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Lessons to learn from Olympic Ski Cross for 4X

BrayDownhill

Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
113
0
Bray, Ireland
Anyone watching the ski cross? Not wanting to reopen the debate about whether people like or dislike 4x but does anyone reckon there are any lessons to be learnt from the Ski Cross track? Great racing and so exciting.

The triple drop to steep slow jump on the start seems to be keeping it tight all the way down.
 

iandude94

Monkey
May 30, 2008
426
0
OC, NY
I know what your saying, the first 2 jumps really set up a great race. Did you watch the X-games? It would be cool to see the alter they had on that course on a 4x course.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
Long straightaways, big jumps, and big wide turns for passing. They know how to do it. NO slow sections except the beginning. This is great TV for sure, even the qualifying is better than 4x competition.
 

yetihenry

Monkey
Aug 9, 2009
241
1
Whistler, BC
I think the cable cam video is the big thing adding to the excitement. If freecaster had one of those veiwing figures would surely go through the roof.

The very start would need a bigger gap, but the tight step ups are sweet when everyone is so close the low fast rhythm section was good and the hip to huck finish is cool but I doubt we will see many of the larger obstacles, especially in the uk as the tracks need to appeal to everyone in order to stay afloat.
 

slothy

Monkey
Sep 21, 2007
259
0
Ireland
yes, the ski cross was amazing, people I was watching it with would not be into any gravity sports at all and they thought it was amazing. I think Bmx and 4x could learn something from it.
I dont watch 4x because its over too fast or something, or its not close enough, cant put my finger on it I just don't enjoy 4x at all.
 

stiksandstones

Turbo Monkey
May 21, 2002
5,078
25
Orange, Ca
Anyone know if there are skicross specific athletes? or is this like a sideshow thing? Does DelBosco make a living from ski-cross?

This is pure curiosity, no hatin'

thanks
 

iandude94

Monkey
May 30, 2008
426
0
OC, NY
Anyone know if there are skicross specific athletes? or is this like a sideshow thing? Does DelBosco make a living from ski-cross?

This is pure curiosity, no hatin'

thanks
There's world cups like mtb kinda. There's ski cross races and all the other ski races with the same objective except 6 different names. They broadcast them in the us, I watched the skicross race one time on it and it was pretty cool. So I guess potentially he could make a living off that but he probably races all the races at world cups and just focuses on ski cross at the olympics.
 

heikkihall

Monkey
Dec 14, 2001
882
0
Durango, CO
Anyone know if there are skicross specific athletes? or is this like a sideshow thing? Does DelBosco make a living from ski-cross?

This is pure curiosity, no hatin'

thanks
There are now skicross specific athletes for sure. Before it was an Olympic event there were not nearly as many. The two Americans on the team this year are both "retired" world cup ski racers from the standard disciplines (DH,SG,GS,SL,SC). And I believe that the only crossover athlete that did both traditional ski racing and skiercross at the Olympics this year was a Canadian named Erik Guay. He has had tremendous success in skiercross on the local/ regional level and has had some very good results on the World Cup in the traditional events.

It is certainly possible to make a somewhat good living racing just skiercross but it is definately not easy. There are probably a handfull of Europeans and maybe 4-5 North Americans that make it happen.
 

SupaTone

Monkey
Jun 5, 2008
125
0
French Alps
I find that the MTB world is far too narrow minded to take something like Skier/Boardercross and use it as a benefit for the good of 4X. The perfect link for the UCI would be to talk to Palmer - as everyone knows, he was legend on board, skis and bike... but hey, everyone else knows best!!
 

Jorgen

Monkey
Oct 3, 2003
255
0
Oslo, Norway
Delbosco down meant my guy won bronze.
Sorry for Chris though, hate watching guys go down hard.

Skicross rocks, in between all the Norway gold, the Skicross bronze is way better than all of them(except SuperG gold...)

Great racing, great cameras...great course, even got my girlfriend worked up on sports!
 

trib

not worthy of a Rux.
Jun 22, 2009
1,457
388
It was fun to watch but i think the main problem in 4x is the lack of passing, and except for a few occasions the first guy out of corner 1 was always 1st through the finish line from what I saw of the skier x.
I didn't watch the whole event, maybe 8 or so races whilst cooking so I may have this wrong though....
 

profro

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2002
5,617
314
Walden Ridge
As people have added, the first section really helped contain the field and allowed for racing the rest of the track. Plus maybe in 4x they could take away practice. Qualify and race. That might keep the racing close as well???
 

profro

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2002
5,617
314
Walden Ridge
I think for that very reason it would make it better. It would rely more on bike skills versus 'going big'. Go big and crash is the chance you take. Maybe others that play the game a little different stay up and win or maybe it pays off and you win. Lots of racing is this way and works there i.e. hare scrambles, Super G, and other ski disciplines.
 

trust4130

Monkey
Aug 16, 2005
203
0
Pennsylvania
I think for that very reason it would make it better. It would rely more on bike skills versus 'going big'. Go big and crash is the chance you take. Maybe others that play the game a little different stay up and win or maybe it pays off and you win. Lots of racing is this way and works there i.e. hare scrambles, Super G, and other ski disciplines.
Yeah, but there's a pretty good reason why motocross was not on your list of disciplines of racing that work that way... It's the same reason it's a bad idea for 4x.
 

profro

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2002
5,617
314
Walden Ridge
Cant argue with that. But at least with motocross its a 20 lap main. Lots can happen to offer passing. 4x has to think outside the box to offer better racing.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I think for that very reason it would make it better. It would rely more on bike skills versus 'going big'. Go big and crash is the chance you take.
Why is that the only way to crash?

Not knowing the consistency of the dirt in a turn, and not knowing just how fast you CAN go over a feature are the things that get worked out in practice. Take that away and you have guys not only hurting themselves but the guys that land on them or get landed on. I don't really get a kick out of seeing people get needlessly hurt.

Part of 4x as it stands right now is that the best rider is the one who can spot alternative lines and passing opportunities that maybe others can't.....and that comes from course inspection and riding. That's part of 'bike skillz' too ya know. :D
 

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
Part of 4x as it stands right now is that the best rider is the one who can spot alternative lines and passing opportunities that maybe others can't.....and that comes from course inspection and riding. That's part of 'bike skillz' too ya know. :D
Right now the best rider is Graves and that's cause he always gets the hole shot.
 

TomBigmac

Chimp
May 31, 2009
58
0
The Fly-Cam guys were at the Livigno World Champs in 2005. If only freecaster had the budget to do it at every World Cup or there was a decent sponsor for the series!

 

profro

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2002
5,617
314
Walden Ridge
Not knowing the consistency of the dirt in a turn, and not knowing just how fast you CAN go over a feature are the things that get worked out in practice.

Part of 4x as it stands right now is that the best rider is the one who can spot alternative lines and passing opportunities that maybe others can't.....and that comes from course inspection and riding.

All of that can happen without practice too. It comes from experience, course walk, qualifying, and as you advance through the rounds.

As I said, I'm just trying to think outside the box. Everyone keeps saying the same old thing but the same has been done over and over and it hasn't worked. I quit doing 4x events because I didn't grow up racing BMX so my gates were crap. Nor did I have the time to practice gates as DH was my thing. But if I could walk up after DH practice, walk the course, and use my skills from all-round riding to pin a run or two, it might be worth trying again. Only so many guys want to specialize in 4x and that limits the field in my opinion. :thumb:
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
But if I could walk up after DH practice, walk the course, and use my skills from all-round riding to pin a run or two,
Come on I'm actually trying to have a serious conversation here! Quit screwing around.



No I see your point. But part of the reason a lot of people don't race 4x is just the risk of getting f'd up. No practice just seems like it would increase those odds.

I still want to see an uphill start out of the gate. Sure drop some elevation after the first feature but make people REALLY work for it. :D
 

dh gangster

Monkey
Jul 31, 2006
366
0
P en Doubleyou
I still want to see an uphill start out of the gate. Sure drop some elevation after the first feature but make people REALLY work for it.
I thought you didn't like seeing people suffer needlessly?

Sadistic Hypocrite.

Haha besides then the number of people who would actually want to do 4X would be a resounding 0, instead of the few that actually compete now. I could envision a lot of people saying "Uphill start gate? Ah fvck it i'll just do DH"
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I thought you didn't like seeing people suffer needlessly?

Sadistic Hypocrite.
Hey I was talking about getting injured :D



Haha besides then the number of people who would actually want to do 4X would be a resounding 0, instead of the few that actually compete now. I could envision a lot of people saying "Uphill start gate? Ah fvck it i'll just do DH"
You say that..... But look at all the freaks who willingly do that chaotic le mans start crap at super D races. It's amazing what you can get people to do just by calling something a race ;)
 

Leethal

Turbo Monkey
Oct 27, 2001
1,240
0
Avondale (Phoenix)
What I think made it neat was that after the tech first straight it was steep enough that they essentially had to scrub speed for the jumps and corners, this kept the racers closer together. The course showed how important setting up for corners is, which allowed the good riders to pass back after a minor mistake and also allowed a go for the glory line in the Final.

Make a 4x course the same way short sprint to a couple tech jumps then wide open after that..
 

BrayDownhill

Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
113
0
Bray, Ireland
What I think made it neat was that after the tech first straight it was steep enough that they essentially had to scrub speed for the jumps and corners, this kept the racers closer together. The course showed how important setting up for corners is, which allowed the good riders to pass back after a minor mistake and also allowed a go for the glory line in the Final.

Make a 4x course the same way short sprint to a couple tech jumps then wide open after that..
Thats sort of what I was getting at with the initial post, a tough technical start that minimizes the hole shot effect. It kept racing tight at the start and left the big long fast jumps for the mid section and then tightened it up towards the end again.The 2nd last hip jump appeared safe for the front runner but allowed someone who was willing to take a risk and boost it or hit it hard that they may make that extra position.

The technical start, fast mid section and then start bringing more technical yet speedy stuff in towards the end made for some great coverage, kept it tight at the start, allowed skill to shine and for the racers to ride rather than just attack in the mid section and then come the final few corners it was still close enough to get a great reaction from a finish area crowd.

I remember seeing coverage from the solvista 4x track, I know things didnt really work out but I thought that idea of the drop start was a great way to keep it tight for the first straight and then let the speed develop further along.

If a start straight is purely speed related and someone gets a bikes length ahead of you there, you are gonna find it very hard to catch up with them. Maybe some more drops, rocks, roots, slow speed jumps or something are required towards the start to help keep it tight.

Also I know that 4x has huge budgetary limitations with the size, scale and length available to track builders and as for television coverage replicating how the ski cross was covered is a very very expensive business!!!!!
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
2,006
Seattle
You say that..... But look at all the freaks who willingly do that chaotic le mans start crap at super D races. It's amazing what you can get people to do just by calling something a race ;)
That's pretty much the reason I've never raced Super D. I hate running, I have no interest in getting trampled, and that **** is always mayhem. I've got no problem pedaling, and frankly think a Super D race would play into my skill set better than pretty much everything else. I'm not brilliant at any one thing, but I can outpedal most DH guys, and out descend most XCers.

Edit, for clarity's sake. I'm of course talking at the local level.
 
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JaredGraves

Chimp
Oct 29, 2009
35
0
I think 4X could definately learn some things from the Boarder/Skiiercross events at the Olympics, and Ive thought of some things to consider.

1 - Profro, seriously....did you just suggest that? That would be the best way to wipe out most of the feild by the first round, im trying to think of a better way to describe what you are suggesting, but the best I can come up with is, absurd! I do agree though that people need to think outside the box a bit more when it comes to track design.

2 - The jumps and speed with long straights and more open turns is exacly what I was talking about in the 4X thread from last year, room to get a run going and build speed for passing moves if you have the skills/balls. thats more like what 4X could be, and see how pumped on it all you guys are!

3 - lets be realistic though, the hill from that course is as long as many DH tracks, and would cost an absolute fortune to do with dirt, but some sections along those lines could definately work.

4 - The speed and jump size of the Boarder/Skiiercross courses also isn't realistic for 4X, as some of the crashes that happened, if that was onto dirt and rocks, instead of snow, they would not have been getting up! But again, something a bit more along those lines would be awesome!

5 - The current 4X courses, especially at World cups, are so far below what the riders are capable of handling. They are getting better, evolution to get the tracks dialled will take time, and hopefully the Olympic courses give some good ideas.

6 - Starts and 1st straights...ahh that old favourite. keep in mind that if a 1st straight was built tech and tight like that, we would still be pedalling inbetween obstacles at the start, even if we have an obstacle right out of the start, we will still be pedally straight away again. Besides, pedalling is a big part of riding a bike, I struggle to understand why people whine and moan about pedalling, DH or 4X, your on a bike, you should have to pedal, and being a strong pedaller is no different to being a good cornerer, some are naturally good, some not so much, some work on it a lot, some don't. PLEASE GET OVER THE GATE START/PEDALLING THING!!!! So anyways, I would love to see a 1st straight like that, but keep in mind also, the course at the olympics looked to be ATLEAST 100 meters long, something we havnt seen in 4X.

7. The Olympics has proven to me for certain, that high speed flow also makes races look better, something 4X needs more of, instead of tight and awkward sections. The course also looked more like a BMX world Cup track (smooth, bigger jumps and flowing) than a current 4X track, so maybe we need more of that, instead of the rough slow natural stuff (although I still think the ultimate section for a 4X track would be a long straight with big flowy jumps with rough sections/rock gardens between doubles) atleast at World cups anyway. I think that without a doubt, the closest thing 4X has seen to the Boarder/Skiiercross courses was Livigno World Champs, 2005, somthing we need more of!

8 - Rocofullr - yes I have a strong start and get the holeshot a lot, but thats not why I win races. I also qualified 1st at 6 from 8 world cups last year, proving I was fastest on course as well. If a rider has a fast start, but sucks on the track, you won't be winning a world cup!

In summary, Yes 4X could learn a lot from these olympic events, and should be considered, but not all of it is realistic. UCI need to build more challenging courses for the riders, and they are slowly going in the right direction. If the courses get bigger/better (at the very least for world cups) it will show people what the sport can be, and give them something to aspire towards, and get people pumped on it.
The Skiiercross has been called many times now (by the Australian broadcaster, Channel 9) the best event of the Olympics, everyone is talking about it, and rightly so, it killed it!
4X could be something similar, and be equally as rad. 4X already enjoys more mainstream TV coverage than DH in Europe, showing that the average Joe TV viewer, is pumped on this type of racing, if we could take the courses to the next level it could be massive!
 
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