Ghetto tubeless with Minion UST or 3C?

same question, just got UST rims and wonder what the best options are to run tubeless, can I just run stans in my normal tires or are UST tires worth the money?

I picked up 3C's again. Running them on 823's. They work fine, but leak air over time faster than true UST's. If Maxxis had Minion DHF 3c's in a UST bead, I'd be sold, but super tackys burn out too damn quick!
I ran 3C's tubeless with Stans strips on 729's years ago and had issues burping under 30psi.

I've ran through a few sets of 3Cs on 823s in the last year with absolutely no problems, always between 25-35 psi. I only had one set on long enough for the Stans to dry up, and when it did the 3Cs started to lose a little air.

Been running 3C minion and highrollers all season (and half of last) on 721s with stans strips with out a single issue (mich tires before that, I have no used a tube in 5 years).

IMO people that have problems simply run too little pressure (the old incorrect idea of tubeless = lower pressure). If I ran high 20s on high speed runs with anything smaller than a mich 2.8, I would be homeless due to rim purchases.

Run the recomended pressures (low to mid 30s), let the rubber compound do what it is designed to do, have tires that dont fold over in every corner....and you should be good!



P.S. PEDALS, damn it!!!!!

Can't help you on the ghetto bit but I have run 3C's on my DeeMax's for some time now without issue. Interestingly though, when I initially fitted up the tyres tubeless the front was sweet but the rear bubbled Stans goo all over the place. It would appear that I had squished the side walls pretty good over time ploughing through rock gardens ( the tube never punctured ) . The Stans did the trick though, only leaks slowly over several weeks now

davep said:

Been running 3C minion and highrollers all season (and half of last) on 721s with stans strips with out a single issue (mich tires before that, I have no used a tube in 5 years).

IMO people that have problems simply run too little pressure (the old incorrect idea of tubeless = lower pressure). If I ran high 20s on high speed runs with anything smaller than a mich 2.8, I would be homeless due to rim purchases.

Run the recomended pressures (low to mid 30s), let the rubber compound do what it is designed to do, have tires that dont fold over in every corner....and you should be good!

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davep - interesting!

I've heard in the past that getting standard Maxxis DH tires to seat properly along the bead and hold on the rim in tubeless applications on 721's was a pain and yielded poor results. This of course could be "urban legend" or simply a fallacy but thought I'd ask.

Is there anything in particular that you do when installing the Stan's Strip or any little tricks with mounting the tire? I'll be running a fresh set of 721's for racing next year and would like to dump some rotational weight. (I have some NOS Maxxis TS rim strips so I'll be using those.)

The interior rim shape is not ideal for sure..it is deep in the middle, and slopes up (out) to the sidewall, rather than haveing a 'step' for the bead to sit and lock on to.
I just followed the set-up instructions for that rim from stans. The only 'odd' thing is the need to build up the rim-bed with tape so help create a flatter rim-bed so the beads have less tendancy to fall into the middle cavity of the rim-bed.

IIRC the Maxxis strips have an inner 'lip' sort of thing that helps keep the tire beads locked out against the sidewall. This should help a bit I think.

On the other hand, the Stans strips a very soft and tacky rubber, and in my experience, tires beads have a tendancy to adhere pretty well to the strip. Most times when I change tires, I have to use my thumb or a plastic tire iron and work both sides of the tire, on both sides, to peel the tire bead off the strip.

I think the 'ideal' strip would incorporate the tacky, sealing rubber that stans uses, with some more 'shape' to the strip like Maxxis used to provide more tire retention..

Either way, I think the only 'trick' needed to setting up the 721 tubeless is to build up the rim-bed a bit (under the strip) to help prevent the tire bead from falling down into the deep inner bed of the rim.

dave - thanks so much! OK - so building up the rim bed is key - gotcha. That definitely answers some questions!

Hmmm.... maybe people were having issues due to the slightly less tacky properties of the Maxxis TS strips... I'll get a set of Stan's strips just in case... davep - just to clarify - the rim strip should be contacting the outer edge of the rim lip (underneath it) where the bead "locks" into. So essentially the bead is sandwiched in between the lip and the rim strip. (only used UST/UST in the past - strips are a bit of a new thing for me)

I'm really hoping that Mavic will begin selling 32H spares for their new 2010 DeeMax Ultimates. From what I remember they are 21mm wide (inner width) versions of the 823's AND made from a softer metal... so basically they are UST ready 721's...if only they'd offer some in black...

The stans strips should cover the entire 'horzontal' rim bed surface. So they come tight up against the bottom inside edge of the vertical sidewall. WHen the tire is inflated, and the bead is pushed under the bead hook/sidewall...the inner most (smallest diameter) surface of the tire bead and rim strip are squeezed against each other to create the seal.

I think building up the rim bed helps with this as well. If the rim strip had to follow the curves of the inner rim surface, it might not be wide enough to fully contact the rim sidewall (shrtest distance between to points, etc). On other rims (729s for example) and the appropriate strip, the strip is quite wide, and you need to work a bit to get the width of the strip to actually fall into the rim, past the sidewall 'hook'.

The Maxxis strips are different in that they actually come all the way up the inner sidewall surface. I do remember having to make sure to keep the vertical part of the strip outside of the tire and up against the sidewall. IIRC it was pretty easy to get that strip 'flange' folded down and inside/under the bead....YMMV

Here is the Stans set up info for various rims/strips: http://www.notubes.com/support_selecting.php
They recomend a strip of 22mm Velox type tape for the 721(scroll down ot the rhyno-lyte strip). I think I used two layers (oh the e-weight horror)... a narrower layer in the bottom of the 'valley' and then the 22mm over the top of that. Essentially, I was trying to fill in the excessively deep 'V' shape of the inside of the 721.

Lastly, I would add that I think it is important to get the stans strips correctly and evenly installed in the rim. The strips are very elastic and when putting them on the rim, it is possible to stretch some areas more than others. The more stretched areas will be thinner and narrower (think about stretching a wide rubber band) and the other areas will be thicker and wider. Once the strip is in the rim, it is important to work around a bit to get the tension and thus the width and thickness of the strip fairly even. A little (very dilute) soapy water on the rim and strip can help everything slide into place.

Another wee trick - if you are planning on running 3C's then get a die grinder and smooth off the small moulding bumps on the outside and bottom of the bead. Air leaks past at these points and makes sealing a pain. After that you are good to go

davep said:

P.S. PEDALS, damn it!!!!!

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YEAH!!

Wait, what?

Come on Woooooooooooooooo...keep up. You too busy chasing teenagers down the street in your boxxers?

These: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185618&highlight=carve

I've ran 3C's ghetto tubeless (bmx tube + stans) for two years now and I've had ZERO issues. It works fine and the weight penalty really isn't that bad. You can get away with 25 psi with no issues.

davep said:

Come on Woooooooooooooooo...keep up. You too busy chasing teenagers down the street in your boxxers?

These: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185618&highlight=carve

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Seems like you should go say that in that other thread. This here's a tire talkin one.



On that note. I've had some 60d and 3c minions on some 823s forever. I mean like moses forever. They wear out, I replace them. I think I've been on this cycle since the wheel itself was invented. I'm a fan.

I did the ghetto with 3c deal, worked fine. As long as the goop didn't dry up and I ran +30psi. In the end I found it all to be a pain the butt for little gain. I never felt the 100gram? diff or better traction. I did go 1/2 a season with out a flat, (other then burping while trying 25psi.) then got a tiny side wall tear in the rear. Next ride the front got a tear though the tread. Rather then patch the tires, I tossed a tubes in. Really I just got sick of, the mess and having to check the psi every ride. In the end.