either to be more durable or perform much better than the other. All the newer style Shimano shifters feel pretty good, I think.

RayB · Apr 1, 2009

Will,

Get an XT Shadow. The straight-pull cable routing makes a noticeable difference over the older loop-around style -- especially with full-length housing. It's very crisp, and shifts very well under load. SRAM's X.0 trigger is still unrivaled by Shimano -- it has that nice positive *click* -- but unless you're super picky, the transition is going to feel pretty natural.

I'm running the M800-series Saint shifter with mine. Feels great. The 975-series XTR triggers are trick, but I couldn't justify the extra coin and I'm not down with the dual-click downshift.

(Yeah, my hanger is slightly bent. I know.)

gemini2k · Apr 1, 2009

Up until this week, I had sram on my 6inch bike, shimano on my DH bike. In a few days it will be shimano ONRY on both. Why?

Shimano stays in adjustment just fine, and who the hell cares which is smoother (It's a downhill track? Not pavement). As long as you know how to turn limit screws and adjust cable tension both are equally easy to keep in adjustment. The main factor is then, which can take hits better. So far, my last 2 sram derailleurs have been toast on the first minor hit, what a joke. The thing just collapses when it gets near a rock. My shadow XT stays out of the way, and straight.

Banshee Rider · Apr 1, 2009

Where exactly are you finding new model 105 and Ultegra derailleurs for half the price of X9 derailleurs? The difference in retail value between 105 and X9 is only $10 less.

I'm a SRAM guy myself. I spent some time in the woods on the new XT stuff last summer. It's nice, but its not nearly as crisp and quick as SRAM. My co-worker made the switch to full XTR, and went back to X9 before the season ended for the same reason. With XT and Ultegra both being $20 more per derailleur, and $43 more per shifter, with a slightly less degree of crisp shifting, I really don't know why you'd switch from straight X9 other than a few grams?

dh gangster · Apr 1, 2009

Racebike said:
You can always center the remainder of the cassette on the freewheel body, it doesn't have to be to one side.

Either that or get longer set screws.

I run a 6 speed with a X.0 rear mech, the set screws did not take well to the placing of the six cogs, one trip to the hardware store for alu-bolts and job done.

Aren't there still 9 clicks on the shifter though? How would you get it to not skip if your going to have to click it more than once to get every 2nd gear?

And if you only are going to click it through a certain six, i can see that being problematic.
When I'm racing and have to do an uphill or something that requires shifting I usually just grab a thumbfull and rip, I dont have time to think about how many clicks I'm going through!

demo 9 · Apr 1, 2009

i havent jumped aboard the SRAM bandwagon and still rock shimano saint/105 and have no problems-if it can hit all the gears why bother upgrading. (but im not a weight wheenie or shift quality wheenie so it doesnt matter)i think properly set up they both will perform equally(or dam close) so it really comes down to how nice of a component you want.

RayB · Apr 1, 2009

William42 said:
I'm pretty set on xt shadow/ultegra or x9

If you're going Shimano, stick to their mountain lineup. I've personally owned Dura-Ace 7800, Ultegra 6500, Ultegra SL 6600 -- all in short (SS) cages -- and while lightweight, they truly leave a lot to be desired in terms of shifting performance. I [personally] can't come up with a good reason to run a road derailleur on a DH bike nowadays.

If you're tight on cash, you may also want to give the SLX Shadow some consideration as well. Initial reviews are very positive.

They make a medium (GS) cage version.

Cheers.

Udi · Apr 1, 2009

IMO both brands work equally well these days, but shimano has an edge in durability (at least on their roadie mechs IMO). I haven't put the new saint through enough abuse to say it's as good yet, fingers crossed it's comparable.

Shimano generally has a lighter action, SRAM is a little harder to push but is crisper/snappier... if you like crispness I'd recommend the new saint shifter, it's a good match in feel. If you like a nice light action I'd go with XTR.

Either way, don't skimp on shifters, they command the shift and the topend ball-raced versions are worth the money IMO (XTR / X0 / saint). For the mech, I'd recommend saint or roadie if you want short-cage, as the other shimano lineups don't offer that option. If you are running a roadie mech, a rollamajig will perfect the setup, and if weight is a concern, dura-ace + r-jig is still lighter than X0.

Personally I have been running the XTR (M970) + dura-ace (7800SS) combo on my DH bike for the last two years, and after punching the mech on rocks plenty of times, it's still dead straight and everything still shifts like new.

Udi · Apr 1, 2009

BTW - I disagree with RayB on the derailleur count. The derailleur end of things (in contrast to what I discussed before) has little to do with the shifting action and quality of shifts, assuming it is adjusted and working correctly.

The primary benefit of more expensive RD's is that they carry less weight, and if you're one of those people that likes to buy a mech and run it for the next few years (I'm one), the higher end products have better pivot materials and sealed bearing pulleys for longer life on moving parts. But for out of the box shifting performance, and 1-season-later performance, I think that lowend and highend derailleurs will give fairly similar results.

I own both the shadow saint mech (810SS) and the aforementioned dura-ace, and when coupled with a given shifter, shifting performance is virtually identical IMO.

The benefit to the roadie-mech in the shimano lineup is that it's shortcage (XT/XTR/SLX and lower do not offer this, saint is the only other option), lighter than virtually any alternative, and incredibly strong to boot. The downside is the cable routing, but there are ways around that.

Anyway, the bottom line is - if you're on a budget, get the best shifter you can afford, and get whatever derailleur fits the remaining budget while (hopefully) fitting your criteria for cage size, weight, and long-term durability. Just know that those factors don't really affect shifting performance.

RayB · Apr 2, 2009

Udi said:
BTW - I disagree with RayB on the derailleur count. The derailleur end of things (in contrast to what I discussed before) has little to do with the shifting action and quality of shifts, assuming it is adjusted and working correctly.

I guess you misunderstood me (or I'm not clear).

You're right -- it's all in the shifter -- I agree. You're going to feel the 'crispness' you desire with your thumb moreso than your pedal stroke.
However, from my own experiences, a Dura-Ace and XT Shadow (for example) do in fact 'feel' different -- due largely in part to that extra 180-degree bend in the cable housing with all other confounding factors held constant. This difference is further accentuated when you factor in long, full-length housing on a 8"-travel bike. This is why I stand by my recommendation.

Zark · Apr 2, 2009

William42,

I switched from shimano to sram and back to shimano... whacky I know but here's the deal. I was using 105 with an xt shifter. Similar reasons you mention but road mechs aren't up to the task, they can't take a hit. The problem? The location of the cable clamp, its the first thing to get hit on a Shimano (non shadow) der. Once its hit hard enough it limits the swing of the parallelogram, taking out most of your gears. I've seen it and done it too many times to count. The other problem is the cable loop and the extra friction that generates on the cable.

The durability problems of Shimano's previous design led me to try the Sram stuff. Picked up an X9 shifter and X9 short cage. Loved the shifting precision, got used to the thumb-thumb shifting style. I thought all was good. But after killing two mechs in short order I changed my tune.

Now Shadow appears on the market. No more rock magnet cable clamp location and super slim profile answers my previous big complaint. I go for the Xt Shadow der on my AM bike. Shifting wasn't quite as snappy, but not bad. More of a fluid shift instead of the hard snap in a SRAM setup. A year later and its holding up great, tagged it a couple times, but not much.

Now the new Saint.
I've just got the Saint der and shifter on my DH bike now. The setup is the sh*t. Still not as good of shifting as SRAM, but really close, and its thumb actuated too. But the derailler seems tough! First ride was Tunnel on the new drivetrain, tagged it on the first day out too. So far so good, time will tell on how it all works out.

If you are on the cheap and still want to do the big S, get a XT mid cage and SLX pod, but don't go the road route. Its just going to be more dead mechs!

Racebike · Apr 2, 2009

dh gangster said:
Aren't there still 9 clicks on the shifter though? How would you get it to not skip if your going to have to click it more than once to get every 2nd gear?

And if you only are going to click it through a certain six, i can see that being problematic.
When I'm racing and have to do an uphill or something that requires shifting I usually just grab a thumbfull and rip, I dont have time to think about how many clicks I'm going through!

I don't really get you here. I have 6 cogs that are together in a normal pattern (i.e. cog-spacer-cog-spacer etc.)

I use spacers on the freewheel body on either side of that configuration. You use the set screws to limit the motion to only this part and then set the wire normally.

This makes the first 5 "clicks" on the shifter make up the entire range of six gears and then it stops because of the limit screws. You following?

Eurotrash · Apr 2, 2009

I had great luck with X0 when it first came out, rear mech took some bangs and never failed on me. The mech came stock on a bike, those things cost a serious amount of cash over here. Next bike came with an X9, went through 2 rear mechs in 6 rides. I've had the new saint hanging of the back of my bike since august and I'm really happy with it. I'd say sram if you want the bling and can afford X0 if not Shimano

dh gangster · Apr 2, 2009

Racebike said:
I don't really get you here. I have 6 cogs that are together in a normal pattern (i.e. cog-spacer-cog-spacer etc.)

I use spacers on the freewheel body on either side of that configuration. You use the set screws to limit the motion to only this part and then set the wire normally.

This makes the first 5 "clicks" on the shifter make up the entire range of six gears and then it stops because of the limit screws. You following?

Yeah thanks, i guess i didn't get the fact that there still wouldn't be 9 clicks.
So your saying that it only goes through the 6 gears and one click equals one gear right? So only 5 clicks then through the range of gears, and then the top 3 clicks possible with a 9 speed just don't get actuated. Correct?

nmpearson · Apr 2, 2009

we put an xt shadow on a rental bike...and i seriously hate that thing. It not as crisp, and ghost shifts no matter who tunes it. I've never had that problem with x.9 stuff. it's just so much better. for road though, i always use shimano. i just don't think sram has it just yet

- seb · Apr 2, 2009

iRider said:
How do you limit the derailleur? Aren't the limit screws too short to do it?

Correct, they only have enough to limit it down to 7 gears. I ordered a 20mmxM4 grub screw off some random hardware site on the net, which has fixed the problem neatly and easily.

- seb · Apr 2, 2009

Udi said:
The benefit to the roadie-mech in the shimano lineup is that it's shortcage (XT/XTR/SLX and lower do not offer this, saint is the only other option), lighter than virtually any alternative, and incredibly strong to boot. The downside is the cable routing, but there are ways around that.

Amen. Short & light FTW. If they made a front-entry (or whatever you call it) cable routing dura-ace I'd be a very happy man. Hope my 7900 that I've just got proves to be just as durable as the 7800!

nmpearson said:
we put an xt shadow on a rental bike...and i seriously hate that thing. It not as crisp, and ghost shifts no matter who tunes it. I've never had that problem with x.9 stuff. it's just so much better. for road though, i always use shimano. i just don't think sram has it just yet

Ghost shifting is caused by poor cable routing, or using an inner too thin for the outer. It is not caused by your mech (although SRAMs actuation ratio will help). Sort your cable out, and the XT will be just fine.

Seb's top tip of the day: If running a shimano mech (no idea if SRAM has such a thing) - swap the pulleys. Get that float pulley away from the block. IMHO the float is there to help your average numpty set their gears up "adequately" and not have to adjust them much. If you're happy adjusting gears occasionally then you're better off without it, your shifts will be much crisper and more accurate. IMHO.

from SRAM to shimano

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