who's holdn out for new boxxer?

k1creeker · May 27, 2009

davetrump said:
unless you are running brakes that do not have a 2 bolt clamp at the lever (pretty much all brakes are two bolt these days).... simply take the lever off the bar oster_oops:

Yeah, You can pull the lever off instead, but then you're stuck with the lever, cable, and caliper assembly flopping all over the place while you tear down the fork. Not to mention the possbile exposure of your brake pads to all kinds of lube, oil, and Tri-flow over spray.

gemini2k · May 27, 2009

This thread is such a LOLZ fest. The F1 analogies crack me up. F1 cars are one-off race machines, that are designed to take an entire team of engineers just to turn them on, not mass produced, consumer products that have been (supposedly) tested for several years. I'll stick to my coil 888. Oil change every once in a while, and feels like new still. Even after 12 months of year round, fairly hard and frequent riding. I don't get why people keep buying these products as soon as they come out. Haven't enough people got burned by first year production forks in the last 2-3 years?

Udi · May 27, 2009

Someone will shoot me down for saying this (just an observation) but I've been following the thread, and a couple people have alluded to the fork becoming sticky not very long after a seal grease / lower oil change? Good immediately after, but how about after 4-5 days of runs?

I just get this drift that perhaps the new boxxer is a step backwards rather than forwards from the old one in terms of chassis/bushings... we never had to cut out sealing lips, remove seals, or do anything that crazy on the old boxxer for them to feel good. An oil and grease change once every 1-2 months usually kept it running quite prime.

I'm just keeping tabs on this thread because I don't NEED to upgrade to the new one and I'd rather make sure it will actually be an "up" grade before I bother. I'm getting a little tired of the big names abusing the hell out of everyone that posts a legitimate issue rather than letting them surface (and possibly be solved)... because having owned upwards of 10-12 motion control boxxers, there was usually a 50% chance that you'd get a nice smooth one and the other half would have sticky bushings, and sometimes they wouldn't actually improve after break-in.... so please, just because your fork is great, don't assume that everyone else's is the same. This isn't an RS specific thing, every brand experiences it at some point - but I just know for a fact that it isn't out of the ordinary with boxxers.

John P. · May 27, 2009

Good reality check post there, Udi. I can definitely understand your (and others') concerns with the several horror stories that have been mentioned here.

For what it's worth though, my '10 Boxxer WC has been great. It felt a little stiff/sticky right out of the box, but broke in after one day of practice runs at Massanutten. I took mine apart after reading some of these posts, but mine was great inside - plenty of lube under the seals and plenty of oil in both lowers. The fork rides really nice, with great tortional stiffness really nice bump absorption.

The only gripe I have is that I wish there was a bit wider range of adjustment on the LSC and Beginning Stroke Rebound, but I realize I'm probably in a tiny minority here. I ride as much moto as I do DH these days, and I've grown accustomed to that super-damped feel on my WR. Maybe someday I'll get the balls to fiddle around with the oil weight in the damping cartridge.

bent_steel · May 27, 2009

To K1creeker,

Well, for a short answer, there was a large amount of red gunk mixed in with the oil in the compression leg. This was more than likely limiting the flow of oil and that was both messing up the rebound and also the compression. After thoroughly cleaning everything including the compression cartridge and the blue spring (rubber thing around the compression cartridge) and adding fresh oil/ lubing with slick honey everything seemed to work again like new. I plan to ride some this weekend and will let you know if anything changes.

But I can attest, it feels much better than it did out of the box and all adjustments seem to be working great now.

slowmtb · May 28, 2009

Udi said:
Someone will shoot me down for saying this (just an observation) but I've been following the thread, and a couple people have alluded to the fork becoming sticky not very long after a seal grease / lower oil change? Good immediately after, but how about after 4-5 days of runs?

I just get this drift that perhaps the new boxxer is a step backwards rather than forwards from the old one in terms of chassis/bushings... we never had to cut out sealing lips, remove seals, or do anything that crazy on the old boxxer for them to feel good. An oil and grease change once every 1-2 months usually kept it running quite prime.

I'm just keeping tabs on this thread because I don't NEED to upgrade to the new one and I'd rather make sure it will actually be an "up" grade before I bother. I'm getting a little tired of the big names abusing the hell out of everyone that posts a legitimate issue rather than letting them surface (and possibly be solved)... because having owned upwards of 10-12 motion control boxxers, there was usually a 50% chance that you'd get a nice smooth one and the other half would have sticky bushings, and sometimes they wouldn't actually improve after break-in.... so please, just because your fork is great, don't assume that everyone else's is the same. This isn't an RS specific thing, every brand experiences it at some point - but I just know for a fact that it isn't out of the ordinary with boxxers.

- FYI, I am not a RS hater or a Fox, Maz etc etc lover, in fact I run all of them between my rides. The new Boxxer has sooooo much potential and I am looking forward to the day that everyone gets them dialed. I will continue to check in on progress, all the best team :cheers:

contactjt · May 28, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by contactjt
A mate of mine ran his 40 without the oil seal and if felt unbelievably supple. Saying that it spat out a thin layer of oil onto the stanchions most runs which needs to be wiped off.

dhkid said:
did he cut out the lower seal or something? coz the 40 only runs one seal anyway, well, a sorta combination seal.

Actually I should have included more details. As I'm not too familiar with the 40 I didn't know the stock seal was a one piece combo.

He actually purchased enduro fork seals and just fitted the blue wiper seal, ommitting the oil seal.

dhkid · May 28, 2009

ahh, that makes more sense. cheers.

go-ride.com · May 28, 2009

contactjt said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by contactjt
A mate of mine ran his 40 without the oil seal and if felt unbelievably supple. Saying that it spat out a thin layer of oil onto the stanchions most runs which needs to be wiped off.

Actually I should have included more details. As I'm not too familiar with the 40 I didn't know the stock seal was a one piece combo.

He actually purchased enduro fork seals and just fitted the blue wiper seal, ommitting the oil seal.

As others have pointed out the Fox 40 only uses a single wiper/seal combo. We have had good reports in function of the Enduro seals. However, they are also made of a harder material and we've seen them trap grit and badly scratch fork legs. So, if you are going to run Enduro seals you need to clean them regularly like the stock Fox seals.

The truth is the two top race forks require regular maintenance to keep them running at their best. We have plenty of riders that bring them in and say they run great with no maintenance. Then I let them take a test ride on a maintained fork and they are really surprised how much better it is with maintenance. Then we strip down their forks and find no lubricating oil, damaged bushings, and often blown dampers. At this time in suspension development they require maintenance.

Big J · May 28, 2009

Last Friday after practice at the Open I swapped out my ’08 Team for the 2010 and I must say there was a noticeable improvement especially in off camber tracking. The new Boxxer did feel stiff and I had to keep the uppers cleaned and lubed due to the before mentioned build up of bushing material on the left slider.

I’d like to perform a lube and oil change this weekend but I’m at a loss on where to find ‘Slick Honey’, my LBS’s were of no use but I kept my expectations in check. Does anyone know where I may order some Slick Honey or a suitable substitute in the interim?

Thanks again for the excellent info.

J

big-ted · May 28, 2009

Big J said:
Last Friday after practice at the Open I swapped out my ’08 Team for the 2010 and I must say there was a noticeable improvement especially in off camber tracking. The new Boxxer did feel stiff and I had to keep the uppers cleaned and lubed due to the before mentioned build up of bushing material on the left slider.

I’d like to perform a lube and oil change this weekend but I’m at a loss on where to find ‘Slick Honey’, my LBS’s were of no use but I kept my expectations in check. Does anyone know where I may order some Slick Honey or a suitable substitute in the interim?

Thanks again for the excellent info.

J

Not specifically on the new boxxer, but what I've alwas done on my forks is to use manitou prep m mixed in with some fork oil. You want to add just enough oil such that the mixture just holds its shape after stirring.

uncle-mofo · May 28, 2009

Am I the only one who thinks RS shipping out the forks dry is retarded? Quality control must be next to zero in that factory and it's pretty **** to expect customers to finish off building a fork that they already paid over 1000 dollars for, 1k is A LOT of money to a lot of people and to spend that much I'd expect a fork to work flawlessly after break in. I'm a firm believer in the older open bath 888s to be the ultimate DH fork unless you're racing at the absolute highest level. I've changed the oil in my 05 888 once in two years and it didn't really need it I just thought I should. The oil in the compression side was perfect and the rebound side was just a tiny bit dirty. That's pretty damn good in my opinion.

JeffKill · May 28, 2009

Big J said:
Id like to perform a lube and oil change this weekend but Im at a loss on where to find Slick Honey, my LBSs were of no use but I kept my expectations in check. Does anyone know where I may order some Slick Honey or a suitable substitute in the interim?

Do a google search for Slick Honey, you'll get quite a few results....

I think you can also use Rock N Roll Super Slick Grease as well.

Big J · May 28, 2009

JeffKill said:
Do a google search for Slick Honey, you'll get quite a few results....

I think you can also use Rock N Roll Super Slick Grease as well.

Jeff,

Thanks!! I found the Mfg website and ordered a tub, I didn't think direct retail was available. Very cool.

John,

Thanks again for posting links to the service manuals!

Great thread!

J

Kanye West · May 28, 2009

uncle-mofo said:
Am I the only one who thinks RS shipping out the forks dry is retarded? Quality control must be next to zero in that factory and it's pretty **** to expect customers to finish off building a fork that they already paid over 1000 dollars for, 1k is A LOT of money to a lot of people and to spend that much I'd expect a fork to work flawlessly after break in. I'm a firm believer in the older open bath 888s to be the ultimate DH fork unless you're racing at the absolute highest level. I've changed the oil in my 05 888 once in two years and it didn't really need it I just thought I should. The oil in the compression side was perfect and the rebound side was just a tiny bit dirty. That's pretty damn good in my opinion.

'07 888 WC with a BOS cartridge and a Zoke "X" bottom-out cartridge and some major love to the stanchions and seals = tits.

Inclag · May 28, 2009

This thread proves that there are a significant amount of people out there that don't know much about suspension or proper suspension setup, but they do want something that requires minimal service.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. A good rider will make up for inferior suspension setup nearly every time, but a fork that is not an open system is likely going to need some more TLC by nature. I will agree that a fork that is bone dry from the manufacturer is unacceptable, but there are loads of people out there that thrash their Boxxer's, Fox's, and Manitou's and will smoke them within 1-1.5 years (alot of times less) because they don't service them at all (much like the go-ride folks alluded to).

If I've learned anything with this thread, it is that Marzocchi really dropped the ball some years ago. At a time when other manufacturers were struggling with their chassis, damping platforms, bushing tolerances, sealing etc., Marz had a chance to really hit the ball out of the park. Instead, they continued engineering non-serviceable cartridges, they opted to make a massive confusing line-up of forks (many OEM driven) with lower end models using archaic ported dampers, and manufacturing moved to Taiwan and all of a sudden machine work, finishes, and tolerances went out the window. With regard to the Taiwan comment, those sort of things should never happen these days with proper communication and having the right people overseeing production since there is amazing work coming out of that country. Marzocchi's forks would have still inevitably been a little heavier than some of their competitors, but people could neglect them. It didn't seem that long ago when most racers out east were running the Super T and first gen 888's...

madzappa · May 31, 2009

So after correctly leveling up the bath oil, my Team was finally dialed and felt absolutely amazing... then after about 6 hrs of hard riding, it began to feel tight again!! I dropped the lowers to investigate and found very little oil in the spring side.... I had put 40CC in between the bushings. What did drip out was a bit of very thick goo, which I'm guessing is a mixture of spring grease and oil. I wonder if the lower bushing is not holding the oil in the right place and it just drips to bottom and then gets compressed into the spring cartridge(which is not sealed)??

The other side was fine and the correct amount of oil stayed were it was supposed to, between the bushings.

So it looks like I need to tune my Team every 5 hours, this sucks.

cableguy · May 31, 2009

madzappa said:
So after correctly leveling up the bath oil, my Team was finally dialed and felt absolutely amazing... then after about 6 hrs of hard riding, it began to feel tight again!! I dropped the lowers to investigate and found very little oil in the spring side.... I had put 40CC in between the bushings. What did drip out was a bit of very thick goo, which I'm guessing is a mixture of spring grease and oil. I wonder if the lower bushing is not holding the oil in the right place and it just drips to bottom and then gets compressed into the spring cartridge(which is not sealed)??

The other side was fine and the correct amount of oil stayed were it was supposed to, between the bushings.

So it looks like I need to tune my Team every 5 hours, this sucks.

Can someone else confirm this? If so, I may need to think about WC or 40 instead.

davetrump · May 31, 2009

cableguy said:
Can someone else confirm this? If so, I may need to think about WC or 40 instead.

nope... the two boxxer teams lee and i have have been mint for a few weeks now. a couple of weekends at bromont, US open, some bike washing, trail riding, etc.

re read ths thread and take the advice of the people who's forks are working correctly... chances are they are doing something right.

the bushings are rarely the source of stickyness and they only require a thin film of oil... i guarentee even the people who claim their fork to be "dry" still have plenty of oil in bushings.

sticky rubber seals are usually the cause... PACK THEM with slick honey. there is a gap in between the seals you need to fill or greae will get pushed in there.

basically everything you see in this pic (thanks UDI) needs to be prepped correctly and you will have a fork that goes a long time between service intervals (as in once a month)

also before/after ever ride (or when you take a break on lift service days) take a few drops of triflow (thin oil) and wipe upper tubes with it. compress fork a few times and wipe clean. this gets dirt out of the upper ip of the dust seal which is very tight ans gets sticky if dry.

that goes for all forks, not just boxxers.

just trying to help

edit: some great SRAM tech info and vids here http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=SRAMtech&view=videos

cableguy · May 31, 2009

Thanks. I did notice that the 1st oil change in Lyrik after I changed the spring was murky. Which grease should I use to coat the coil spring in the Boxxer? Lighter Slick Honey or thicker bearing grease?

northernstyle · May 31, 2009

Kanter said:
How often are you going to have to relube the Boxxer to keep it feeling good? Any ideas from people who have some significant time on the fork.

I live in whistler and ride mine for about 7-10 runs a day. I am having to re-grease and toss in some new oil every 5 days or so . I tri flow them before and after everytime i ride them and even with that they start to feel sticky on about 5-6 lap, by the end of the day they feel like ****. I am seriously thinking about cutting out the none oil side seal or something because this is a lot of maintanence. When they feel good they feel awesome but it doesnt last very long. I am going to take them apart tonight and toss in 40ml on the coil side i have been doing 10-15 but it is just not lasting long enough. Its funny i remember watching that designers video a few months ago and they were talking about how u could run these new forks dry. hahah yeah right. when i got mine they were dry and lasted about 2 runs before the seals were rubbing off on the stanchions. awesome. I feel bad for people who bought these.

davetrump · May 31, 2009

northernstyle said:
I live in whistler and ride mine for about 7-10 runs a day. I am having to re-grease and toss in some new oil every 5 days or so . I tri flow them before and after everytime i ride them and even with that they start to feel sticky on about 5-6 lap, by the end of the day they feel like ****. I am seriously thinking about cutting out the none oil side seal or something because this is a lot of maintanence. When they feel good they feel awesome but it doesnt last very long. I am going to take them apart tonight and toss in 40ml on the coil side i have been doing 10-15 but it is just not lasting long enough. Its funny i remember watching that designers video a few months ago and they were talking about how u could run these new forks dry. hahah yeah right. when i got mine they were dry and lasted about 2 runs before the seals were rubbing off on the stanchions. awesome. I feel bad for people who bought these.

in your 17 enlightening ridemonkey post thus far you have managed to tell us the following:

that you ride whister (OMG, no way)

your sunday cracked at the headtube on two separate occasions and on two different frames, and that they break at the seat tube as well, and you wear hardware out in a month

that you blew up your vivid on day three (in three seperate threads, wow)... and that somehow this was iron horses fault for specing it, got the vivid replaced with a new one and blew it up as well.... and that "you know guys in whistler that have to rebuild them every day"... and "you talked to your buddy at rock shox who told you they were crap and not to ride one"

you blew up a 2010 boxxer that was supposedly that way out of the box, and complained sram was useless

somehow got your fork replaced with another 2010 which now you are saying is crap

and on another thread you are talking about cracking one of the new evils

me thinks any advice from you is pretty much useless since apparently you are a hack... or just full of BS trying to stir the pot a bit on here.

oster_oops:

mattmatt86 · May 31, 2009

Sick Burn!!!

RUFUS · May 31, 2009

Hahahahahaha

davetrump said:
in your 17 enlightening ridemonkey post thus far you have managed to tell us the following:

that you ride whister (OMG, no way)

your sunday cracked at the headtube on two separate occasions and on two different frames

that you blew up your vivid on day three... and that somehow this was iron horses fault for specing it

you blew up a 2010 boxxer that was supposedly that way out of the box, and complained sram was useless

somehow got your fork replaced with another 2010 which now you are saying is crap

and on another thread you are talking about cracking one of the new evils

me thinks any advice from you is pretty much useless since apparently you are a hack... or just full of BS trying to stir the pot a bit on here.

oster_oops:

northernstyle · May 31, 2009

davetrump said:
in your 17 enlightening ridemonkey post thus far you have managed to tell us the following:

that you ride whister (OMG, no way)

your sunday cracked at the headtube on two separate occasions and on two different frames

that you blew up your vivid on day three... and that somehow this was iron horses fault for specing it

you blew up a 2010 boxxer that was supposedly that way out of the box, and complained sram was useless

somehow got your fork replaced with another 2010 which now you are saying is crap

and on another thread you are talking about cracking one of the new evils

me thinks any advice from you is pretty much useless since apparently you are a hack... or just full of BS trying to stir the pot a bit on here.

oster_oops:

Cool think what you want dude. I am just shedding some light on how these products hold up when ridden hard. The products I speak of are not all mine, some are from my friends who also ride everyday. Its really easy for someone to say how well a product works when they take it out and do 8-9 laps on it every weekend and get it re-built every month.

Make you a deal you can keep spreading sunshine on all the awesome products out there and how well they work when you arent riding them.

And Ill keep sharing the weaknesses of the all the compenents I am riding on day in and day out
Sounds good???

I am not saying sram in paticular is cr@p . Every product breaks, I am just less than happy with the overal QC out of the factory and was really hoping for something better. I know they are capable of it .

davetrump · May 31, 2009

northernstyle said:
Make you a deal you can keep spreading sunshine on all the awesome products out there and how well they work when you arent riding them.

And Ill keep sharing the weaknesses of the all the compenents I am riding on day in and day out
Sounds good???

once again.... you have no idea what (or in this case who) you are talking about, and really should get your fact straight before spraying more BS on the internet

maybe www.pinkbike.com will listen to ya :banghead:

RUFUS · May 31, 2009

I'll give you $750 shipped for it.

northernstyle said:
Cool think what you want dude. I am just shedding some light on how these products hold up when ridden hard. The products I speak of are not all mine, some are from my friends who also ride everyday. Its really easy for someone to say how well a product works when they take it out and do 8-9 laps on it every weekend and get it re-built every month.

Make you a deal you can keep spreading sunshine on all the awesome products out there and how well they work when you arent riding them.

And Ill keep sharing the weaknesses of the all the compenents I am riding on day in and day out
Sounds good???

I am not saying sram in paticular is cr@p . Every product breaks, I am just less than happy with the overal QC out of the factory and was really hoping for something better. I know they are capable of it .

SofaKing · May 31, 2009

northernstyle said:
Page 5 of the 2010 boxxer service manual clearly states 40ml in the spring side. Might work better with the right amount of oil,no?

slowmtb · May 31, 2009

SofaKing said:
Page 5 of the 2010 boxxer service manual clearly states 40ml in the spring side. Might work better with the right amount of oil,no?

Apparently, earlier on the quoted volume was 10ml - Sram appears to have had a re think on this.

At the moment - the whole 2010 Boxxer thing is way up in the air. The RS brigade will tell you otherwise of course - davetrump will be along shortly LOL

It is looking as though Sram have some issues to sort out - everyone who has experienced faults with their forks needs to contact Sram / RS so they can evaluate the situation ( if one even exists in the first place ).

davep · Jun 1, 2009

uncle-mofo said:
I'm a firm believer in the older open bath 888s to be the ultimate DH fork unless you're racing at the absolute highest level. I've changed the oil in my 05 888 once in two years and it didn't really need it I just thought I should. The oil in the compression side was perfect and the rebound side was just a tiny bit dirty. That's pretty damn good in my opinion.

late respponse, sorry. I do agree with you that the older simple 888s had their place and benefits (huge tollerance in oil volume, viscosity, quality and contamination)...but they also had some serious issues.

THe damper was marginally funtional at best, and only if you purchased aftermarket parts....without the add ons, the fork was a non-damped spring, with an adjustable additional ramping spring for B/O prevention.

I would HIGHLY suggest changing your oil more often. THe rebound side of my '05 (and every one I knew back then) was contaminated (black opaque with metalic particles in the oil) with only a single resort weekend of riding. The contamination is from the super cheap non-coated internals grinding themselves to dust.....that kind of contamination would plug any fork with modern valving.

davep · Jun 1, 2009

slowmtb said:
Apparently, earlier on the quoted volume was 10ml - Sram appears to have had a re think on this.

Sram did not change or rethink anything at all, just misunderstanding combined with reading comprehension here on this board.....the correct oil volumes for the TEAM spring side (40ml) were posted by SamB as per Boobar's (product manager for Boxxer, totem, tyric, etc and Blackbox IIRC) instructions.

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3224332&postcount=44

Kntr · Jun 1, 2009

Whistler really is a testing ground for reliablity and maintenance issues. One week in Whistler can equal the same amount of a year of riding for some people.

who's holdn out for new boxxer?

Chimp

Turbo Monkey

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Danced with A, attacked by C, fired by D.

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220# bag of hacktastic

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e-douche of the year

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