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The future of the automobile is electric. And here is how it can be done.

I.van

Monkey
Apr 15, 2007
188
0
Australia
The further a wire has to travel carrying power, the more power that is wasted.
therefore having the power plant under the hood still wastes the least power..
1+1=2
Do you do any research before you make these claims? :rolleyes:
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ask/electricity_faqs.asp#electric_rates2 said:
In 2007, national-level losses were 6.5% of total electricity disposition excluding direct use.
Why does a debate like this have soo many similarities to the AGW debate? :rant:
 
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woodsguy

gets infinity MPG
Mar 18, 2007
1,083
1
Sutton, MA
What are the other alternatives? E85? It actually uses more fuel in the process of growing, refining, and transporting it than is produced. Same for hydrogen.

Electric is the answer. They should be using the money they are wasting on hydrogen, E85, etc and instead spend it to develop more efficient batteries and solar panels. Right now solar panels are about 20% efficient. Imagine if they could get that to 50% or 80%. Almost anything could easily be solar powered. Houses, office buildings, big box stores, cell phones, laptops, cars, trains, planes, and cargo ships.
 
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zdubyadubya

Turbo Monkey
Apr 13, 2008
1,273
96
Ellicott City, MD
huh, no. Is it a good read?
really good read. and hits ALOT of the same points you did (kind of uncannily, which is why i posted. :)). what caught my attention was you explaining how electric cars could be used to also supply the grid with extra available energy (while they are sitting plugged in during the work day). The article is really insightful into not so much electric car technology, but rather how the "grid" itsself works and how power is moved.

highly recommended for anyone reading this thread!
 

C.P.

Monkey
Jan 18, 2004
547
8
SouthEastern Massachusetts
really good read. and hits ALOT of the same points you did (kind of uncannily, which is why i posted. :)). what caught my attention was you explaining how electric cars could be used to also supply the grid with extra available energy (while they are sitting plugged in during the work day). The article is really insightful into not so much electric car technology, but rather how the "grid" itsself works and how power is moved.

highly recommended for anyone reading this thread!
Thanks, I'll check it out. Coincidentally, I work in the energy industry, specifically Energy Engineering and Building Automation Systems, with previous experience in photovoltaic design & installation, and a lot of what I do interfaces with the elec and gas energy technologies... :homer:
 

C.P.

Monkey
Jan 18, 2004
547
8
SouthEastern Massachusetts
Electric is the answer. They should be using the money they are wasting on hydrogen, E85, etc and instead spend it to develop more efficient batteries and solar panels. Right now solar panels are about 20% efficient. Imagine if they could get that to 50% or 80%. Almost anything could easily be solar powered. Houses, office buildings, big box stores, cell phones, laptops, cars, trains, planes, and cargo ships.
Well, as I stated before this all sounds good, but if you walked a week in my shoes, and saw the literally millions of KWH that are consumed by entities that run wastefully b/c they dont have the $$ to upgrade (commercial buildings when not occupied, municipal & school buildings with no cash to upgrade their HVAC & lighting systems, and a ton of large residential buildings with no incentive for tenants to save energy...the list goes on & on), you would be shocked...this all cant happen overnight. Add to that SOLAR is big bucks, and hasn't really come down in cost in the past 2-3 years, b/c some public (read federal & state) incentive programs are slowly running out of $. In fact, the cost of solar when compared to grid supplied energy (currently) is even less attractive then it once was in the past couple years, so the financial incentive isn't as attractive, and it's even a tougher sell...

Right now, there are so many things that need to be taken care of on the consumption side before we solve the problems of renewable energy production overnight. 1st thing being grid controls (otherwise known as smart grid). Powering literally EVERYTHING with renewable energy is NOT possible, and wont be for a LONG time, or maybe ever. Right now as the elec grid stands, it could only accept at most approx 30% input of intermittent renewable sources of energy. Any more and the stability of the grid is unmanageable, and if we were to force the grid to operate (in it's current form) with more then 30% renewable input it could lead to massive black-outs, and it's because we don't have the level of automated demand controls within the grid that would be required to limit and control power consumption to match the intermittent production of renewable energy, among many other factors.
 

woodsguy

gets infinity MPG
Mar 18, 2007
1,083
1
Sutton, MA
With super efficient solar we won't need much of a "grid". Like has been said earlier much of the power is lost in transmission. We could get rid of many of these unsightly powerlines and replace them with small localized plants and generators.
 

kazlx

Patches O'Houlihan
Aug 7, 2006
6,985
1,957
Tustin, CA
The biggest problem for me with an electric vehicle is recharge time. I don't want to wait for the thing to recharge. For day to day driving it is fine, but long trips become a pain in the butt and I don't want to rent a car when I already own a vehicle I can drive. I see something like hydrogen becoming more popluar because the infrastructure could be set up much like gasoline...aside from production of it and all the other issues. Electricity technology has a long way to go before it could power a majority of American transportation.
 

woodsguy

gets infinity MPG
Mar 18, 2007
1,083
1
Sutton, MA
Go back and read my first post again. I addressed charging and batteries.

Hydorgen is way too complicated, too expensive, too much maintenance, might not work in the real world (contaminants), very expensive infrasturcture, and uses way more energy to produce than you get out of it (the biggest problem is the compression to a liquid). And on top of all that it is just a generator powering electric motors. So when a really good battery comes out all this money invested into development and infrastructure would be wasted. It's a dead end. And personally, I think it is set up by the oil companies to distract us from devolping a better battery. And if it does get adopted they will reap the benefits because they can use their refineries and infrastructure. A battery powered electric car will be the demise of many of the oil companies and they know it. They will fight a widespread battery powered electric car to the death.
 

kazlx

Patches O'Houlihan
Aug 7, 2006
6,985
1,957
Tustin, CA
Oh yes, because battery swap out centers are a logical solution :rolleyes: Have a seat over there for an hour while we change your batteries sir.
 
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kazlx

Patches O'Houlihan
Aug 7, 2006
6,985
1,957
Tustin, CA
Explain why they wouldn't be.
Because now you're talking at least a 30 minute job for something that people won't be able to do themselves. Are you going to have a certified battery technician swap those out? What would the service fee look for something like that. I can do brakes in 20 minutes and shops charge $150+. People fill their own cars with gas (unless you live in Oregon for some reason) and it takes less than five minutes. Sorry, but battery (alone) powered vehicles are not even feasible at this point. That's why they have sucked in the past, continue to suck and will suck for the foreseeable future.

Hydrogen specifically may not be the answer, but it has to be something that is user serviceable and quick, just like gas. The other answer is going to be hybrids for the interim.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,029
7,549
Battery swaps can be done with robots. < 5 minutes, just like an automated carwash only with the robots working beneath the car.
 

kazlx

Patches O'Houlihan
Aug 7, 2006
6,985
1,957
Tustin, CA
Is that 100 years from now? We still have monkeys changing oil, which is much simpler than batteries.
 

woodsguy

gets infinity MPG
Mar 18, 2007
1,083
1
Sutton, MA
Battery swaps can be done with robots. < 5 minutes, just like an automated carwash only with the robots working beneath the car.
That is what I was envisioning. They would be like a quick lube place where you drive over a pit and robots or people below would swap the batteries. But again these would mostly be only used for long trips. If the electric car has a range of 100 - 200 miles most people would rarely need to swap their batteries since they can charge their batteries just about any time they are parked whether it be at a charging station and/or the solar panel on the roof.

Another (rather extreme) idea I had was a lane on the highway that shoots bursts of microwaves under your car to charge it. Then you wouldn't even need to stop! :)
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
40,931
13,129
Portland, OR
Is that 100 years from now? We still have monkeys changing oil, which is much simpler than batteries.
Explain to me how it is easier to drain the oil and change the filter in a car than it would be to swap a battery?

If you design the battery to be quick changed:



Do you change the oil in your car more than once a day?
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,029
7,549
Another idea for achieving long-range point-to-point transport in a post-oil/EV world is loading small EVs onto electric trains designed to carry them. Rinspeed envisioned this with their "UC?" concept:



http://www.rinspeed.com/pages/cars/uc/pre-uc.htm

The goal is to create a new mobility concept that integrates individual car ownership and public transportation. A transverse loading system using custom railcars allows loading and unloading of numerous &#8220;UC?&#8221; vehicles simultaneously and in a very short time. Train passages are booked and reserved online directly from the vehicle. Harman International provides the permanent 3G internet connection as well as marvelous sound on wheels. VoIP2Car technology provides IP telephone service, video chat, video conferences, e-mail and many more features in the &#8220;UC?&#8221;.

Integrated charging stations on board the custom railcars ensure that upon arrival at the destination the &#8220;UC?&#8221; battery is once again fully charged for maximum operating range. During the train trip drivers can visit the train restaurant, use any of the other train amenities or spend time in the privacy of their cars.

With this mobility concept Rinspeed elegantly circumvents the obstacle of limited operating range that so far has kept many interested parties from switching to zero-emission vehicles. As Frank M. Rinderknecht sees it: &#8220;I can make more efficient use of my time than spending it driving on a boring highway. I&#8217;d rather visit the train restaurant or retreat to work in my car.&#8221; The Swiss visionary is already in discussions with international railroad companies about his new mobility concept.
 

zdubyadubya

Turbo Monkey
Apr 13, 2008
1,273
96
Ellicott City, MD
Hmmm, gonna need a grid of sorts for something like this...:busted:
Not if they were powered by solar panels imbedded in the road! :)
Hey woodsguy. i kinda joked about this earlier to C.P., but I think that YOU should read the July issue of National Geographic. it has a really good article about the current state of the "grid" in this country. It will help you to understand a little more of where C.P. is coming from. A couple of your comments have some really good potential, but I think there are more obstacles in their way than you have thought of yet. Check out the article for some great info! :thumb:
 

C.P.

Monkey
Jan 18, 2004
547
8
SouthEastern Massachusetts
Like a larger scale version of the ones they use for road signs.

I'll take a stab at what that solar array on that sign produces, then you can start running the numbers on just how much has to happen to make some of these ideas work in the real world, and even with these "really high efficiency solar panels" you keep bringing up...
In that picture, I see 4 panels (lets say 160 watt rating, they look kinda small) wired in 1 series string. If so, they produce (at best temp/sunlight conditions) roughly a total of 760watts. Since those trailer have batteries (battery losses) & a charge controller plus the addition of wiring losses etc, I'd be willing to bet the total energy stored is roughly 15-18% less then best that the solar array has as a rating, so lets say roughly 650Watts (a pretty high estimate, not taking cloudy days, temps and age of batteries into consideration). If the sign was placed in a latitude (like here in state of MA) the avg # of usable solar hours per day is roughly 4.3 hours(based on annual avg). So to figure out how much KWH they produce using avg daily solar energy production here in MA, 650/1000 X 4.3 = 2.7 KWH per day (avg). Not much. To give you an idea, an average household in the US uses between 25 & 30 KWH a day. The avg electric car needs roughly 50KWH per charge (for an avg of 100 or so miles). You'll now start to see some of the reasons why this is not an easy problem to solve as you think it is...
 
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CrabJoe StretchPants

Reincarnated Crab Walking Head Spinning Bruce Dick
Nov 30, 2003
14,163
2,484
Groton, MA
Explain to me how it is easier to drain the oil and change the filter in a car than it would be to swap a battery?

If you design the battery to be quick changed:



Do you change the oil in your car more than once a day?
Have you not seen the batteries in current electric cars?
 

kazlx

Patches O'Houlihan
Aug 7, 2006
6,985
1,957
Tustin, CA
Another issue with batteries is you buy a new car, with new batteries. When you go get the batteries swapped, do they give you someone's five year old batteries? Then some schmuck can get your brand new recharged batteries. Sorry, but most of the possibilities are pipe dreams.
 

kazlx

Patches O'Houlihan
Aug 7, 2006
6,985
1,957
Tustin, CA
Have you not seen the batteries in current electric cars?


Surely you jest. Just whip that thousand pounds of batteries, all wired together, right out and flip them into a charger right quick. It's that easy folks....:rolleyes:

Batteries required to power a 2,000+lb vehicle are a little different than a cordless drill. Have you seen the setup for electric forklifts? And those are a small scale compared to a vehicle...you need a forklift to just move the damn things.
 
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IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
Have you not seen the batteries in current electric cars?
yep. batteries in cars are a integral part of their design and take up a massive amount of room. Tesla does a great job putting the batteries in a ideal position for performance, but swapping it out is a nightmare.

the Volt's battery system is also massive.
 

woodsguy

gets infinity MPG
Mar 18, 2007
1,083
1
Sutton, MA
The Nissan Leaf has a 440 pound battery pack (a modular system could divide that up into 12 batteries weighing 37 lbs each) that give the Leaf a 100 mile range and can be 80% charged in 30 minutes.

A good start but if you look at the progression of computers and cell phones those numbers should improve dramatically.
 
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IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
That's one of the possible alternatives that Tesla is considering for the Model S sedan. This brings a whole different set of problems with it. Even smaller batteries will weigh several hundred pounds, making them difficult to handle. There are also safety issues with handling high voltage batteries. You also need a distribution infrastructure for the batteries and automakers have to standardize on common pack formats to make the whole idea viable. It's not like popping into a drug store for a set of AAs for you camera. Tesla's bright idea just goes to show that electric cars have a long way to go before they can replace internal combustion engines completely.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/21/tesla-model-s-sedan-could-have-swappable-battery-pack/
 

kazlx

Patches O'Houlihan
Aug 7, 2006
6,985
1,957
Tustin, CA
The Nissan Leaf has a 440 pound battery pack (a modular system could divide that up into 12 batteries weighing 37 lbs each) that give the Leaf a 100 mile range and can be 80% charged in 30 minutes.

A good start but if you look at the progression of computers and cell phones those numbers should improve dramically.
So to drive 250 miles to Vegas I would only need to swap out batteries twice each way then...good to know.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,029
7,549
To give you an idea, an average household in the US uses between 25 & 30 KWH a day. The avg electric car needs roughly 50KWH per charge (for an avg of 100 or so miles). You'll now start to see some of the reasons why this is not an easy problem to solve as you think it is...
What's your source for household electricity usage?

I ask because you're way off for the BEV number. The Leaf has a 24 kWh pack for its nominally 100 mile range, so I doubt it's swallowing 50 kWh per charge. :rolleyes: Hell, even a Tesla "only" has a 53 kWh battery, and it's going way further than 100 miles if it drains that pack. Typical energy consumption numbers thrown about for general EVs are in the neighborhood of 200 Wh/mile.

(For reference I used 32ish Wh/mile to go 20-24 mph on my electric bicycle, which, although useful, was hardly a car replacement ultimately.)
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
40,931
13,129
Portland, OR
As a commuter, I am averaging 60 miles on the bike a day. That is to and from work, plus a run for lunch, plus a fun ride somewhere in the middle. The Empluse 10.0 can do 100 miles on a charge (testing shows 130+ with mixed riding) and a 110v charge takes about 6 hours from dead to full.

So I can charge the bike overnight, get a full days work, errands, and a 20 mile fun run before I have to worry about charging. If I was in downtown Portland, I could use a quick charge station (220v) and have a full charge in about 3 hours. Or I could charge it at work and have a full charge by lunch, and a full charge at the end of the day.

Would it make it to Vegas? Not on a single charge. But if I charged at every stop (80 miles a stint on a sportbike) and stayed overnight somewhere, I could make it in about 2 days. I am actually looking forward to doing that real soon. Damn I want that bike!

<edit> And like Toshi's eBike, this will not replace my gas powered moto for extended road tripping. But it would work as a commuter 9 months out of the year and would also be fun on track days!
 
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kazlx

Patches O'Houlihan
Aug 7, 2006
6,985
1,957
Tustin, CA
Something like the motorcycle would be great for commuting, although depending on the price tag I'm not sure how much you would actually save. I ride an R1 (the same bike I know you have had) and routinely get @30mpg. I think the hard part for most of America to swallow would be spending $15K+ on a vehicle that can't make road trips or serve all of your needs. Also, I have never seen any electric vehicles address the idea of a truck. There are just a lot of hurdles to purely electric vehicles that aren't simple to address or implement, especially to replace an industry with an immense infrastructure...all politics aside.