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Split Pivot existence?

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
2,508
822
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
If you go to the Split Pivot site it doesn't look updated since 2007. It doesn't specifically mention any companies planning on using it. It does state "patent pending". So did DW and Trek come to an agreement whereby ABP marches on and Split Pivot went away or is DW waiting on the patent to be awarded so he can start licensing the design and charging Trek? I did notice that the position of the chainstays and seatstays at the pivot are reversed between ABP & Split Pivot.
 

bradflyn

Chimp
Oct 27, 2008
23
0
Washington
This sure has been a long time waiting to see an answer to the patenting problems. Guessing from stuff on patent data sites, both may have had their pending patents rejected because of either ancient 1892 split pivot patent from Hugo Becker or an old old nicolai rolhoff g-boxx example bike that then used split pivot for the rear. It seems Trek or Dave started off thinking they were first but now it is just good to see they are working to make this simple idea used again. Also, Trek started to use the split pivot system without the floating shock idea on the fishers maybe cause free game now for all and they are the first at this????

I just got a trek this winter and it really does have a different feel but very similar for braking, like some fsr's I have rode in years past.
 

Jase76

Monkey
Aug 10, 2007
176
0
Australia
Word is that Rotec are planning on producing some Split Pivot bikes for 2011, I think we'll see something at Interbike.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
Word is that Rotec are planning on producing some Split Pivot bikes for 2011, I think we'll see something at Interbike.
seriously? Why don't they just "perfect" the lawwill design?

I wonder if it's cheaper to license the trek "design" vs. the dw design. I know "split-pivot" gets you street cred, but it's kind of a funny situation.
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,157
359
Roanoke, VA
We're starting to cut CNC parts Friday for ProjectX. We'll have development protos in the start gate by Mid-April, and whenever I can finish up the ID stuff we'll start taking orders. Colin Goldby of CG83 (HaveFaith on here, you know, that gearbox bike dude) is the lead engineer on this. Goddamn, he's fast!
Early fall is when I'm forecasting availability on the pilot production run. These things will be built 100% in Massachusetts at our Medford R+D and proto shop by huge geeks and former Fat Chance, Merlin and I.F. employees.

We started moving forward aggressively on ProjectX March 8th when DW and I settled on suspension kinematics and geometry. It's been a lot of scrambling and my ear is most definitely sore from the phone time and my mouse hand is a little tingly. I'm really, really excited about how well our team has worked, and how rapidly we were able to move this forward from a center line drawing to a race ready prototype. We have a little more time to do some tweaks with tubing before we start welding, but all of the machine parts are ready to go.

We're cutting metal sometime in the next month for the 150mm bikes too(Mothership and Motorhead).

The ProjectX is pretty neat.


I expect to go through 2 revisions this season as we integrate some of my crackhead biomimcry and aesthetic theories. Right now it's light and stiff, but I want to make sure I integrate the form language from the rest of the bikes we are currently working on for consistency's sake.
Look for a full launch at the USopen.
 
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sikocycles

Turbo Monkey
Feb 14, 2002
1,530
772
CT
Any chance of a AM type Split pivot 29er? Something in the 5 to 6" range?
Any info on the Project X? Travel and geometry? Love that it is made here on the east coast.
 
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sikocycles

Turbo Monkey
Feb 14, 2002
1,530
772
CT
I can't get behind all that travel for a 29'r personally. I like trail bikes that leave the ground, not stick to it!
My 6" 29er leaves the ground alot. Will have a 7" DH 29er very soon. Will be at diablo alot. Maybe a ride or 2 will change your mind :D
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,157
359
Roanoke, VA
My 6" 29er leaves the ground alot. Will have a 7" DH 29er very soon. Will be at diablo alot. Maybe a ride or 2 will change your mind :D
We actually have our own Top Secret lift-accessed test area up here in Franklin County where we will be doing most of our in- house testing. If you are going to get 300 hours of testing in, you better have a ski mountain 45 minutes from the shop! The other fruit of ProjectX will be one of the best new bikeparks in the country opening up in 2011!
I definitely want to try out one of those monster truck bikes though.

In my mind, the big advantage going with SplitPivot is working with DW on the geometry and suspension. Not only do we have frenetic machine-gun fire conversations, he has lots of insight into World Cup level racing demands that I don't.
 
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sikocycles

Turbo Monkey
Feb 14, 2002
1,530
772
CT
We actually have our own Top Secret lift-accessed test area up here in Franklin County where we will be doing most of our in- house testing. If you are going to get 300 hours of testing in, you better have a ski mountain 45 minutes from the shop! The other fruit of ProjectX will be one of the best new bikeparks in the country opening up in 2011!
I definitely want to try out one of those monster truck bikes though.
Interesting in what will be opening up in 2011. I am in Ct and can meet you at that secret location:).
Should have the bike built end of next month. Have all the parts just need the frame.
The ProjectX looks very interesting.
 

KillerSloth

Chimp
May 15, 2009
54
0
seriously? Why don't they just "perfect" the lawwill design?

I wonder if it's cheaper to license the trek "design" vs. the dw design. I know "split-pivot" gets you street cred, but it's kind of a funny situation.
I love my lawwill Rotec! Hopefully they don't change it... then again they did have a proto gearbox bike... so maybe split pivot gearbox Rotec?!
 

RoboS

Chimp
Sep 1, 2008
44
0
@SuspectDevice: Nice to see someone implemented ABP reasonably, unlike the Gary Fisher bikes (ABP messed up as much as possible)
 

Jase76

Monkey
Aug 10, 2007
176
0
Australia
seriously? Why don't they just "perfect" the lawwill design?

I wonder if it's cheaper to license the trek "design" vs. the dw design. I know "split-pivot" gets you street cred, but it's kind of a funny situation.
I love my lawwill Rotec! Hopefully they don't change it... then again they did have a proto gearbox bike... so maybe split pivot gearbox Rotec?!
I believe that the RL9 will be remaining Lawwill, just getting a freshen up to make it a bit lighter.http://www.roteccycles.com/News
They are going to be producing some other style frames as Split Pivot, AM, XC etc.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
oh please oh please oh please make an am lawwill frame.

interested in the new rl-9...could do without fancy tubeshapes and new graphics, but the other stuff sounds good.
 

Jase76

Monkey
Aug 10, 2007
176
0
Australia
interested in the new rl-9...could do without fancy tubeshapes and new graphics, but the other stuff sounds good.
Yeah, I love my RL9. Pretty much the only thing wrong with it is the frame weight, and maybe the HA, I'd like it at 64. If they address that then I'll buy an RLi for sure.
 

TheInedibleHulk

Turbo Monkey
May 26, 2004
1,886
0
Colorado
So did DW and Trek come to an agreement whereby ABP marches on and Split Pivot went away or is DW waiting on the patent to be awarded so he can start licensing the design and charging Trek?
As I heard it DW and Trek came to an agreement in which Trek would steal the design from DW and pay him nothing in return for him going and f-ing himself because he doesn't have a team of lawyers on retainer and what's he going to do about it. I could be misinformed, just what I heard on the grapevine.
 

bradflyn

Chimp
Oct 27, 2008
23
0
Washington
As I heard it DW and Trek came to an agreement in which Trek would steal the design from DW and pay him nothing in return for him going and f-ing himself because he doesn't have a team of lawyers on retainer and what's he going to do about it. I could be misinformed, just what I heard on the grapevine.
Since this design was patented in 1890, it is more than 17 years later so anyone can use it now for free and not stealing. I do not think anyone has to agree with anyone like any other single pivot design. This is probably why so many companies are using it whether they work with DW or Trek or figure out their own style of single pivot locations.

It is a sweet system but already very old.
 

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KillerSloth

Chimp
May 15, 2009
54
0
by "perfect", I mean update geometry, drop weight, add adjustability, things like that.
Yeah, I meant I hope they don't change the lawwill suspension. Could definitely be lower and lighter (although, I love that I don't have to worry about breaking the frame)
 

KillerSloth

Chimp
May 15, 2009
54
0
I wish they would make an AM Lawwill bike. I think it pedals pretty damn well, the only issue would be the lack of a full post...

The RLi sounds like it could be a winner! May have to start saving for that since I'm still on a 2006 frame (getting updates right now though)
 

davec113

Monkey
May 24, 2009
419
0
I think patentable ideas are supposed to be non-obvious. No offense to frame designers, but bike suspensions just don't fit into that category thus far.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
As I heard it DW and Trek came to an agreement in which Trek would steal the design from DW and pay him nothing in return for him going and f-ing himself because he doesn't have a team of lawyers on retainer and what's he going to do about it. I could be misinformed, just what I heard on the grapevine.
Or they both developed it at the same time...either way. I would also argue that DW has a very strong team of lawyers, as he's always apt to quash any attempt at a sunday copy. Not to say DW sits around with lawyers and cash all day, but when it comes to a patent challenge, he seems to be able to get er did.

I wish they would make an AM Lawwill bike. I think it pedals pretty damn well, the only issue would be the lack of a full post...

The RLi sounds like it could be a winner! May have to start saving for that since I'm still on a 2006 frame (getting updates right now though)
agreed...don't know why nobody pursues the lawwill suspension for more than pure DH. Reviewers raved about the 4banger, and I loved every lawwill I rode.

I think patentable ideas are supposed to be non-obvious. No offense to frame designers, but bike suspensions just don't fit into that category thus far.
Well, there are two, maybe three alternatives. Patent something just because you have the right to, ie specialized and horst/id damping, patent something innovative, patent a specific portion of the design...like vpp's counter-rotating links, dw-link's leverage ratios and wheelpaths, etc. In this case, the patent may come to dual shock activation, or leverage ratio, or pivot assembly, or main pivot location, or something like that. In the end, it probably won't matter that much, neither company will be able to sufficiently prove that they developed a completely new design that is unique to anything else out there.
 

davec113

Monkey
May 24, 2009
419
0
Yeti was going to release the 7 with split pivot and single, carbon fiber chainstay. Wonder what happened to that bike?
 

stinky6

Monkey
Dec 24, 2004
517
0
Monroe
A 6 inch Rotec Lawwill would be sick, so would a lighter, slacker, lower RL-9, hopefully that what the RLi is. Sully has mentioned split pivot bikes before, if it happens is another thing.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
Asstrick is still around, they make/order an AM lawwill bike.
:stop::bad::no:

I wanted one of those, and was planning on buying one, but the guy told me the xplosion shock or whatever they originally came with was just as good as anything else out there. A month after I said "no ma'am" he drops the shock in favor of whatever is on there now. Too bad so said. Those bikes are in desperate need of an update. Supposedly the havoc has one, but not here....wtf?
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,157
359
Roanoke, VA
Will it have a 73 or 83 mm BB and 135, 142 or 150 mm DOs? What is the weight you are shooting for? Shock length? Thanks!
222x70 shock for 205mm of travel. Somewhere between 9 and 9.25 pounds with shock is what the proto frame will weigh. We are also running a 3 position adjustable headtube. Slack will be perfect for about 200 people in the world. Steep will be ridable by mortals. Medium should be good for your average cat1.

The rest of the numbers are pretty simple. The Best. Trust us.