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120+20mm does not equal 160-20mm. Or, more to a bike than how much travel it has.

punkassean

Turbo Monkey
Feb 3, 2002
4,561
0
SC, CA
A few years ago 140mm bikes were the hot new thing. People gravitated towards these new bikes because on paper they were perfect, approaching downhill-worthy travel within the realm of cross country-capable weight. Seems perfect...on paper. Most of these bikes were existing 100-120mm platforms tweaked to get a bit more travel, think BlurXC v. BlurLT. Sounds great, right? In theory, yes. but in reality what you end up with is a top-heavy XC bike that neither descends nor climbs particularly well. Great for 'joe mountainbiker' who's been riding forever but seldom rides outside his comfort zone. For those times when he makes a bad line choice, the extra 20mm of travel might save the day but the rest of the time he's stuck with a noodly bike with too-tall a bottom bracket and sketchy XC geometry.

What if you're not 'joe mountainbiker' and you're more of a 'joe vet class ex DH pinner'? You just go for one of the MANY 160mm bikes, you know, the Nomads, Enduros and the like. Shifted even more towards DH performance but still 'capable' (such a broad-spectrum word, capable) of climbing. These bikes tend to have slightly better geometry and somewhat stiffer/burlier construction yet they still leave a lot to be desired for 'JVCEDHP' types.

My point is everybody seems to get hung up on certain figures, like travel numbers for example. 140mm was hot, anything with 140mm must be a great bike. Then everyone had to have 160mm. Well as it stands I think a lot of us are still not satisfied with the current crop of do-it-all bikes and yearn for something more...but not something with more travel. Instead of fixating on travel, I wish manufacturers would focus more on other, more pertinent things like geometry, construction, suspension design. All of which are MUCH more important. The bike I want to see on the market right now is more of a 160-20mm, as opposed to a 120+20mm. Heck maybe even a 180-40mm. I want a bike with somewhere around 5" of quality suspension, a fairly slack head angle (66-67*), a NICE LOW bottom bracket and decently sturdy build. Remember people, the more travel a bike has, the higher the BB HAS to be. Most of us would probably be better served in the handling dept by lower bottom brackets than more travel. I'm picking 5" as the magic number, although I remember a quote from Kirt Voreis back in one of Matt Collins' videos where he said something along the lines of there's not much you can't do on a good 4&4" bike. At the time Kirt was slaying various terrain on an Intense Tazer slalom bike. Considering not everyone has Kirt Voreis-like abilities, I'm saying 5-5.5" is probably about right for the average technically capable rider.

I've been looking for a frame that fits this bill for sometime now without much luck. In the past I've been known to run a 1" longer fork on a bike (to slacken the head angle) with pretty good results, so this is something I'm willing to consider doing again if need be. But there are some promising new bikes on the horizon such as the forthcoming Evil Sect that could be just about perfect as-is. Problem is I need a bike to ride between now and next season when that bike (and hopefully many others) become available. Anybody else in the same boat as me that's found the holy grail? I've searched and come up dry so any feedback is appreciated.

here are some of the bikes I've considered but am not 100% sold on.
Giant TranceX w/150mm fork (to slacken)
Corsair Marque (140-150mm fork)
BLT2 w/160mm fork (not too stoked on VPP2 tho)
Specialized SX w/140mm fork
2010 Stumpy w/150mm fork

discuss...
 

SkullCrack

Monkey
Sep 3, 2004
705
127
PNW
Here's what I'm currently riding. Sounds like what you are looking for.

Link to geo



Previously I had a Corsair Marque. Had so many problems with that frame I couldn't wait to get rid of it.
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,908
634
The new specialized enduro probably has a little too much travel for what you're looking for, but its all the geometry you want. The original ABP remedy was pretty solid at 150, but again, probably more then you were looking for. Maybe a specialized pitch?

That ventana looks like the sh1t.

And obviously the BR.
 

the diner

Monkey
Jun 19, 2006
184
0
Davidson, NC
Such a good point man...i went awhile without a DH bike cause i cracked the frame and had only my 05 Spesh SX to ride. I had a pike on the front and at 140mm the bike felt awesome. It was low, fast, nimble, light, and manualed like freakin crazy. I started to feel like i could do alot of the riding I enjoyed with that bike over my demo. The chainstay didnt hold up to the riding (that and somtimes im not that smooth), but warranty replaced it and there have been no problems since. I actually sold it to one of my friends and he loves the bike...and I miss it from time to time
 

marshalolson

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2006
1,770
519
just to add another iron to the fire:

yeti asr 5 w/ 140mm fork = 67 deg ha and 13.3 bb

not exactly the highest quality travel, but it works for sure.
plus there is a 135x12 rear axle option, which is awesome.

should be available early january.
 

davep

Turbo Monkey
Jan 7, 2005
3,276
0
seattle
I went though this a couple years ago when there were even fewer options. I went with a Turner 6 pack front triangle with an entire 5 spot rear end (bought that way directly from turner as a '5 pack'). This gives essentially a lower, slacker, shorter travel, slightly shorter CS 6 pack.

It is not perfect (nothing ever is, but mostly I would just like a little lower BB) but it works pretty well as my 'do everything that the DH bike won't' bike. With a Lyric on the front, I feel like I can go from jump/pump/4x type feel to agressive trail/lighter FR... With a swap of tires, it serves many different diciplines very well.

I think the biggest issue is simply sales numbers. For this to work, mfg want to make somthing that will sell to more than just DHers looking for a trial bike. Unfortunately there is still a large contingent of people who think that 5" trail bikes need 14+" bbs to be able to pedal over 'obstacles'. These same people are unfortunately very vocal..
 
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Banshee Rider

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2003
1,452
10
I'm just coming off a 3 year kick of riding these exact bikes. Turns out their really only fun if a. your xc trails are abnormally technical, b. your trails have long descents, and c. you're in good enough shape to ride pinned for the entire ride.

The Blur 4X with a 140 would be your bike, except they discontinued it. I'm coming off a Giant Reign with a 7.5x2.0 shock instead of 7.875x2.0. It sat at 13.0" and 67" static. My new area that I just moved to is not abnormally tech, and the trails are flat, so despite being able to ride pinned for the entire ride, the bike is more work than its worth. I'm going back to the trance x with a 140 for what its worth. I owned this bike in the past and thought it was alittle to steep for back home, but am realizing its a pretty good balance for my new area.
 

bdamschen

Turbo Monkey
Nov 28, 2005
3,377
156
Spreckels, CA
Been rocking a cannondale prophet for a while with a 140mm fork set in the 67* HA setting.
It's great.

It's getting old though, and looking for something to replace it has been hard. I think I finally found something though:

Intense Tracer in it's slacker setting should be good:

67.5 HA
1.5 HT
13.5" BB
17" CS
71.5 SA

Thinking about one with maybe a 36 Float set at 140 or 150 mm.

Hauer's bike looks fun:

 
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Hey Punk-

Why not have a builder custom build you one? That way you can name your game and pay and go play with exactly what you want.

Again, I guess I'm pointing to the Ventana since not many builders have the ability to go the custom build route for their customers.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
Hey Punk-

Why not have a builder custom build you one? That way you can name your game and pay and go play with exactly what you want.

Again, I guess I'm pointing to the Ventana since not many builders have the ability to go the custom build route for their customers.
If custom geo is an option I'd look at zumbi new mini-dh bike or some nicolai (they've got a great amount of models and offer custom geo on most of them)
 

NoUseForAName

Monkey
Mar 26, 2008
481
0
Hey Punk-

Why not have a builder custom build you one? That way you can name your game and pay and go play with exactly what you want.

Again, I guess I'm pointing to the Ventana since not many builders have the ability to go the custom build route for their customers.
Just talking today about this over on NSMB - Ventana back end combined with steel custom front end. Doesn't float my boat - but opens up options.
Get a decent (?matter of opinion) suspension platform and tweak the front ends geo to what you want. I think something like $2300 mentioned for a frame like this - pretty reasonable IMO.
Assuming Joe Vet knows what shizz he wants.
 

punkassean

Turbo Monkey
Feb 3, 2002
4,561
0
SC, CA
I've thought about custom for sure but my concerns with custom bikes are:

a) Typically take a lot longer
b) Heavier (due to less advanced production techniques available to small builders)
c) More prone to breaking (less R&D than large scale companies)
d) Much more expensive
 

davec113

Monkey
May 24, 2009
419
0
'09 Trek Remedy... 6.5 lb (frame w/shock), very stiff, very fast, and just rails turns. 67 ha, 13.8 bb. It comes with a 8" x 2.25" shock, you can put a 7.875 x 2.25 (or 2.0" stroke for a little less travel) on there to adjust the geo, or maybe use offset shock bushings. I'm pretty happy with the geo as-is though, it's a great bike. They're probably on closeout now too.

That Ventana looks pretty sweet, but pedaling uphill through rocky stuff might be tough with such a low bb???
 

Supa8

Monkey
May 3, 2002
493
0
Middle of MA
Riding an 09 SX with a RS Revelation set at 5.25". Way fun bike. Coming from my trusty 5 spot for the last 4 years I wanted something I could lower the fork travel and hit DS then rail the trails as well. Slacker, faster and climbs like a hyper three nutted goat which surprised me. Good stuff. Love my 5 spot but this bike is more fun.
 

joelsman

Turbo Monkey
Feb 1, 2002
1,369
0
B'ham
Banshee has a new bike coming out that is supposed to be a dher's trail bike, 5in travel, low and slack with their dual link suspension.
 

rosenamedpoop

Turbo Monkey
Feb 27, 2004
1,284
0
just Santa Cruz...
I don't know why you care Sean, do you even ride anymore...? :jester:
We miss you on wednesdays man.


On topic: I just built my new 6 Point today. 8.5 x 2.5 shock instead of the stock 8.75 x 2.5. I was on the same mission to find a legit DHers trail bike, til I found this thing. It feels... wow.

Geo (size LG with 36 fork & Minion 2.35" tires):

BB 13"
HA 66*
CS 17.1"
WB 44.5"






.
 

Ringer

Monkey
Mar 4, 2008
152
0
I don't know why you care Sean, do you even ride anymore...? :jester:
We miss you on wednesdays man.


On topic: I just built my new 6 Point today. 8.5 x 2.5 shock instead of the stock 8.75 x 2.5. I was on the same mission to find a legit DHers trail bike, til I found this thing. It feels... wow.

Geo (size LG with 36 fork & Minion 2.35" tires):

BB 13"
HA 66*
CS 17.1"
WB 44.5"






.

but you carry around a ton more weight in that 83mm bb and 150mm rear end
 

rosenamedpoop

Turbo Monkey
Feb 27, 2004
1,284
0
just Santa Cruz...
but you carry around a ton more weight in that 83mm bb and 150mm rear end


Haha... a ton huh? Not really.

It feels like a Sunday with less travel. So If I can have that feel, it's well worth the extra 1 pound over a comparably built-up Nomad to me.

The 83/150 with semi-through axle was absolutely a selling point for me. I can't abide by sacrificing stiffness to shed minimal weight. This really is a DHers trail bike.






.
 

Percy

Monkey
May 2, 2005
426
0
Christchurch NZ
Blah blah blah!

discuss...
I agree dude, the amount of travel is less important than geometry and quality of travel.:thumb:

Ive got an ASX with 150mm 36's, and its a little steep and a little tall in the BB for what I really want (though its still a damn fun bike, and its taken me 3 odd years to figure it out!), plus I never use the 7inch setting!

As a Fat Old Bugger DH Rider (I would say pinner, but I'd be lying!), I'd like a 13.5BB and a 66deg head angle, with about 150-160mm travel.
And I only say 160mm travel cos thats about the shortest travel 20mm axle'd fork out there, and I'd prefer balanced travel front to rear.:D
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,777
4,700
Champery, Switzerland
Sounds like this would work perfectly.







Those are 3 different i2i shocks with different shock mounts. The first one has a 200mm i2i shock giving 120mm of rear travel and a 66° HA and a 320mm bb height. The second one has a 215 mm i2i shock, 350mm bb height and a 66° HA and the third one has a 222mm i2i shock giving 160mm of travel, a 330mm bb height and a 65° HA. Looks like you could find your "holy grail" of setup with this frame.
 

Acadian

Born Again Newbie
Sep 5, 2001
714
2
Blah Blah and Blah
Haha... a ton huh? Not really.

It feels like a Sunday with less travel
.
you say that like it's a good thing

dunno about you, but on long epic rides with lots of climbing, the 83mm wide shell killed my knees. My 6Point is the only bike that gave me knee aches.

I had the same setup as you (with shorter shock) - was okay but it's the only bike I could almost dig the bashguard in the dirt while cornering...it was literally a bit too low.
 

weedkilla

Monkey
Jul 6, 2008
362
10
Weirdly the bike I've tried that fits the bill the closest is much cheaper than anything else mentioned - Specialized Pitch. Heavy spring in the pike or swap for 36 and nice and balanced. Money saved spent on a week away riding somewhere new.
 

Polandspring88

Superman
Mar 31, 2004
3,066
7
Broomfield, CO
I went though this a couple years ago when there were even fewer options. I went with a Turner 6 pack front triangle with an entire 5 spot rear end (bought that way directly from turner as a '5 pack'). This gives essentially a lower, slacker, shorter travel, slightly shorter CS 6 pack.

It is not perfect (nothing ever is, but mostly I would just like a little lower BB) but it works pretty well as my 'do everything that the DH bike won't' bike. With a Lyric on the front, I feel like I can go from jump/pump/4x type feel to agressive trail/lighter FR... With a swap of tires, it serves many different diciplines very well.

I think the biggest issue is simply sales numbers. For this to work, mfg want to make somthing that will sell to more than just DHers looking for a trial bike. Unfortunately there is still a large contingent of people who think that 5" trail bikes need 14+" bbs to be able to pedal over 'obstacles'. These same people are unfortunately very vocal..
Agreed. I have an 02 RFX with the 5" rockers and a 66SL set at 170mm on there. Currently has a 66* head angle and a bottom bracket thats a little over 14". Could stand to be a little lower, but dropping my fork down to something a little bit more reasonable would bring it under 14". Amazing bike.
 

in the trees

Turbo Monkey
May 19, 2003
1,210
1
NH
Banshee has a new bike coming out that is supposed to be a dher's trail bike, 5in travel, low and slack with their dual link suspension.
The "Spitfire" - it looks like it'll be a great bike!


Or, what about Covert. A little more travel, though and not sure about running it with a smaller i-to-i shock.
 
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4130biker

PM me about Tantrum Cycles!
May 24, 2007
3,884
448
I'd like a 13.5BB and a 66deg head angle, with about 150-160mm travel.
And I only say 160mm travel cos thats about the shortest travel 20mm axle'd fork out there, and I'd prefer balanced travel front to rear.:D
I just put an 8.5x2.5 shock on my 07' enduro, and it gives me a 13.5 bb and around a 66 hta. Almost feels a little too slack and I keep dialing down my talas a bit as a result, but it does ride good.
Anyway, 05-07 enduro's fit the bill and are tough little bikes. I like mine a lot.
 

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
2,287
854
coloRADo
A Commie Meta 4x has a stock 69.5* ha, but w/ the adjustable ha, you could make it 68.5*. Then w/ a longer fork and maybe more sag you could get it down to 67-66.

Just wondering....do you ever plan on climbing with this forthcoming bike? Don't you think such a slack angle would make it a little "floppy" on the ups? Especially technical and steep trails? When the going gets slow and up, it would be harder to keep the bike upright. But anyway, I'm with you.

Right now I run a commie meta 4 with a pike at full length and a little more sag to get it slacker. I have no idea what the HA is now, but It works great. And yes, my "xc" trails are quite techy, but short, so easy to pin all the way down. So I dig it.
 

punkassean

Turbo Monkey
Feb 3, 2002
4,561
0
SC, CA
as much as I do think the Pitch, Enduro or SX might be good options, Specialized isn't really an option for me for a couple of reasons. I'd much prefer a maestro or DW bike, or at least something along those lines. A buddy is gonna let me try his TranceX with a taller fork, I think that could be pretty dialed.
 

punkassean

Turbo Monkey
Feb 3, 2002
4,561
0
SC, CA
A Commie Meta 4x has a stock 69.5* ha, but w/ the adjustable ha, you could make it 68.5*. Then w/ a longer fork and maybe more sag you could get it down to 67-66.

Just wondering....do you ever plan on climbing with this forthcoming bike? Don't you think such a slack angle would make it a little "floppy" on the ups? Especially technical and steep trails? When the going gets slow and up, it would be harder to keep the bike upright. But anyway, I'm with you.

Right now I run a commie meta 4 with a pike at full length and a little more sag to get it slacker. I have no idea what the HA is now, but It works great. And yes, my "xc" trails are quite techy, but short, so easy to pin all the way down. So I dig it.
I definitely climb a lot. I'm accustomed to a slack-ish HA though and have no issues with that. I used to run TALAS forks for climbing but gave up on that and just run a 160mm fork. With a nice low bar position its all good.