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Blackmarket Contraband

Luckynumber13

Monkey
Jul 16, 2008
109
0
NJ
Okay so lets be constructive. What is geometrically superior about the pinscher vs the Mob? Or the TOP vs the pinscher. The Howie vs the Geekhouse...

There is a general consensus among BMX bike manufacturers, head angle 74.5-75 seat 71. BB height 11.6-11.8.

Whats the perfect MTB hardtail head and seat angle? and most important BB drop/height?
the geometry of the pinscher isn't necessarily superior to the mob, the two geometries are just different, its what you prefer

the pinscher has a higher bb giving you more pop for higher hops
the pinscher also has shorter chainstays allowing for easier spins
the pinscher is probably a better street/park bike
the mob is slacker(head angle) and lower(bb), better for dirt jumping and racing:thumb:

I'm still undecided between the 2..im 6'2" and thinking that the pinscher might be too small (top tube)..but I'm thinking the mob might fell too sluggish:confused: Also the mob is stronger, lighter and looks better a little better(not that it really matters).
its between the 22.5 mob and 22.5 pinscher
Im soo confused.:confused:
 

sittingduck

Turbo Monkey
Jun 22, 2007
1,958
2
Oregon
...... a lot of frame manufacturers use Sanko so that they can go with thinner tubing to lower the weight. Apparently blkmrkt didn't with the Contraband.
This is back to the original topic... According to the flyer, they DID use Sanko, but somehow still ended up 5.8 lbs.... which to me, doesn't really make much sense.
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,025
2
Hell Track
This is back to the original topic... According to the flyer, they DID use Sanko, but somehow still ended up 5.8 lbs.... which to me, doesn't really make much sense.
Yeah, I meant that apparently they didn't use thinner tubing. I believe that it's Sanko. It's either relatively thick tubing all around, or maybe not double butted. It definitely seems odd... especially with the tapered stays. Sanko isn't necessarily lighter than any other 4130 chromo... it's just stronger, so you can go thinner.
 

TortugaTonta

Monkey
Aug 27, 2008
539
0
5.8 is a reasonable weight for that type frame. Sure you could make it lighter but then open yourself to warrenty issues when kids barspin 3 to flat off the BurgerKing roof.

Variety is good, it would be a boring world if we all rode the same bike and listened to blink 182.
 

Evil4bc

Turbo Monkey
Jun 17, 2005
1,080
1
Nor-Cal
Wow... hadn't been following this thread. But, it's funny.



This is not true. I have never seen anywhere that the Riot is made from Sanko. And Sanko is actually really, really good. It's the branded quality Chromo from Japan (think like SuperTherm from the US). In fact, a lot of frame manufacturers use Sanko so that they can go with thinner tubing to lower the weight. Apparently blkmrkt didn't with the Contraband.
This thread reminds me of why I stay away from RM as course of practice .
It's just a bike why so much drama :think:
Not trying to stirr up anymore sh!t than has already been shoveled around in this thread .

To clear up the Sanko VS other branded double butted 4130 tube set discussion I thought I should shed some light as I have worked with samples of various generations of both TrueTemper super-therm Reynolds 853 and SANKO branded tube set's.

SANKO is as Cru pointed out a Japanese branded tube set sold to Taiwan originally for BMX frames to compete with past offerings from Reynolds and other material manufactures , now it has found it's way into the MTB world .

You can request various butted sections for SANKO tube set's , it's not just a single tube offering used by many companies but a brand of tube sold to the factories . The customer IE: bike company or the factory can spec what thickness and butting profile they want on their tubeset's this dictates weight not the fact that they used SANKO over another material .

SANKO is just another brad name like Pepsi or Coke , It's double butted cromoly but really nothing special and has none of the properties of Air hardened tube set's like True-Temper Supertherm and Reynolds 853 FYI

Supertherm / OX platinum tube set's have Platinum added to the alloy to help it's fatigue resistance .
Supertherm . OX platinum and Reynolds 853 are considered Air hardening alloy's . SANKO is not , this is the biggest difference between these branded tube set's .
This is why as pointed out supertherm bikes last YEARS longer than other imported Taiwan chromoly frames .

(INFO taken from TrueTemper on Air hardening alloy's )
Air hardening steels are metallurgically designed so that as the steel cools and solidifies from the molten state in air, the steel hardens to an even higher strength. The metallurgists must control the alloying elements so that the hardened steel is also tough and able to absorb impacts, rather than brittle and subject to fracturing.

True Temper not only solved these problems, but went further: Most heat treated steels tend to anneal, or soften, when heated between about 1000°F and 1500°F. TIG Welding, which heats the joint up to the melting point, must heat the part of the tube adjacent to the weld up into this annealing range, thus locally weakening the tube. This drop in strength has no effect on every day riding, but it does reduce the potential long term fatigue life and, in a crash, can lead to buckling of the frame.

OX PLATINUM is very resistant to this annealing. Thus an OX PLATINUM frame will survive crashes better, and also have a much better fatigue life.
 

Cru Jones

Turbo Monkey
Sep 2, 2006
3,025
2
Hell Track
Good info, Brad. I should have compared Sanko to the brand name of True Temper... not necessarily the SuperTherm tubing. I just want to point out that there is a quality difference between Sanko and regular Taiwanese chromo. So, it's not really fair to group all of the Taiwan chromoly frames together.

Here is some info on Sanko from the WTP site...


What is Sanko tubing?
Japan is well known for their steel manufacturing. Sanko is a company that is famous for their high quality tubular steel and wethepeople were the first to use it and standardise it's usage in the bmx market. The tubing we are using is made especially for the bicycle market. We use both single, double, offset butted and regular tubing. Even on the regular tubing we can use thinner tubing since it's stronger (Material strength (kg/mm2) is 78) and higher quality than normal Taiwanese steel. The firm itself is well respected, has been in business since 1956 and employs nearly 300 people. We use only AISI* 4130 Cromoly(Chromium-molybdenum, CrMo, Chrome-moly), a low alloy steel for our aftermarket frames because it offers the best combination between strength, quality, availability and weldability.
4130 CrMo contains 95%+ Iron(Fe) and the following alloying agents:
0.28-0.33% Carbon (C)
0.4- 0.6% Manganese (Mn)
0.8-1.1% Cromium (Cr)
0.15-0.25% Molybdenum (Mo)
0.04% Phosphorous (P)
0.04% Sulphur (S)
0.2-0.35% Silicon (Si)
- Keywords if you're interested in finding out more in the net, AISI 4000 Series Steel, Low Alloy Steel, Medium Carbon Steel, Metal, CrMo, 4130, Sanko, *American Iron and Steel Association

Where are the frames made.
They are made in Taiwan with Sanko Japanese 4130. This is the very best material available and although we were the first to use it, several other well respected firms now use it too.
 

quickneonrt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 8, 2003
1,611
0
Staten Island NY
I just like to play Devils advocate. Yes I am not a fan of BM. But to each is own. Like the 24" Dobermann Molosse better because of the higher bb,it is lighter and the 110mmx14mm rear. You have a larger selection and stronger rear hub.
 

Evil4bc

Turbo Monkey
Jun 17, 2005
1,080
1
Nor-Cal
Good info, Brad. I should have compared Sanko to the brand name of True Temper... not necessarily the SuperTherm tubing. I just want to point out that there is a quality difference between Sanko and regular Taiwanese chromo. So, it's not really fair to group all of the Taiwan chromoly frames together.
Thanks Cru :thumb:
Sanko is a very high quality double butted cro-moly, I should have noted that Sanko is very similar to TureTemper versus non HT and Reynolds 521 .
Much like other brands is common to find similar product offerings , SANKO has carted their business to making custom tubes for the larger Taiwanese factories. For this reason you see them being used more for production bikes than say other tubes from True-Temper or Reynolds it would not be as cost effective to ship tubes for several hundred bikes 1/2 way around the world when you can have something comparable that cost much less made closer to your factory .


I wont continue to thread jack and talk about all the different properties of double butted non heat treated cro-moly , elongation properties and how this effect fatigue life this could all be saved for another thread .

Thanks
Brad - Nemesis Project
 

v-digit

Turbo Monkey
Apr 3, 2006
1,218
0
Brooklyn, NY
Weird the ACL is really nice and he grew up hanging out at BMW. What could be better then his own custom frame?
like stoked said on previous page, the frame never went into production and kept getting pushed back to make fixied gear gangsta frames, which are more lucrative to BMW :) i'm guessing whats the point of having your own custom frame if its not being produced even if there are people literally lined up to buy it....

they had a difference in opinions from what i gathered from anson.