moto for downhill

If you have money or love to work on engines get a 4-stroke. They are easier to ride and stall less often in the tech.

Otherwise get a 2-stroke. They are cheaper to buy and maintain. I love my KTM 200 2-stroke. Its a wild high-strung ride, but is so light and maneuverable.

Here is a video of 3 DHers riding dirt bikes. We each just got in moto last year. None of had ridden before either.

http://www.vimeo.com/4135770

I found myself in the same predicament about a month ago. I found a 2 stroke ktm 144sx really cheap brand new.

When I've asked this Q of experienced moto riders who also ride a bit of DH, I've been told to get a KTM 200 EXC, a used one from a few years back, for good moto ride training.

250 4stroke

KTM 250SXF is a good bike.

I have over 200 hours on mine with only the pistons being changed at every 100 hours. to someone that doesn't race MX, that may sound like a lot. However, Honda recommends every 20 hours. Most 2 strokes are supposed to changes every 20 hours too. You will proably have people on here tell you that they don't rebuild that often either. That said, I swapped pistons every 100 hours even though they were visually good because blowing up an engine on a 75' double means you are in the hospital. If you just trail ride, worst case your pushing it out.

I currently ride my 450 (2008 KTM 450SXF) almost all the time. It has the power to jump anything with very little run up and is easier to trail ride. I weigh 200 so the extra power is nice. It's also much quieter since I can choke the exhaust down without losing too much power.

If I were to ride what Doug (profro) does every day, I would get a KTM 200 since it is lighter to carry over logs and masive boulders. BTW: I need to bring my MX bike down soon.

Bring it Chris.

However, I tallied up my hours and I think I have close to 200 hours on my top end.

On a KTM 380 2T right now. I have it set up with a Rekluse autoclutch and the rear brake is where the clutch normally is. That biotch has so damn much power I never find myself wanting the clutch. The short version of that is: it never stalls, and it has the same cockpit controls as my DH bike plus a throttle.

Yes, it helps. In basically every way. Going from one to the other will require a few minutes of adjustment because you have to time corners a tiny bit different to get the exit speed you want.

I'm going to be getting a GasGas 300 2T here pretty soon.

At 5'8, I'd look out for a KTM 200 of some kind. The wheelbase and seat height is just slightly shorter than the 250/300 chassis, and they super versatile, and cheap/easy to own.

Start with a 250 4 stroke, it will take you a while to grow into it and you will learn/make all your mistakes early on. once you get to the point where your 250 is "not enough" throttle you could move up in CC's

my fist bike back in the day was a 125. I am now riding a XR650R and it is a hoot.

with a small bike (250) you can learn to fling it and be nimble but still rail berms and single tracks.

dont waste money on gadgets and mods for the moto since you will hardly outgrow the stock bike for some time.

I would recommend a small bore 2 stroke like the ktm 200 or 125 mx,

I ride a RM 125, its like DH bike with a engine and the lack of engine braking is awesome on the down hills, this is where for me 4 strokes suck.

But 125s are not the easiest to ride for newbies.

i started on a ghetto xr100, moved to a yz250f(awesome trail bike) now rockin a honda crf 450 and it railllllsssssss, four stroke's are the ****, 2strokes don't have the torque and its either on or off regarding power

gonefirefightin said:

Start with a 250 4 stroke, it will take you a while to grow into it and you will learn/make all your mistakes early on. once you get to the point where your 250 is "not enough" throttle you could move up in CC's

my fist bike back in the day was a 125. I am now riding a XR650R and it is a hoot.

with a small bike (250) you can learn to fling it and be nimble but still rail berms and single tracks.

dont waste money on gadgets and mods for the moto since you will hardly outgrow the stock bike for some time.

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Ditto, my buddy that i ride with has an xr 650 and that thing is nasssssty, props dude if you can ride that thing proper, beast

zdubyadubya said:

... I finally took up my friends offer of going riding with him on some backcountry, techie type ride... Also, I am 5'8", 150lbs.

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What bike did you ride and how did it feel? Also, what kind of trails do you have near you to ride?

I'm 5'8"/180 and owned a KTM 250 EXC (4 stroke) a few years back, on open trails it was fun but most the trails we have around me in the greater Metro Boston area are very tight/twisty singletrack and very technical. The KTM was over my head though the 4-stroke power is forgiving on climbs, never stalled. I found myself riding my wife's TTR-125L more since it was 80 lbs lighter and extremely nimble even though it severely lacks power but on some of the really tight stuff I swear I could ride twice as fast as the KTM.

4-Strokes are also heavier, the lighter ones (ie CRF250R) require more $$$ maint than any 2 stroke. The heavier ones, like my 250EXC and my buddies older WR250F are work horses and just keep running, I'm sure that XR650 gonefirefightin has doesn't need a ton of engine work either.

Oh to be young again, I went through all of this stuff 7 or 8 years ago when I was racing a lot. Now all the Dirt Bikes are gone and even my DHR too. I only get to ride my RFX 2-3 times a year downhill but it's still a blast. I'm living vicariously through all of you.

Best of luck, I say start small and really enjoy it then upgrade. The KTM 250 was too big and too $$$ a bike for me to start on. Looking back maybe I should have bought 2 TTR-125L

If you don't think you'll be jumping, one of the 250 4-stroke trail bikes like the WR250 are pretty much maintenance free (more expensive than a 2T, but MUCH longer maintenance intervales), manageable weight, and plenty of power to scare yourself until you get good. You can pick up a decent used one for $3k.

I really cant believe that anybody likes ktms. They still dont use a linkage on the rear shock so they just feel like ****. The motors are hugely powerful but if you break something they are expensive as ****. And two strok vs. four stroke... really? I have a 2009 crf 250 and a 2007 crf 450 and neither has ever had any engine problems. I race once a month in the summer and Im at the track every other weekend. Plus woods riding every weekend. There is a reason that companies arent making two strokes anymore.

If you want a great bike that will last and be fun to ride, go with any of the big four... honda, kawasaki, suzuki or yamaha 250 four stroke.

freeridefool said:

I really cant believe that anybody likes ktms. They still dont use a linkage on the rear shock so they just feel like ****. The motors are hugely powerful but if you break something they are expensive as ****. And two strok vs. four stroke... really? I have a 2009 crf 250 and a 2007 crf 450 and neither has ever had any engine problems. I race once a month in the summer and Im at the track every other weekend. Plus woods riding every weekend. There is a reason that companies arent making two strokes anymore.

If you want a great bike that will last and be fun to ride, go with any of the big four... honda, kawasaki, suzuki or yamaha 250 four stroke.

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Spoken like a true idiot.

A Japanese 250 four-stroke would be the absolute BOTTOM of my list of things to get, especially for offroad. Slow, heavy, gutlesss, and expensive. Where do I sign up? A KTM 2 stroke, despite the suspension, is an EXCELLENT bike to own.

Actually the ****ty rear end feel on them has very little to do with the lack of a linkage, and more to do with a really extreme and un-polished rear damper design. If you ever rode one with an aftermarket rear shock on it, you'd know this.

Companies are not making 2 strokes as much anymore because of tighter EPA restrictions in the US. They are still hugely popular in other countries.

If you REALLY think 2 strokes are done for, think about this: KTM makes the fastest stock 450 and their 4 stroke motors are by far the easiest to do basic maintenance on. They also make the 505 and the 530 and their 250f wins offroad shootouts for that class all the time. Do you know what their #1 selling/requested bike was for '08 and '09 by a landslide? The '08 300 XC-W(e) and the '09 300 XC.

freeridefool said:

I really cant believe that anybody likes ktms. They still dont use a linkage on the rear shock so they just feel like ****. The motors are hugely powerful but if you break something they are expensive as ****. And two strok vs. four stroke... really? I have a 2009 crf 250 and a 2007 crf 450 and neither has ever had any engine problems. I race once a month in the summer and Im at the track every other weekend. Plus woods riding every weekend. There is a reason that companies arent making two strokes anymore.

If you want a great bike that will last and be fun to ride, go with any of the big four... honda, kawasaki, suzuki or yamaha 250 four stroke.

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uh, ktm's are just fine without the linkage. Why do you think it needs one? Did you ride one long enough to get the suspension set up properly?

KTM parts: at my local shop, they are less expensive. Furthermore, the bike comes with parts that people put on the Japan bikes like Renthal bars.

I have owned both Yamahas and KTMs and have ridden just about everything else as my buddies buy new bikes every year and I haven't ever wanted to switch back t a non KTM. I also have an awesome shop that knows everything about every KTM and stocks every part so that helps to.

ChrisKring said:

uh, ktm's are just fine without the linkage. Why do you think it needs one? Did you ride one long enough to get the suspension set up properly?

KTM parts: at my local shop, they are less expensive. Furthermore, the bike comes with parts that people put on the Japan bikes like Renthal bars.

I have owned both Yamahas and KTMs and have ridden just about everything else as my buddies buy new bikes every year and I haven't ever wanted to switch back t a non KTM. I also have an awesome shop that knows everything about every KTM and stocks every part so that helps to.

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Well, KTM is going to a linkage for 2011, but I sorta hope they dump the WP stuff. It's never been that impressive.

If you like the KTM, check out a GasGas. VERY impressive bikes.

Hacktastic said:

Spoken like a true idiot.

A Japanese 250 four-stroke would be the absolute BOTTOM of my list of things to get, especially for offroad. Slow, heavy, gutlesss, and expensive. Where do I sign up? A KTM 2 stroke, despite the suspension, is an EXCELLENT bike to own.

Actually the ****ty rear end feel on them has very little to do with the lack of a linkage, and more to do with a really extreme and un-polished rear damper design. If you ever rode one with an aftermarket rear shock on it, you'd know this.

Companies are not making 2 strokes as much anymore because of tighter EPA restrictions in the US. They are still hugely popular in other countries.

If you REALLY think 2 strokes are done for, think about this: KTM makes the fastest stock 450 and their 4 stroke motors are by far the easiest to do basic maintenance on. They also make the 505 and the 530 and their 250f wins offroad shootouts for that class all the time. Do you know what their #1 selling/requested bike was for '08 and '09 by a landslide? The '08 300 XC-W(e) and the '09 300 XC.

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Actually I ride a factory ktm 450 quite often... My roommate is a sponsered ktm rider and got a factory bike for cheap. So I know what Im talking about. No doubt that the ktm's engine is the ****. But aside from that and the excell rims and nice parts that go along with it, ktm's arnt worth the money. Nowdays a four stroke is comparable in weight to its two stroke counterpart. Five years ago I had all two strokes. But they cant compare in power anymore.

I would love to get a chance to ride a service honda cr500. But if your looking for a great all around bike you just cant beat the Jap 250's. I prefer my 450 for the power but thats all preference.

I loathe 4 strokes

At full retail, KTM's are in no way worth the money. But who the hell buys a new dirt bike anyway? Do you really want to be making payments on something you're going to hammer?

Set up a modern 4 stroke and a modern 2 stroke for the exact same purposes - offroad or track. They will NOT be anywhere near the same weight. An offroad set up 2 stroke with all the protective gear and a bigger tank and ultra-HD tubes and tires will probably be about the same weight as a track set up 4 stroke with none of that. Apples to oranges.

CR500's were retarded. If anything, the Service KX500 would be the granddaddy of modern big bore 2 strokes since it was a powervalve engine and had some hope of being controlled.

I DARE you to ride my 380 back to back with a 450 and say that 2 strokes can't compare in power. I've had pro desert guys go ride the bike around not expecting much and they come back shaking. It is faster, lighter, makes better power, corners better, and actually gets better range than an offroad 450 with the same tank - it just isn't working half as hard.

I bought a Husqvarna WR125. Its super light, suspension's great and the 125 is quick enough for me. I wouldn't go Husky in your case though, they're pretty tall for a novice rider.

Not sure how you say a 4T is the same weight as a 2T? My Husky is 98kg dry, whereas the equivalent WR250F or whatever is about 114kg.

My best advice is if you are riding trails do yourself a favour and don't buy a MX bike. They are too stiff and the power curves are too abrupt for good grip over roots and rocks.

First of all, moto is AMAZINGLY FUN and I love going out to the track/trails when I'm not training for DH races.

My personal bike is a 2005 CRF 250R. It was the first motorcycle I ever owned (besides a pit bike) and I would totally suggest it for your first bike. As far as maintnence, It's been pretty care free besides oil changes, valve adjustments (due for it's first one this weekend) and brake pads. It does not have too much or too little power and is perfect for a trail or track. Mine is set up primarily for tracks since we have a national caliber track 30min. away.
Now, I want a CRF 450R after riding moto for a year. Don't worry, progressing is pretty easy in moto and your DH skills will transfer over and visa versa so it's excelent cross training! In fact, I've seen a few top Pro DH racers at our local tracks before.

Oh and lastly, buy a Honda...PLEASE!!!

I ride a buddies Cr-250 2 stroke some, and can relate to those thats say the 2 strokes are hard to ride...on-off switches. I dream of buying a new YZ-250F......killer bike period.

Disregard the dickwavers and their arguments to needing 450's 500's etc... at your size a two stroke 125 will be plenty to learn on and scare ya at the same time. If you don't have a pick-up or trailer, you should look at a Dual sport like a DR, DRZ, XR, KLR or my personal ride, an 08 WR 250r. I love having the plated dirtbike. fire road to single track to asphalt is a good way to get around. Plus I get the best parking on campus.

Lots of guys are into the 2 stroke thing. Especially old timers who long for the days of 2 stroke dominance. But for my money...a new fuel injected 450 is the way to go. I hate fiddling with my carb, or jetting for different elevations. If you can get the cash, do that. Personally I ran a crf450 with a rekluse clutch. I lied and cheated my way into getting a street plate for it too. No, I didn't do the dot tires or anything. But I could connect desert riding spots in Ca that others had to load up to do. Everyone told me it was too much power for a beginner mx rider. But I figured.......I was able to handle my modded crf 50. Can't be much different....right?

freeridefool said:

I really cant believe that anybody likes ktms. They still dont use a linkage on the rear shock so they just feel like ****. The motors are hugely powerful . And two strok vs. four stroke... really? I have a 2009 crf 250 and a 2007 crf 450 and neither has ever had any engine problems. I race once a month in the summer and Im at the track every other weekend. Plus woods riding every weekend. There is a reason that companies arent making two strokes anymore.

If you want a great bike that will last and be fun to ride, go with any of the big four... honda, kawasaki, suzuki or yamaha 250 four stroke.

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WOW you dont have a clue do you....

there is a reason why KTM's rule the off road market and you are missing the boat. Two strokes are fun to ride cheap and easy to maintain. There is a reason why KTM is still making them, they are great in the woods. Put an hour meter on either one of those Honda's that you mentioned and let us know how long they last before need valves. The last bike I would tell someone to get that wants to get into riding off road would be a Jap 250. Highest maintenance bike you could buy that is suspended way to stiff and geared way to high to ride off road for a beginner.

P.S. My 05 KTM525 has 315hrs 6359 miles of single track and the motor has never been apart. Id love to see a jap race bike to that!

kdx220 cheap easy to ride good in the woods, has a 5sp and a lighting coil so could potentially plate it
xr250 would be good for a 4 stroke, real easy to ride and bored out to 280 they get it. also can be plated somewhat easily, has a 6sp
do yourself a favor and get something you can put a plate on(or already done)

all my motos are plated, kinda hard to do on some but very good idea


here is the 650r

no offense but XR250's are overpriced on the used market and pretty much suck even for trail riding. I have traded my 450sxf on the trail with my buddies XR250. The power was to low, the gearing was wack (1st was too low with too much spread to 2nd) and the fork was flimsy. Furthermore, it was so heavy that I couldn't throw it around. If your looking for something similar to DH, an XR is not the answer.

The positives are that they run forever with no maintance.

maybe this will interest You :

http://www.velovert.com/Information_VTT/2046/Zumbi-met-le-turbo-
http://www.dh-zone.com/News/1134.html

cheers!

Getting into moto is rough, everyone gives you a bunch of advice stated as though it is absolute fact and it all conflicts. So here's mine.

Being in Columbia (I am from Catonsville originally), I'm guessing you are probably going to spend more time on the trails than the track. There is Budd's Creek as well as other tracks around though, so you may want to go try that out before you buy your own bike. Track riding will make a huge difference in your dh, and if you enjoy going really fast, the speeds are generally higher than on the trails. I'm a pretty diehard track guy as we can ride the track all year in CO, long after the trails are snowed in. Summer is the time for trails, and that's when I am on the dh bike. That said, trail riding is great as well, even on my grossly over-damped crf450. My advice would be to get a 250f. Two strokes have their pluses as well, but I think the 250 is simply the most forgiving bike to learn on. On the steep stuff on the trail, it is a lot easier to manage than the 125. My choice for a trail bike would be a 250 2 stroke, but that bike will punish for poor throttle control, which is unavoidable in your first year of riding, especially on rough trail.

That leaves you with a decision. You can buy a trail specific bike like the yamaha wr250 or the honda crf250x. These bikes, compared to their track ready counterparts, have heavier flywheels, more low-end grunt, more weight, headlights, kickstands, ect. The motocross models (yz250f, cr250f, ect) have light flywheels, no skidplates, no lights, less weight, and have higher strung motors, meaning they like to be reved higher to achieve peak power. The trail ready 250f is actually the one bike I don't have any time on, never even swung a leg over one. However, I have ridden the 450x compared to my 450r, and I hated it. The bike is huge, as it the wr450. For tight woods and windy turns, its a pig. That's why my choice would be a two stroke. For you though, I would suspect one of the motocross 250fs would be best. You are going to want to add a skid plate and a heavier flywheel, and crank your compression settings wide open on the suspension, but that is probably the most versatile bike you can get. And if you want to go to the track, you're ready for that too. As far as brands, here's the dummies guide as far as I can tell.

Yamaha- Bulletproof. The ride is very mellow and stable, to the point of seeming sluggish to some, and the motor has the least power by a few hp out of the box. Great beginners bike, should give you the least maintenence issues. Motor tunes up nicely with the usual mods like an exhaust, and is very smooth and predictable.

Honda- Known for having a few maintenence issues, depending on model year, do your research on this, all the info is out there. Handling and ride on the whole is right down the middle, not twitchy, but not a sled either, just normal. Have a bunch of friends on this bike, from an 05 to an 07, biggest repair for them is the 06 needed new valves and head work.

Kawasaki- Again, some maintenence issues, 06's tend to crack their engine cases which mine did, very expensive. 07 remedied the problem. Strong motors, great to turn, agresssive geometry, suffers a bit when it's rough and fast.

Suzuki- Dont know, no one I know rides them. I did ride a 06 450 for a while, it was a beast of a machine, tons of grunt and super sharp handling, pretty scary at speed.

KTM- As has been said, expensive to maintain. Engine repairs aside, for stuff like broken clutch levers you are looking at 80 bucks instead of 10. General consensus is good trail bikes, bad track bikes. Suspension is behind the others, which can be remedied with some tuning, but that's not something you're going too want to spend money on this early.

$80 for a clutch lever?? They might be a little bit more, but that seems kinda exaggerated...

I haven't broken a lever in a while though since I use barkbusters, so maybe it has quadrupled.

Hacktastic said:

$80 for a clutch lever?? They might be a little bit more, but that seems kinda exaggerated...

I haven't broken a lever in a while though since I use barkbusters, so maybe it has quadrupled.

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Agreed

I use bark busters as well and have never broken a lever. All the consumable parts like brake bads, rotors, wheel bearings, chain, sprockets, airfilters, oil filters, etc. are all the same as jap bikes. The parts that are more expensive to replace on a KTM like a clutch lever.....are only more expensive because they are that much better. KTM uses a hydro clutch that doesnt fade, feel never changes, with a nice light pull while the jap bikes use a cable. So yea, a lever may be more money, but its cause you are replacing a better part.

KTMs are not more expensive to maintain.

Go here. For me, this was the Ridemonkey of the moto world.

OB1 said:

Go here. For me, this was the Ridemonkey of the moto world.

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I am on there as well as gonefirefighting

www.ktmtalk.com Seems to have a lot less nonsense and a LOT more good info than TT does, though I use both of them. Met lots of great friends and riders through both sites.

KTMtalk alone is an excellent reason to own a KTM. Absolutely incredible resource. It's got a ton of useful info that applies to bikes besides KTM's too.

Hacktastic said:

www.ktmtalk.com Seems to have a lot less nonsense and a LOT more good info than TT does, though I use both of them. Met lots of great friends and riders through both sites.

KTMtalk alone is an excellent reason to own a KTM. Absolutely incredible resource. It's got a ton of useful info that applies to bikes besides KTM's too.

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I got banned.......

Stinson said:

KTMs are not more expensive to maintain.

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I have a 2004 KTM 200 EXC and in one year I have had to:

-rear fender - $50 from the KTM shop
-1 shroud - $24 from the KTM shop
-lots of wheel bearings at $25 a set
-new grips - $15 from KTM shop
-1 spark plug don't remember the price
-a couple sets of Michelins at $140 a set
-1 hiem joint at $65 from KTM shop
-2 rear sprockets
-2 chains
-4 front sprockets
-couple sets of brake pads

Like I said I have close to 200 hours and never been in the engine or transmission. However since its been super wet all year I have been through a lot of bearings. I seriously doubt a jap bike would be any cheaper to maintain.

How are you going through that many wheel bearings and chains/sprockets in 200 hours?

BTW, the Heim joints last forever if you pack them really well with Maxima Marine Grease, and put a tube over the lower clevis of the shock.