MTB Business

ivanfiestas · Dec 16, 2009

I think it could be a win-win situation, depending how much/expensive getting something machined would be.

For example, lets say I want to make a custom direct stem for my For 40, light but durable aluminium. How much are we looking at? If its less than 100 bucks, I would consider it a win-win situation. More than that, it would need to be a very specific component.

Iridemtb · Dec 16, 2009

That is an awesome idea. I haven't really run into many problems with things that I would like to change. I wish I could have had a longer swing arm for my yeti asx... Although now I no longer have that frame.

In the future I would probably run into something, whether it be a better design or just a stronger material for a design.

demo 9 · Dec 16, 2009

I think it all comes down to money/weights/strength. Sure i would love to have my own custom _____ but when i have a stem or crown that costs 400 bucks compared to the stock crown for 59. also if somebody wants a custom swingarm, if that is going to be carved out of a giant block of metal, it will weigh a ton, and probably cancel out its effectiveness. All parts must be strong, IMO, the idea is great but does not sound feasible. Your business would essentially make all the products on the market today(without years of R&D and testing). Something seems off with your company being able to make an exact replica of a sunline stem in a few weeks, skipping the testing and other stuff that makes products take long to get to market-seems to good to be true and hopefully being cheaper.

Count me in for the ideas and what not, but it has to be on par with the market in all the aspects for me to take a custom stem (i designed) with no experience other than an idea, and choose that over a proven, tested and researched stem.

*a great example of this was the hardtail frame i had made by simple, it cost me 650 with powdercoat and a headset. This was a great opportunity because i got a bike that has absolutely spot on geo (IMO) and a color i could choose (and there were alot) at a price that is on par, sure 650 is pricey for a a frame only, but keep in mind the ever popular black market was 680, and i "could have" had simple make a blackmarket in w.e color and saved 30 dollars. (not 100% literally but you get the point)

sanjuro · Dec 16, 2009

Marketing is another key.

I'm friends with the guy who owns Bicycle Research Tools? Who is that? Do you have spoke nipple driver? That's Bicycle Research.

They also make a very cool bearing removal tool and a good headset installer/headtube reamer.

Their last attempt at advertising was renting a table at Interbike and handling out "Got Tools" t-shirts in Park Tool blue.

I think marketing your stuff is almost more important than making a good product.

Pslide · Dec 16, 2009

I think this is a great idea. But there are already places like Superrat that will do custom jobs. So what is the advantage of using your service, when you have to give away the idea as well? You'd have to price yourself lower than the competition, which could mean you don't have a very profitable business.

I've designed loads of parts that I've never had made, and to be honest, I'm not sure I'd be up for giving my idea away as you suggest. I would, however, be interested in working with a company like yours to develop ideas which could go on to small scale production. I would want to be a part of that process though - not necessarily for profit, but a part of it.

Ithnu · Dec 16, 2009

So basically you'd be a CAD/machine shop that keeps the intellectual rights of what you make for your customer?

Granted you're doing it at a discount. And as you pointed out most ideas won't make your company money anyway, so you're gambling some one will come up with an idea that you can produce on a larger scale.

Sounds like a strange way to do R&D; but who knows it may work.

UNHrider · Dec 16, 2009

why would people come to you to have their prototype made, when you then get the intellectual property rights to their idea, when they could go to another fab shop, get it prototyped and keep their idea?

Why not just stick to building prototypes and make a profit off of that, and then you can offer to help refine their idea into a marketable thing as a partnership/for an added cost.

jonKranked · Dec 16, 2009

Ithnu said:
So basically you'd be a CAD/machine shop that keeps the intellectual rights of what you make for your customer?

Granted you're doing it at a discount. And as you pointed out most ideas won't make your company money anyway, so you're gambling some one will come up with an idea that you can produce on a larger scale.

Sounds like a strange way to do R&D; but who knows it may work.

Could also work in that a combination of ideas from separate sources could make a killer product.

Sounds kinda like open source software to me (not that its a bad idea!).

shift96 · Dec 16, 2009

So what your saying is I come up with an idea, send it to you, you make it, send it to me for approval. I sign all my rights away to you and you market it and make money? What's in it for for the person who came up with the idea? Sorry if I missed that. sounds like it has potential though :thumb:

jonKranked · Dec 16, 2009

UNHrider said:
why would people come to you to have their prototype made, when you then get the intellectual property rights to their idea, when they could go to another fab shop, get it prototyped and keep their idea?

Why not just stick to building prototypes and make a profit off of that, and then you can offer to help refine their idea into a marketable thing as a partnership/for an added cost.

It seems to me that its geared more towards people who have an idea, but not necessarily the means or the desire to pursue the IP & production.

shift96 · Dec 16, 2009

jonKranked said:
It seems to me that its geared more towards people who have an idea, but not necessarily the means or the desire to pursue the IP & production.

Yes, but what's in it for the person who came up with the idea?

jonKranked · Dec 16, 2009

shift96 said:
Yes, but what's in it for the person who came up with the idea?

A warm tingly feeling.

If you're not familiar with how business works, its not exactly uncommon for the people who come up with ideas to get the short end of the stick.

Ithnu · Dec 16, 2009

shift96 said:
Yes, but what's in it for the person who came up with the idea?

A cheap prototype. The original person could always have them build a prototype missing a key idea. But that's an A-Hole move.

Think about all the people who've posted ideas on forums about "hey guys! I've had 1 year at a community college and I think I can design a DH bike in its entirely!".

Those with fab experience can build their own, those who are engineers can bring a full engineering drawing to a fab shop and keep the rights.

I think most customers will be in the first description I had. However the OP may be able to take a pile of the crappy designs and get something more out of them that none of the customers could have come up with on their own.

I think the idea MIGHT work. But getting enough customers to make it a profitable business would be hard.

bizutch · Dec 16, 2009

The guy over on MTBR in the NC forum has done alot of that, even strange stuff like sidecars. Maybe talk with him. He's right here in Asheville. It's called Smoke Bikes.

manhattanprjkt83 · Dec 16, 2009

UNHrider said:
why would people come to you to have their prototype made, when you then get the intellectual property rights to their idea, when they could go to another fab shop, get it prototyped and keep their idea?

Why not just stick to building prototypes and make a profit off of that, and then you can offer to help refine their idea into a marketable thing as a partnership/for an added cost.

This was my first thought, if i was in the business of making new products i would want the rights to my idea's. I would be working with a local machine shop with a cnc machine to creat 'mule' type components that could be tested and perfected. Once I figured out something I wanted to be marketed i would try to source a manufacturer for my ideas.

That said there are quite a few of these smaller companies doing this type of stuff, i think the market for botique pedals,stems,end caps...whatever is pretty saturated with guys doing it well like deity, twenty6, and straightline...

shift96 · Dec 16, 2009

jonKranked said:
A warm tingly feeling.

If you're not familiar with how business works, its not exactly uncommon for the people who come up with ideas to get the short end of the stick.

I'm somewhat familiar with how it works but why would someone send him there idea's for nothing gained? There has to be something in it for the person with the idea.

If this is not true, This is just a polite way of saying "Ill take your idea, make money and you get nothing, any takers?"

jonKranked · Dec 16, 2009

shift96 said:
I'm somewhat familiar with how it works but why would someone send him there idea's for nothing gained? There has to be something in it for the person with the idea.

If this is not true, This is just a polite way of saying "Ill take your idea, make money and you get nothing, any takers?"

Did you miss the part where he mentioned discounted prototypes?

Pslide · Dec 16, 2009

I think another slight problem for this business model is that it's increasingly difficult for a basic fab shop to produce a unique and uber-desireable product. There's only so much you can do when CNCing aluminum (assuming that's what's on offer).

The future includes casting, forging (+ hollow forging), composite layups, titanium, magnesium, and combinations of the above and probably stuff I've never even heard of. I think you'd be much more likely to succeed and produce something truly innovative and desireable if you could offer the full spectrum of materials and manufacturing processes.

shift96 · Dec 16, 2009

jonKranked said:
Did you miss the part where he mentioned discounted prototypes?

"The customer would have to sign a release that would give the idea to my company for further development and eventually marketing and production."

did you mis this part above? If you sign a release than that discounted prototype makes a nice paper weight for the office

jonKranked · Dec 16, 2009

shift96 said:
"The customer would have to sign a release that would give the idea to my company for further development and eventually marketing and production."

did you mis this part above? If you sign a release than that discounted prototype makes a nice paper weight for the office

No, i didn't miss it. But it's also not a guarantee that any particular idea is going to make it into development or production.

And why are you assuming that any prototype just a paper weight? Someone might just want a set of custom dropouts, or a derailler hanger for a frame from a company that is no longer in business, which is pretty functional if you ask me. Would be way cheaper to do it this way than to have a 'normal' machine shop CNC you a one-off (providing they even agree to do a one-off, which a lot of shops won't, the ROI isn't there for them, or it will cost you an AWFUL lot).

shift96 · Dec 16, 2009

jonKranked said:
No, i didn't miss it. But it's also not a guarantee that any particular idea is going to make it into development or production.

And why are you assuming that any prototype just a paper weight? Someone might just want a set of custom dropouts, or a derailler hanger for a frame from a company that is no longer in business, which is pretty functional if you ask me. Would be way cheaper to do it this way than to have a 'normal' machine shop CNC you a one-off (providing they even agree to do a one-off, which a lot of shops won't, the ROI isn't there for them, or it will cost you an AWFUL lot).

Again, I understand that and appreciate your info as well. Let me ask you this, you want a part made from a machine shop and they offer to make it but you sign the rights away to them so they can further develop it. Don't you think you are selling yourself short just to get a discount on them making it for you? Giving up all rights to the idea just to get a discount? I bet if anyone did that, and then years later saw their idea being mass produced and the person making money on it, they would get sick. Granted it will probably be not exactly what they designed. My point is I guess, if you have a pretty decent idea, why give it away for nothing? Pay a little more yourself and develop the idea yourself. If you do not have the skills to further develop than bring in people who do but keep it your idea. Why give some else a free ride? Thanks for your info, I see your point as well.

manhattanprjkt83 · Dec 16, 2009

Pslide said:
I think another slight problem for this business model is that it's increasingly difficult for a basic fab shop to produce a unique and uber-desireable product. There's only so much you can do when CNCing aluminum (assuming that's what's on offer).

Yeah this is the funny thing about the bike business, not to take anything away from the guys mentioned before they are doing a great job of making components we all love. However, there isnt any engineering genius going on when it comes to many of the components in the bike biz. We are in a fairly simple industry when it comes CNC type work, making a stem or seat post or whatever is pretty much engineering 101 for many guys who know what they are talking about (I am not one of them though).

jonKranked · Dec 16, 2009

Shift, I get what you're saying, but I don't think the business model being proposed by the OP is intended for individuals or groups who have ideas that are truly innovative and groundbreaking. For those who have the intellect to develop the idea and properly see it to market, well, this isn't the business model for them.

I see this as sort of a niche thing, but I don't think its a bad idea. Yea, I agree with the point that you're selling yourself short by signing away the IP, but then again, there are people who don't really care.

shift96 · Dec 16, 2009

jonKranked said:
Shift, I get what you're saying, but I don't think the business model being proposed by the OP is intended for individuals or groups who have ideas that are truly innovative and groundbreaking. For those who have the intellect to develop the idea and properly see it to market, well, this isn't the business model for them.

I see this as sort of a niche thing, but I don't think its a bad idea. Yea, I agree with the point that you're selling yourself short by signing away the IP, but then again, there are people who don't really care.

Yeah I guess I missed that

I didn't even think about people who really don't care. I guess there are people who this will work out good for. My mind set is a little different I guess, I would want to make it mine. Good discussion :thumb:

demo 9 · Dec 16, 2009

I am one of the "people who will never care" i have a great idea for a gearbox frame. (NOT A CHANCE IT WILL HAPPEN.) if i can draw it out in pencil and get 1 made, and never get to produce it, im ok with that, still get to say see that ______, i designed that/that was my idea. Personally id rather ride my frame and never market it(this will NEVER happen) than sit around saying how i could make the best bike ever.

nelsonjm · Dec 16, 2009

I think you either need to come up with a better way to entice inventors to use your service such as royalties, or go the open source/open hardware way and act as a specialized fab service.

This is what I suggest:
Build a community website where people can upload their designs shared under an open source license. These designs can then be observed and tweaked by others, which should hopefully make the design better and more practical to produce. After the design is finalized by the team that is working on it, it will then be set to a review stage where your engineers can double check that it is a manufacturable item.

To determine how marketable these items are, you can devise a popularity system such as a "I like this" button on the page to something more complex like a pool buy-in where the item is not produces until x people commit to saying "I will buy this item"

You could potentially get quite a bit of business out of this concept. First you would undercut competition prices since you wouldn't have to dedicate as many man hours to design. Second, you get community support since they were a part of the process, and third, if monkies join together to agree one frame is perfect like they do here, then everybody will think that X product is the best one out there, even if it isn't :rofl:

Winger · Dec 16, 2009

Reading this thread another thing is brought to mind...

What about testing and liability....

Even if you are able to get customers, and create something they desire at the right price. You would be making products to their specs, or your own. You then would be selling these products for a specific use. The example that comes to mind is the talk of stems... The stem is crucial component on the front of the bike. If your stem has not been tested and you sell a direct mount stem to somebody and they crash and get hurt because of failure... You could be in a load of trouble.... The amount of testing that goes into every product is unreal. If you were to be legit and sell these products to consumers for the right cost you would spend way too much $ to make it even close to worth it for the consumer.

I would say make products for yourself.. If you come across a great idea then pursue it.

cheers

captainspauldin · Dec 16, 2009

This sounds like a great way to get some Intense G3 style dropouts fabbed up for my Shocker..

UNHrider · Dec 16, 2009

the liability question is a good one as well.

If you take someones idea and as you stated, come up with the engineering drawings, specs, etc are you then liable for anything that results from that part failing?

seems like something to consider.

I'm not totally up on my IP laws but i believe if you start imitating designs that are patented and then sell them, the owner of the patent can then go after you for royalties, infringement, etc... I would then think you'd have to do a proper patent search to make sure youre not infringing on anything. Probably nothing to worry about if you stay small scale, but if youre business makes some noise and gets noticed by the wrong people, could open a pandora's box of sorts.

Southern Lord · Dec 16, 2009

ok I got one matt. lets make a custom rear swingarm for my bullit that will accept the replaceable dropouts and floating brake adapter that santa cruz currently offers for the new bullits. you know i'll be a guinea pig dood.

Dox · Dec 16, 2009

Hey Matt, if I'm able to make my own 3d models and 2d shop drawing could you just take my drawings and machine things directly?

nelsonjm · Dec 16, 2009

rocketmatt17 said:
exactly
Great concept but have you ever had more than one boss. Its very hard to get anything done if people are not on the same page. I like the idea though
......
Im not interested in doing R&D for every one off product that never makes it to market. So if you contact me and you have a special stem you want built, you send me a drawing, I draw it up in Autocad, you approve it, and we build it, you would have to release the liabilty for the your product and then release the idea to our company. If you go out and break your neck because of your bad design then its your baby. Now if I start into production without proper R&D then its my baby. A contract would be worked out to do this and if we thought the product was a good idea then we would perform a patent search, then marketing and so on. The chance that that someone has a great idea that ends up making megabucks is VERY slim. Its so easy to make little changes to an existing product to get around patents.

People are going to ask why would you want to start a business that has very little chance of making a profit. How many times have you dreamed of doing something that you love and are very interested in doing. If all I was interested in was the money then I would just keep the business I have now.

Can you explain more about the multiple boss issue you see yourself encountering with my setup?
For these group projects I envision there being an "electoral board" and "speaker" that approves and submits the final design to you. Someone from your company would then review/tweak the design, and post it for the board to see. This group can then bicker amongst themselves and when they have made up their minds give the speaker a list of changes to be made or the thumbs up to proceed with development and finalize the design.

I don't see this setup as being more of a hastle to deal with than if you dealt with individuals. I actually think it would be better since you would have more eyes filtering out designs that will go nowhere and waste your time.

Furthermore, if you provide your designs under a community license, it could protect you from design flaw related liability (check out the creative commons and GPL licenses) so you would only have to worry about fabrication flaw reliability issues.

Just food for thought. I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

Another thought about this setup is it could free you from the hassle of searching for already existing patents. Worst comes to worse, you are ordered to stop building the product, are informed of the conflicting patent, and then get to change the design to avoid further legal complexities.

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