stiffer suspension for going faster?
- Thread starter xemini
- Start date
going faster normally means hitting stuff harder, hence the need for stiffer suspension. if you are happy with how your bike rides now, no point changing it.
there was an interview with gee in dirt a few years ago about his set up, it was much stiffer than what other riders would use so that it would be in the correct geometry for hitting corners ect and not wallow all over the place. allowing him to brake later into corners. its a trade off, stiffer suspension, the quicker your bike settles it self, but the harder it will be over bumps.
there was an interview with gee in dirt a few years ago about his set up, it was much stiffer than what other riders would use so that it would be in the correct geometry for hitting corners ect and not wallow all over the place. allowing him to brake later into corners. its a trade off, stiffer suspension, the quicker your bike settles it self, but the harder it will be over bumps.
I have found that running stiff suspension has reduced arm pump and that it helps immensely in keeping the bike level and composed when things get crazy - like when you take the wrong line through a steep rock garden. I ride a lot of really steep trails, so I setup my fork with a considerable amount of low speed compression, as well as a high spring rate. I run less than an inch of sag on my 40 and it feels great for steep, sketchy trails.
Soft front and rear, let the valving and tuning do its job. If its a tech course then a bit stiffer or if its BIG hits then a little more comp.
I have added a bit of rebound to control hte rear and it seems to do better than the fast rebound. SO far.....Ill ride it this way for a bit and see...
I dont think there is any wrong or right as suspension and wheel paths change as do rider style weight and preference... So I dont know i just tune till it works and once in a while throw it way out there to adjust and see if Im missing a particular setting I like...
Just my .02 hope it adds to something besides confusion... LOL
I have added a bit of rebound to control hte rear and it seems to do better than the fast rebound. SO far.....Ill ride it this way for a bit and see...
I dont think there is any wrong or right as suspension and wheel paths change as do rider style weight and preference... So I dont know i just tune till it works and once in a while throw it way out there to adjust and see if Im missing a particular setting I like...
Just my .02 hope it adds to something besides confusion... LOL
Fairly straightfoward actually. Rear end compresses> BB/bike drops> lower center of mass>easier to turn
It had to do with the bike keeping balanced geometry.
I will add in MY experience softer has been faster, it gave me more control, and although it feels slow, i went from limited, to not being able to reach my limit. just my .02
Yeah it doesnt feel lightning fast mushing through stuff but I pass people all the time in the nasty and so far it works well for me. Yeah when your not topping all over the place its easier to just pin it and go. Not too mention while some pick a line through stuff I just hit the straight line and go.
I know thats not always the case but the jedi sits centered in its travel and drops down the rear when braking and loads nicely as well as the short chainstay plays a major role in this as well allowing me to run it softer as well.
I stiffen my suspension when I am racing really rough and fast tracks. for the PA ProGRT this weekend, I stepped up to a 450 lbs spring on my revolt and up to a yellow spring in my 40.
-KT
-KT
I kinda wondered about it "feeling" faster.I have mine so stiff that a don't use the last inch of travel on my boxxer wc.Of course I live in Phoenix ,and all we have is rocky tech stuff,and if I don't run it stiff I bash pedals and bottom brackets all day.I used to own Foes's where you could run it softer and bash through stuff.Didn't Cedric and sombody else even run shorter travel bikes on wc courses?
I just always feel like I'm waiting on the suspension to return or do something .I do like the instant feedback from the ground so I know what the tires are doing and when they'll break loose.I never get arm pump either, so maybe that has something to do with it.Does anyone have a link to that article mentioned earlier?I'd hate to find out I'm only "feeling" faster.That would suck...again.
I just always feel like I'm waiting on the suspension to return or do something .I do like the instant feedback from the ground so I know what the tires are doing and when they'll break loose.I never get arm pump either, so maybe that has something to do with it.Does anyone have a link to that article mentioned earlier?I'd hate to find out I'm only "feeling" faster.That would suck...again.
That was kinda rambling.
LOL Good sense of humor...
Kept the bike from pitching forwards too much during heavy braking. For the average rider on the average course I think it'd be excessive, but for a world champ riding stupid fast/steep stuff, then I can see how it'd be beneficial.
My setup (fork in particular) hasn't so much stiffened as deadened over the years. The faster you go, the more stability becomes important, in my experience. I find it feels a bit sketchy to try to ride a bike fast when the suspension moves excessively. That said, I'm not a world cup rider, and there are plenty of riders who are much much faster than I am on considerably different setups.
it really depends on the rider to some degree, but a firmer ride will definitely allow more of your ride energy to be conserved as opposed to compressing the suspension. Just think why a hardtail does better at climbing than a DH sled (ignore gearing for the moment).
But the rider bit comes in from the perspective of ride stability at speed. Quicker response from the suspension via higher compression damping/higher low speed rebound will make for a relatively more unstable ride. That's the price i guess.
But the rider bit comes in from the perspective of ride stability at speed. Quicker response from the suspension via higher compression damping/higher low speed rebound will make for a relatively more unstable ride. That's the price i guess.
I reckon it's not necessarily better but sometimes you need to run harder suspension when you get faster. I used to run a 300lb shock spring and soft boxxer spring, but now I can't nearly get away with springs that soft, they just bottom everywhere. I'm a massive hack but I feel like my bike just hacks through the travel and bottoms too easily, even with reasonable amounts of comp damping, if I run much more than 30% sag.
I would think (my occasional racer point of view) that the more your mass is moving vertically (up and down due to soft suspension) the more you lose in forward momentum. If you had a stiffer suspension you are going to have less vertical, or perpendicular, movement and therefore carry more forward momentum (skipping over the tops of things).
Obviously the trade off is control. I would think that WC riders with lightning fast reflexes, and superior balance, can over come this with their ability to stay on top of the bike and therefore it would result in a faster set up. The average cat 1& 2 racers would probably benefit more from a softer suspension that is easier to control.
Now..I can barely spell physics and don't have much to base this off of, except for a decade or so of riding and what I think is logical.
Obviously the trade off is control. I would think that WC riders with lightning fast reflexes, and superior balance, can over come this with their ability to stay on top of the bike and therefore it would result in a faster set up. The average cat 1& 2 racers would probably benefit more from a softer suspension that is easier to control.
Now..I can barely spell physics and don't have much to base this off of, except for a decade or so of riding and what I think is logical.
I'm not sure the vertical/perpendicular movement thing is the best way to look at it. And in any case, wouldn't having softer suspension make have LESS movement like that? If you hit a rock with a rigid bike, your whole body/bike has to get over the rock's full height. If you have suspension, the bike will move less in a vertical plane...that's what it seems to me in any case.
As far as what will work best- stiff or soft- there's no way to tell in advance. Depends a lot on the terrain, rider, skill level and all that. Just gotta try different things out and be suspicious of your own sensations- I think there's real truth in riders thinking stiffer setups are faster because they get bounced around more. Speed is a relative thing: go 40 mph on a smooth road and it's not a big deal, but 40 mph on a real trail can feel like the speed of light. And at least I know from the road side of things that the faster setups can be counterintuitive. For example, most people think 23c tires pumped up to their max will be fastest, and it really does feel like they are a lot of the time. But numerous studies suggest that lower pressures and wider tires are faster because a high pressure 23c tire doesn't deform to the road and act like a sort of low level suspension.
Yeah, when you brake, your weight shifts forward, so the front suspension compresses, and the bike steepens up. Having the rear end compress under braking counteracts that.
Stiffening up the fork at least means the bike will stay up OVER the bumps instead of falling into them. You'll also retain the geometry you want under braking and on steep sections.
The extra speed through corners from a stiff setup is nice too...
The extra speed through corners from a stiff setup is nice too...
a properly set up suspension will allow you to have more traction and therefore brake into turns. Braking later into turns gives you more control, better setup and faster times.
A "stiffer" spring rate may give you more pop off bumps, ie skipping over them.
Which is faster depends on the rider, I think. To me traction is more paramount, but to people who don't brake, ie WC riders, having a bike that absorbs just enough might be the best, and then having travel in reserve for massive hits might be the better option.
I think the vertical movement via pedaling is somewhat irrelevant. Most good riders have the ability to not pedal like a monkey and reduce suspension interaction for the most part.
A "stiffer" spring rate may give you more pop off bumps, ie skipping over them.
Which is faster depends on the rider, I think. To me traction is more paramount, but to people who don't brake, ie WC riders, having a bike that absorbs just enough might be the best, and then having travel in reserve for massive hits might be the better option.
I think the vertical movement via pedaling is somewhat irrelevant. Most good riders have the ability to not pedal like a monkey and reduce suspension interaction for the most part.
The best rule of thumb I've ever heard/used is to set your suspension so that it just bottoms on the biggest feature on the course. Makes sense to me. If you've got it, why not use it?
That's how I tune for whatever course I'm on. Generally
btw, your avatar would make one sweet shirt
I had a WC Stab great rig, lots of fun, I ran the std and then swtiched to the FB setup it was a marked improvement over the std brake DOPE pos.
Not only did it keep the bike from pitching, but it did pre load the bike off roots ramps jump faces etc nothing seemed to slow it down, it only made the bike go faster, the only let down of the Stab for me was acceleration and starting [pedaling intially up to speed, one ya got going it was a hell of a ride, for someone like FB it explained to me how he did what he did. Love3 him on the Kona Stab.
Now I have to use more tech heel loading off stuff and into ramp faces does a similar thing, but harder to time esp at speed, but all still fun.
I think the sus debate has alot to do more with how fast you are really ablke to ride, if you can go as fast as the pro setups then harder will help, the plow setups are almost gone now, even peaty pops alot of stuff he used to plow through.
If ya a slower rider or need more ground control then a softer setting front and rear with rebound sets to match FnR is probably best, if ya like to pop off
everything and jump inot sections or over them then harder is best but ya need to committ more and trust ya suspension at speed it will work but if ya ride slow into rough sections on hard settings then it can get interesting especially if steep.
Being able to run LSR and HSR on the Boxxer to me has also added another factor into this, so you can run ya slow speed rebound slow enough not to pack so in it's 1st5 25% of travel it maintains traction, yet once the hits due to increased speed or elevation on the way down the HSR high speed rebound can take over and help this also maintains good bike GEO and minimises pitching, I noticed this on the Nats DH course recently, my DHR maintained very consistent geo I never once felt pitched
even when I did get over my head a few times, once I trusted it it just got better.
Now I need a Vivid to match, I'm digging LSR/HSR it rocks more so thaan LSC/HSC which if the fork/Shock was valved correctly for me I doubt I would need on the corectr spring rate.
Will find out when I get a Vivid and have it pushed for me and bike [DHR].
Did love that ride on the Stab though, but prefer my DHR
I have always ridden with more compression to keep my fork up and my shock more dead feeling so I can deal less with picking line and deal more with going straight.
The last few weeks I have turned up my pro pedal to keep my dhx a little higher/stiffer and I like the way my bike rides alot better. Im faster out of corners and alot faster through continous bumpy rocky sections.
The last few weeks I have turned up my pro pedal to keep my dhx a little higher/stiffer and I like the way my bike rides alot better. Im faster out of corners and alot faster through continous bumpy rocky sections.
There's definitely more to it than the bottom out aspect.
in a word, duh. Travel-wise though, that's an effective mindset for tuning. I prefer to have some travel "reserve" if possible, as in there is still more travel available even on the biggest feature. That way, if you go even faster, you still have a cushion before death.
Honestly, my parts probably aren't tuned that way, but that's the way I like to think.
Honestly, my parts probably aren't tuned that way, but that's the way I like to think.
Very true. Example, this is where I got my '10 Boxxer Team with stock spring bottom out for the first time (I'm 160lb). It was a smooth track where I couldn't get more than 6.5" in a normal run. I was too slow and got pitched forward on this double, but having an appropriate spring rate helped my fork accomodate this rough landing.
Note how the fork bent
but both the bike and me stood that test.
This thread reminded me of the slow rebound thread. I took onboard some of the advice in that thread and slowed down my rebound a fair amount, which definitely improved the bikes overall ability to eat up the hits, it just kind of deadend the impact. I have found recently though that the bike will feel a bit off balance when hitting berms hard, basically feeling like the back is compressing more than the front. It can be similar over some rough sections, though not to the same degree. The obvious solution is to increase the LSC, but my question would be do I need to rethink my rebound speed because of this? I remember in the slow rebound thread, some guy said that you can control stability by either having heavier rebound damping, or with more LSC and slightly lighter rebound damping. What do folk think of these suggestions?