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Nationalized Health Care means people like Stephen Hawking would be killed

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
When I first got here I used to think it was because they ate better ( which they do) and because of some random Asian factor that was unknown to me. But as I've lived here longer, coming up for 13 years in October, I realise it's because they look after the cents and the dollars look after themselves. It's no accident, they get in early and they get everyone. It works. Use it.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
40,315
16,769
Riding the baggage carousel.
When I first got here I used to think it was because they ate better ( which they do) and because of some random Asian factor that was unknown to me. But as I've lived here longer, coming up for 13 years in October, I realise it's because they look after the cents and the dollars look after themselves. It's no accident, they get in early and they get everyone. It works. Use it.
I'm Trying! But I'm surrounded by tinfoil hat wearing, glen beck watching, George Nory listening, Ayn Rand reading, McCarthiest Repulitard azzholes. You can't fly like an eagle when you run with turkeys.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
I'm Trying! But I'm surrounded by tinfoil hat wearing, glen beck watching, George Nory listening, Ayn Rand reading, McCarthiest Repulitard azzholes. You can't fly like an eagle when you run with turkeys.
I know mate, it's as hard as hell, I go back home every Christmas and I put on 3 kilos without even trying. My kids are born and bred Japanese but ask them what they like about Australia and it's the food first, second and third. They gorge themselves ( I let them, they're on holidays too) but there's no doubt the Western diet is for the most part pretty crap. Here, I go to the supermarket and the fish, fruit and veg etc section is 5 times the size of the frozen food, Froot Loops section. They aren't scared of a drink or a smoke here but for the most part they look after themselves. It's worth investigating.
 

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,196
4
My boy was having headaches. I reckon he was malingering but the missus said let's take him to the quack just in case. The quack had a look and said I don't reckon it's anything bad but let's get him an MRI just in case. So they zapped him and after the doc said no problems, 6000 yen ($60 in your money). I just turned 40 so I had a full physical for 2900 yen, piss, blood, pooh, barium, lung X-Ray, the works. I'm working apparently as the results are back in and the only problem is the liver. That bastard was completely normal so obviously I haven't punished it enough so I'll be working on that. The Japanese are thinking, we'll spend it now so that we'll get it early, seems sensible to me, no cunt lives longer than these bastards so they must be doing something right. So why isn't anyone comparing what these Japs do?
I just want to point out that Japanese healthcare is cheap, but it's also losing money. There was a big PBS special where they examined different counties and how their healthcare systems work. I have to say that the one thing that amazes me about the "death panel" scare is that currently, if you have insurance, a company determines whether it is good for the bottom line to keep you alive....they have a strong incentive to deny care.
 

Evil Sylvain

Monkey
Feb 27, 2006
181
1
Montreal, QC, Canada
The real difference between private and public health care is that private means the decision-making process is "private".
Public decisions will be a more open process.
Indeed. The decision to go to war in Iraq was very open. All subsidies to all interest groups are very open decisions. You learn about it after the fact in the media.

The difference between public and private is that politicians will lie openly to sell you their schemes knowing very well that people tend to forget within six months or so of the scheme being revealed for what it is - a sham.

While the private sector (publicly traded co.) doesn't have to tell the public (yet they issue quarterly fiscal results) but if you are a shareholder you can still have a say in the decision making process. And one should not forget that "private" businesses in the US are not only mega-corporations.
http://economics.about.com/od/smallbigbusiness/a/us_business.htm
"Fully 99 percent of all independent enterprises in the country employ fewer than 500 people. "

Between elections you have no say in what the gvt does. But if you can muster enough people you may sway some decisions, and money, one way or another. And usually it is for the benefit of a minority group - not for the population as a whole. (for example ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Sugar_Program)
This is a perfect example of gvt interference that benefits a small group, the sugar industry, at the expense of the whole population because it's keeping the sugar prices high for all US citizens - rich and poor alike. The gvt is therefore directly making the rich (US sugar producers) richer while keeping the poor poorer and in poorer health.

I have yet to read why the cost of health care in the US is so high as of today. Most of the time I see the private sector being blamed. It's hardly believable that in a truly free market prices for health insurance, medical services and pharmaceutics would be so high when the price of goods and services fall over time in a free market or does not increase much (inflation adjusted). And we can notice this happen over a short lapse of time for the prices of TV sets for example. HD TV sets prices are going down, not up, due to better manufacturing processes and higher demand. Since the Canadian gvt opened up the market for telephone services my phone bill has decreased. I have never received so many good offers to either go to Rogers or Bell (I shift between both since they always give free months, free long distance within the province and so on) due to increase competitivity. Better manufacturing processes and competition are only possible in a free market.

I would then tend to believe that the reason why the health care cost in the US is so high is directly related to gvt intereference as in the sugar producers example.

About insurance - an insurance by definition is supposed to cover a person against the unexpected.
A promise of compensation for specific potential future losses in exchange for a periodic payment. Insurance is designed to protect the financial well-being of an individual, company or other entity in the case of unexpected loss.
A smoker getting cancer is not totally unexpected. Breaking a bone going downhill on a bike is not totally unexpected (and I do DH). I know very well that if I would not have (almost) total coverage by the gvt I would have to save money in case I hurt myself practicing MTB (and I do anyway because I don't want to have to wait months for heart surgery or cancer treatment if this happens). I am conscious of the risks and that this would probably mean higher insurance premiums if I had to have my own private insurance.

Getting hurt in a car accident when it's not your fault is unexpected. The chairlift breaking and you falling and getting hurt is unexpected.

I am also conscious that some are not fortunate enough to afford health care insurance. I don't mind paying for them through income taxes. But I would rather give directly to charities. And although it's a socialized health system here I nevertheless do. I give to the two closest hospitals near to my home each year. There is a direct relationship in my opinion between Quebec being the cheapest province when it comes to charity as we are the most taxed because it is the most "socialized" province.
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/newsandevents/news/5117.aspx
This can be an example of a long term effect that is not seen when making decisions that influence public policy, in this case, being a more socialist state. Public decisions are made for programs and projects that are perceived as having an immediate impact.

The system in Japan has the same problems as in Canada:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Japan
The system has been troubled with excessive paperwork, assembly-line care for out-patients (because few facilities made appointments), over medication, and abuse of the system because of apparent low out-of-pocket expenses to patients. Another problem is an uneven distribution of health personnel, with rural areas favored over cities.
No wonder it is losing money like here. And because it is losing money:

More than 14,000 emergency patients were rejected at least three times by Japanese hospitals before getting treatment in 2007, according to the latest government survey. In the worst case, a woman in her 70s with a breathing problem was rejected 49 times in Tokyo.
You get what you pay for.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Explain, if you would, how a good that has large asymmetrical information, no substitutes, is very inelastic and is a classic example of a market failure will work under a free market.

I can never get that explained to me...
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
I have yet to read why the cost of health care in the US is so high as of today.
Seriously? Are you actively trying not to find out?


Aside from the fact that the world around you is saturated with the answer, what would compel you to even post in this thread before knowing anywhere from 3-6 answers to that question?
 

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,196
4
Ramblings
You point out that 14k were denied care in Japan....you do realize we have around 48 million uninsured, right? We currently have universal healthcare, the question is whether everyone pays into it or not...you can go to any emergency room in the US and regardless of your ability to pay they are required to treat you. If we fail to solve the issues with healthcare now, we will see the collapse of our emergency care system. Already hospitals are closing ERs because they are a losing proposition. The local hospital here has long waits and is getting stiffed on many of the bills from the ER. If they choose to close their ER, we wouldn't have an ER in Salem. Free market innovation isn't going to solve that issue.
 

Evil Sylvain

Monkey
Feb 27, 2006
181
1
Montreal, QC, Canada
@Silver: what is the "good" that is an example of market failure?

@Ohio: Yes but I should have pointed out "within this forum" although I admit I have not read every single posts here. But what I read is people complaining about their own issues not necessarily about the system at large.

Regarding that specific topic from what I have read the increase of public hospitals at the detriment of privates ones, uninsured being treated for nothing (including illegal immigrants) and Medicare are, amongst others, probably to blame for the ever increasing costs of the health care system in the US.

http://www.marketmed.org/medicare.asp?fmmfont=fontsml
The Medicare program, which provides health care for the elderly, was enacted into law in 1965. To overcome opposition in the medical community to its passage, the government agreed to pay whatever costs hospitals and doctors incurred, including depreciation on hospital assets. The blank check handed to the medical industry with the passage of Medicare helped fuel a rapid expansion of health care consumption.
@kidwoo: Yes but what connection do you make with that quoted text of mine?

@ire: Yes, I am aware of the 48M myth. I agree there can be millions of americans who are uninsured in a population of 300M. I tend to doubt that there is as much as 48 millions though.
http://reason.tv/video/show/get-some
“Of people currently classified as uninsured, a conservative estimate says about 45 percent of them would be able to get health insurance right now if they wanted it,” says economist Glen Whitman.
And I did not imply "innovation" when I mentioned "free market". What I meant is individuals freely and voluntarily engaging in a transaction without gvt interferences. To be able to achieve that we need to have choices, not less. Government restrict the choices we have.

I do think that a free market would actually help the specific case you described by creating more demand that would need to be met with more insurance companies and the competition would lower insurance costs and that would allow more people to get covered by an insurance plan.

And as much as I don't like gvt intervention I don't rule out the possibility that a law, as opposed to dishing out more money for entitlements, could be enacted to either make it mandatory for people to have medical saving accounts (instead of paying incomes taxes to the government you put money into an account that can only be used to cover medical bills) or make it mandatory to have private insurance for example.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
@kidwoo: Yes but what connection do you make with that quoted text of mine?
The high costs of health care here are because most of it gets funded by for profit companies. Not only are profits kept and held but cost cutting measures often lead to things like litigation, subsequent insurance costs, and then of course dealing with illness once it gets way the hell out of control. It doesn't have jack to do with government regulation.

You really don't know these things?
 

Evil Sylvain

Monkey
Feb 27, 2006
181
1
Montreal, QC, Canada
The high costs of health care here are because most of it gets funded by for profit companies.
Medicare (16% of the federal budget) and Medicaid are federal programs funded by the federal gvt.

Not only are profits kept and held
Nope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States
However, the revenues generated from these high healthcare costs have encouraged substantial investment: the United States dominates the biopharmaceutical field, accounting for three quarters of the world’s biotechnology revenues and spending in research and development.[7] In addition, the U.S. produces more new pharmaceuticals, medical devices, and affiliated biotechnology than any other country, or the Western European nations combined.[7][8][9][10]
but cost cutting measures often lead to things like litigation, subsequent insurance costs, and then of course dealing with illness once it gets way the hell out of control. It doesn't have jack to do with government regulation.
One example:
How the Tax Code Distorts Health Care
http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb-0505-23.pdf
Government is the one who taxes. Again, it has everything to do with the government.

It's kind of strange. You (actually myself included) are getting screwed over and over by governments, right, left, republican or democrat and you still believe (I don't anymore though). This faith is awesome but misguided. Best of luck.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
You just said 'nope' that profits aren't kept.


Do you have a head injury?


Where the **** does this come from? Santa claus?


http://sickforprofit.com/ceos/

http://www.healthreformwatch.com/2009/05/20/health-insurance-ceos-total-compensation-in-2008/


It's kind of strange. You (actually myself included) are getting screwed over and over by governments, right, left, republican or democrat and you still believe (I don't anymore though). This faith is awesome but misguided. Best of luck.
The only thing strange is just how far that ronald reagan action figure must be lodged up your heinie.
 
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Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
I would say this is a service but it's unimportant. But I don't see where it is a classic example of market failure when it has so much government interferences. If the gvt has his imprints on the healthcare services, and it has, then it cannot be a free market.
:rofl:

By that logic, we should try communism, because it's never really been tried, and therefore has never failed...