You must have a bad memory, I gave them kudos for updating their damping system when they finally did, although I did state that the chassi (32mm) was pretty outdated at the time.That's a sign of a comeback like Jm_ complaining about the boxxer when SRAM was stepping up their game
The REAL Prime Ministers (hayes brakes)
- Thread starter yuroshek
- Start date
"Feel" is subjective. Ergonomics is not about feel. It's about science. It's not about a pivot point- it's about how the product works, and how the product works with people. Biomechanics+ human factors+ engineering, that's sound ergonomic design.
The newest brakes from SRAM, Shimano, Formula, Magura and Hayes don't work properly for more than 60% of the population of the planet(anyone with a glove size smaller than medium). Moving the pivot that far from the bar does two absolutely horrible things. It makes it impossible to set the reach close enough to the bar for people with smaller hands. Moving the reach in reduces the stroke of the brake enough to make it mushy and less than fully powerful. The supposed ergonomic benefits just aren't there if the brakes are setup appropriately. In fact, the curve the lever travels in once you bring the reach into an appropriate position is actually biomechanically horrible. Bad biomechanics and even worse braking performance are what's in store for a huge portion of the world's population with current master cylinder designs.
A brake lever blade should absolutely be as close as possible to the grip without crushing fingers when it's bottomed out. Period. Anything other than that is wasting energy and sacrificing control. Brakes are to be applied with one finger, the index. Some riders with moto backgrounds can brake with their middle fingers, even then the brake lever must have as little throw as possible and no wastefull dead-stroke(marketing departments call that "modulation". There are plenty of ways to setup brakes that make them work well on a test bench, but from an integrative scientific standpoint, there is only one best way to design a brake lever that works effectively for the majority of the worlds population, and it's very different to what is currently being marketed.
The market must continually move forward to create profit, of course, but differentiation and novelty for their own sake do not innovation make.
I love this industry, and almost everything that we have released over the last decade has been a marked improvement over what preceded it, but brakes have been perverted by the need to maintain novelty in a way that keeps consumers buying new stuff by creating marketing features without merit. Industrial Design and consumer perception have clearly taken precedence over fully-integrated product development and human-factors analysis at every brake maker.
We are so far gone that there is almost no turning back. There are hundreds of people in the US alone that are stockpiling things like non-series Shimano levers that don't use Servowave and have a proper pivot location. There are no voices in the media with the balls to mention that consumers are being duped. There are very few riders that have ever had brakes that function appropriately. Going from one sub-optimal setup to another makes the new crop of brakes pretty great for most consumers- but it ignores the fact that their brakes were never appropriately setup in the first place.
Now if I could hook up a Mag mastercylinder to those new calipers, I'd stop whining. At least I could reach the brake levers then...
The newest brakes from SRAM, Shimano, Formula, Magura and Hayes don't work properly for more than 60% of the population of the planet(anyone with a glove size smaller than medium). Moving the pivot that far from the bar does two absolutely horrible things. It makes it impossible to set the reach close enough to the bar for people with smaller hands. Moving the reach in reduces the stroke of the brake enough to make it mushy and less than fully powerful. The supposed ergonomic benefits just aren't there if the brakes are setup appropriately. In fact, the curve the lever travels in once you bring the reach into an appropriate position is actually biomechanically horrible. Bad biomechanics and even worse braking performance are what's in store for a huge portion of the world's population with current master cylinder designs.
A brake lever blade should absolutely be as close as possible to the grip without crushing fingers when it's bottomed out. Period. Anything other than that is wasting energy and sacrificing control. Brakes are to be applied with one finger, the index. Some riders with moto backgrounds can brake with their middle fingers, even then the brake lever must have as little throw as possible and no wastefull dead-stroke(marketing departments call that "modulation". There are plenty of ways to setup brakes that make them work well on a test bench, but from an integrative scientific standpoint, there is only one best way to design a brake lever that works effectively for the majority of the worlds population, and it's very different to what is currently being marketed.
The market must continually move forward to create profit, of course, but differentiation and novelty for their own sake do not innovation make.
I love this industry, and almost everything that we have released over the last decade has been a marked improvement over what preceded it, but brakes have been perverted by the need to maintain novelty in a way that keeps consumers buying new stuff by creating marketing features without merit. Industrial Design and consumer perception have clearly taken precedence over fully-integrated product development and human-factors analysis at every brake maker.
We are so far gone that there is almost no turning back. There are hundreds of people in the US alone that are stockpiling things like non-series Shimano levers that don't use Servowave and have a proper pivot location. There are no voices in the media with the balls to mention that consumers are being duped. There are very few riders that have ever had brakes that function appropriately. Going from one sub-optimal setup to another makes the new crop of brakes pretty great for most consumers- but it ignores the fact that their brakes were never appropriately setup in the first place.
Now if I could hook up a Mag mastercylinder to those new calipers, I'd stop whining. At least I could reach the brake levers then...
What your saing about ergo... I get it.... But this new set address's the dead stroke factor. All I can really say is that these brakes canbe set really close to the bar, really far inboard, and have plenty of power. Given mine are currently a bit away from the bar, but thats because I now have a total of two rides on the pads, their not quite burned in yet.
I went to the strokers two things happened... I got a lever that works better....and I got a brake that works better with my arms.... Its a very noticable increase in how well it works with the body, no more arm pump, less pressure needed, lever blade fits under the knuckle just right...Non ergo beni's were easier setup, easier pad replacement, tool free adjustment.
since when is dead stroke considered modulation??
Since he
1: made that up
2: has been adjusting brakes incorrectly for years, having never actually felt what true modulation is.
That's all I can figure.
Suspect: I'm a small guy with hands smaller than a lot of dh riders. My shimano brakes do exactly what you say they don't. And in fact I'm able to put the engagement point closer to the bar and with less dead swing then every other brake I've owned, which includes avids, older shimanos, and old hayes.
Everything you say about lever swing WOULD apply if levers on the outward pivot designs were straight. But they're anything but. I can't even remember the last time I had any sort of discomfort in my hands/forearms from prolonged braking. If these new designs were so ergonomically inferior, why is that the case?
Mickey is bordering on "Guy in belltower" looney guys, you do realize? Arguing with him is pretty much useless. If it's not a conspiracy or catastrophe, he's not relating to anybody on this one. Might as well argue "fanny pack or cargo pockets" for commuting with him. It'll all end in confusion and big words. 
You know what they say about guys with small hands
+ repMickey is bordering on "Guy in belltower" looney guys, you do realize? Arguing with him is pretty much useless. If it's not a conspiracy or catastrophe, he's not relating to anybody on this one. Might as well argue "fanny pack or cargo pockets" for commuting with him. It'll all end in confusion and big words.
You should hear what happens when DW and I talk on the phone.
when two internet gods talk, us mortals cant hear it.
Clearly you don't ride enough
Nah, all my bikes have coaster brakes.Clearly you don't ride enough
60% of the population have small hands? sounds like Fox News data there
Whilst I agree that the miles-out lever pivots put the actual lever blade path at a comparatively bad angle to the direction your finger pulls (more on that in a second), a lot of the claims you made there were just flat out wrong. Dead stroke is not modulation, nor is it affected by the reach adjuster (seriously...?), and as Kidwoo said, the lever blades are shaped to put the actual finger-contact points in the same position as any other brakes relative to the grip. The only difference it's actually making is the direction that the finger-contact point of the lever blade moves when you pull the brake, and as I worked out after changing to M810 Saints after owning older Shimano and Avid setups, whilst there is a slightly less comfortable lever blade path in terms of the direction it pulls, pivot points that are further out cause the lever blades to jam on your middle finger less, because the tip of the lever is moving slightly "inwards" (ie away from your fingers and towards the stem).
It's actually not a big deal at all. Feels different yep, but despite what you say, it has minor advantages as well as minor disadvantages. And it's pretty funny that you want a set of the old Mags instead - the pivots on those things are actually a long way out anyway, especially compared to older Shimano levers or anything Avid makes. There is so much more that goes into making a brake work well than just the pivot position.
According to Fox News, 75% of people are below average.
Uh, that's very very possible. You can mathematically have 99.999999999% of people below average (all but a single person). As long as we're defining average to be the mean and not the median (which is almost always the case). All it takes is some kind of long tail distribution of the population.
Yep, but lacking recent sightings of Superman, I'd say the point stands.