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Which DH brakes?

bballe336

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2005
1,757
0
MA
I'd like to get some input and advice on some new brakes.

I need a set of brakes with levers that get close to the bars (as close as avid juicy's or hayes mags), a good amount of power, consistent lever feel, don't fade during long runs. I have avid juicy's right now, and they fade and don't make enough power. Though ergonomically the levers feel pretty good.

I know that I don't want the current saints. I don't like the feel of the servowave levers, and when the levers are cranked in the brakes don't seem to work very well, and seem a bit unpredictable.


I'm considering the avid code r, formula the ones, and gustavs. My only concern with the forumlas is that the levers may not be adjustable in far enough, anyone else with small hands have any input on that? Or on any of the other brakes I mentioned?

Thanks for any help or input.
 
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daisycutter

Turbo Monkey
Apr 8, 2006
1,651
124
New York City
Big S Saints have been very predictable for me all season. They very well for me and I keep my levers close to the handlebar start with. Anyone else have "when the levers are cranked in the brakes don't seem to work very well, and seem a bit unpredictable" issue?
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
Big S Saints have been very predictable for me all season. They very well for me and I keep my levers close to the handlebar start with. Anyone else have "when the levers are cranked in the brakes don't seem to work very well, and seem a bit unpredictable" issue?
:stupid:

I love my saints. I have the levers adjusted super close to the bar. So much so that I have maybe 1cm between the lever and grip. They are super positive feeling and don't fade. I had issues with them "dropping" but that ended up being due to a bad bleed. Bled it with CHF, and now we're a happy couple.

If you rule out saint from the beginning, you probably won't get many recommendations. People like saints or formulas, with avids in whatever variety coming up next. I'm not a huge fan of avid for their seeming lack of QC, although it seems to vary greatly.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
2,005
Seattle
I own the new Saints and the 1st gen Formula Ones. Both are very good, but for a DH bike, the Saints have the edge for me. If you don't like the new levers, you can pair the 4pot calipers with the older levers fine. You do loose some power in doing so, but they work well and feel just like the old Saints did.
 

stinky6

Monkey
Dec 24, 2004
517
0
Monroe
One of the local shops in Seattle really likes Shimano, but doesn't like Servo Wave and they recomended new Saints with old style levers. I have some old Saints (07 or 08) and like them. I have only rode Shimano, Avid and cheap Hayes brakes and definantly prefer Shimano. Mineral oil may not hold up to heat quite as well, but you need to be doing loooong descents for that to be an issue. Most trails that are long enough for someone to notice fading because of the fluid are long enough that your going to stop and take a break for a few minutes anyway.
 

bballe336

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2005
1,757
0
MA
:stupid:

I love my saints. I have the levers adjusted super close to the bar. So much so that I have maybe 1cm between the lever and grip. They are super positive feeling and don't fade. I had issues with them "dropping" but that ended up being due to a bad bleed. Bled it with CHF, and now we're a happy couple.

If you rule out saint from the beginning, you probably won't get many recommendations. People like saints or formulas, with avids in whatever variety coming up next. I'm not a huge fan of avid for their seeming lack of QC, although it seems to vary greatly.
The reason I didn't like the saints is mainly the servo wave levers. The way they feel, and the amount of deadstroke that they have didn't work well for me. It may be an issue with the bleed though, so I may have to reconsider them.

Does anyone with formula's and small hands have input on getting the levers in close to the bar?

Thanks for the input so far, it's been pretty helpful.
 

Sghost

Turbo Monkey
Jul 13, 2008
1,038
0
NY
The reason I didn't like the saints is mainly the servo wave levers. The way they feel, and the amount of deadstroke that they have didn't work well for me. It may be an issue with the bleed though, so I may have to reconsider them.
Feel is subjective, but deadstroke would be your bleed.
 

manhattanprjkt83

Rusty Trombone
Jul 10, 2003
9,644
1,214
Nilbog
for what it's worth i am running the new saint calipers with XTR levers...i hate the new saint lever feel...

They are complete rocks and work perfectly together if you bleed them properly.
 

mattmatt86

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2005
5,347
10
Bleedmore, Murderland
I've had Formulas on my last 3 DH bikes and probably won't ever go with another company. I currently have The Ones on my rig and can't say a bad thing about them.

I have Elixir CRs on my XC bike and I'm not very impressed with them as XC brakes so I wouldn't consider them for DH duties.
 

sethimus

neu bizutch
Feb 5, 2006
4,881
2,132
not in Whistler anymore :/
:stupid:

I love my saints. I have the levers adjusted super close to the bar. So much so that I have maybe 1cm between the lever and grip. They are super positive feeling and don't fade. I had issues with them "dropping" but that ended up being due to a bad bleed. Bled it with CHF, and now we're a happy couple.

If you rule out saint from the beginning, you probably won't get many recommendations. People like saints or formulas, with avids in whatever variety coming up next. I'm not a huge fan of avid for their seeming lack of QC, although it seems to vary greatly.
<--- this?
 

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
2,508
822
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
Does anyone with Formula's have input on getting the levers in close to the bar?
I love everything about The Ones except that the levers don't get as close to the grip as I like. The reach adjuster needs more range. It's odd because they are supposed to be the same levers as R1s but my R1s are slightly closer. I use my index finger on the very end of the lever and like it very close to the grip. I find this fatigues my arms less.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
[picture of chf] <--- this?
exactly. It's green flavor instead of red, but I haven't noticed any difference over liquid gold from shimano. Mine cost $14 for the whole tank, vs. 14$ for two oz of shimano.

I will report back if my seals swell and the bike explodes, but I'm going on a few months and everything seems fine.
 

Killingtonvt

Monkey
Sep 19, 2005
134
2
Bellingham, WA
The 2011 Codes are sick!!! I have a little over a month on them at Whistler and it seems all the old Code issues are gone. The have been SUPER consistent, have great modulation and a ton of power. The DO use a new pad design similar to the Elixxers that can be removed from the top of the caliper.

bballe336, there's tons of adjustment with the lever reach as well.
 

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
do the new codes still have problems with the 4 pistons not moving at the same time like the old ones?

are the Formula Ones really worth the extra $130+ over the new Codes?
 

intensified

Monkey
Mar 31, 2004
519
6
Canton,Ma
The 2011 Codes are sick!!! I have a little over a month on them at Whistler and it seems all the old Code issues are gone. The have been SUPER consistent, have great modulation and a ton of power. The DO use a new pad design similar to the Elixxers that can be removed from the top of the caliper.

bballe336, there's tons of adjustment with the lever reach as well.
I agree, they seem killer, no trip to whistler with mine yet though. tons of power and they feel better than last years, the adjustments are top notch. i found a sweet deal on them to.
 

illnotsick

Monkey
Jun 3, 2009
257
0
I bought a pair of Hopes this summer. M4 front, X2 rear (120lbs). They are awesome. I had been riding northstar every weekend all summer with avids. I always had bleed issues and they never felt right after the first run. They gave me really bad arm pump too. I went to the hopes and they felt like squeezing butter. More than enough power and the most awesome levers I have ever felt.
You can find them on CRC for less than codes or saints.
 

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
2,508
822
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
Are Formula The Ones really worth the extra $130+ over the new Codes?
If you care about weight they have a huge advantage there. My The Ones have been perfect for half a season of DHing. Perfect feel and power and no fade, need to bleed, sticky pistons, or any other faults.
It seems like doubling the number of pistons doubles the chance for problems so a 2 piston brake with DH power is good for me.
 
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kazlx

Patches O'Houlihan
Aug 7, 2006
6,985
1,957
Tustin, CA
Big S Saints have been very predictable for me all season. They very well for me and I keep my levers close to the handlebar start with. Anyone else have "when the levers are cranked in the brakes don't seem to work very well, and seem a bit unpredictable" issue?
This.
 

ldw222

Monkey
Jun 16, 2009
170
0
Rochester, NY
The reason I didn't like the saints is mainly the servo wave levers. The way they feel, and the amount of deadstroke that they have didn't work well for me. It may be an issue with the bleed though, so I may have to reconsider them.

Does anyone with formula's and small hands have input on getting the levers in close to the bar?

Thanks for the input so far, it's been pretty helpful.
I'm stuck right now too trying to decide what to get. I've had Shimanos forever and am currently using Saint 4 pistons with servo wave levers. Last year I had the 2 piston calipers with XT servo wave levers. On both sets of servo waves (XT and Saint and both kinds of calipers) the rear brake would go to the grip periodically and I would have to pump the lever. I'd go to bleed them and in the reservoir the fluid would be dirty. I'm not sure if the XT and Saint servo wave levers have a weakness and let dirt in but it drives me crazy. I'm either going to try the new XTR trail levers on the 4 pistons or get Formulas and give up on Shimano brakes.
 

Ithnu

Monkey
Jul 16, 2007
961
0
Denver
The most adjustment for where the brake grabs relative to the bar and its position from the bar beforehand is going to be Hayes Primes.

I used to run Hayes, then did Avid for a year based on all these internet reviews and went back to Hayes 2 years ago. Turns out the internet doesn't always know what I want.

I'm getting a set of Primes next year to replace my Stroker Aces. The Aces have been awesome but I want the dead stroke adjust as well as lever position the Primes have.
 

bballe336

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2005
1,757
0
MA
I ended up getting Avid Code R's, haven't had a chance to try them out yet, but I'm pretty sure they're going to work well based on the feedback of some local guys.

I'd also be interested in trying the new XTR Trail stuff, it looks real nice.
 

Sghost

Turbo Monkey
Jul 13, 2008
1,038
0
NY
I'm stuck right now too trying to decide what to get. I've had Shimanos forever and am currently using Saint 4 pistons with servo wave levers. Last year I had the 2 piston calipers with XT servo wave levers. On both sets of servo waves (XT and Saint and both kinds of calipers) the rear brake would go to the grip periodically and I would have to pump the lever. I'd go to bleed them and in the reservoir the fluid would be dirty. I'm not sure if the XT and Saint servo wave levers have a weakness and let dirt in but it drives me crazy. I'm either going to try the new XTR trail levers on the 4 pistons or get Formulas and give up on Shimano brakes.
I'll go with Compromised installation for 400 Alex.
 
Aug 17, 2009
35
16
Peru, South America
Yeah the Elixirs, either the CR or just the R models, are great for DH and very light but if you want a bit extra power go for the CODES. Here in Peru we have long lasting descents of more than 3,000m and both brakes have showh to work great! They will not fade if they are correctly bleed. Personally I like both but with the Elixir's is just enough!
Anytime you want to test your brakes in a super long descend just let me know :)
Hope you get the right brakes for your riding style!
 

Eastern States Cup

Turbo Monkey
Feb 29, 2008
2,465
2
East Coast
After using Ones. Saints and Gustavs for long periods of time, I'm getting another set of Formuls Ones. They are fade proof and I can adjust them super close to the grip. I get some cheaper pads that last longer than oem and comprimise power a bit but that is ok.
 

motomike

Turbo Monkey
Jan 19, 2005
4,584
0
North Carolina
I just made the jump from Saints to the new Tech M4 brakes from Hope. Amazing feeling at the lever, no-nonsense adjustability(both reach and stoke without any tools) and a hell of a lot more modulation than the Saints. My issue with the Saints was that they were just too powerful, and caused an actual loss in traction in wet or loose conditions where I needed some modulation.
 

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
2,508
822
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
Well they're both radial master cylinders so you could say the same thing about:


Doesn't mean anything though. It's just the most efficient way to make a lever if you don't mind the pivot being so far from the bar. Shimano and Avid think it's better biomechanics to have the pivot much closer, hence the new XTR lever design:

Personally, this is the least interested I've ever been in a new brake because for once I'm completely happy with what I have, Formula R1s and The Ones. How can Magura possibly improve on these, knock 10g off?
 

daisycutter

Turbo Monkey
Apr 8, 2006
1,651
124
New York City
[QUOTE
Personally, this is the least interested I've ever been in a new brake because for once I'm completely happy with what I have, Formula R1s and The Ones. How can Magura possibly improve on these, knock 10g off?[/QUOTE]

Here is how according to Magura's PR

PERFORMANCE FACTOR
MAGURA has embarked on its MISSION PERFORMANCE campaign to develop the best disc brake in the world. But how do we define the best brake in the world? Isn’t it true that every terrain has its own particular challenges and that every bike has its own specific requirements, even every individual biker? Downhill racers need extreme braking power and stability - a few grammes more make no difference to them. World Cup racers are at the exact opposite end of the spectrum, and there are countless other specifications in-between.
Nevertheless, we have made it our business to find out what really matters, drawing on our decades of experience in brake design and extensive analyses of the best rival products but mainly on feedback from countless mountain bikers of all persuasions. The question is what would a brake need to be like to meet every requirement?
Surprisingly (but then again not surprisingly), it very quickly became apparent that there were four main criteria which a brake would need to satisfy in equal measure to qualify as the best brake in the world:

Weight
Quite clearly a critical factor for good uphill performance in a bike - the lighter the better. But low weight is also an advantage downhill in that it reduces the unsprung weight on the fork and chainstay and improves the ride quality.

Deceleration
It’s not all about pure deceleration, good control of the brake matters too! Aggressive stopping power produces short braking distances with little effort. If the force is too aggressive, however, the wheels will lock, resulting in loss of control, increased stopping distance and the threat of flying over the handlebars if the worst comes to the worst. The proportion of power is therefore just as important for perfect control as the pure braking force.

Stability
Brakes need to absorb enormous amounts of energy in form of heat, especially on long and steep descents. The quality of the performance of a brake in high temperatures and the speed with which it can release heat into the atmosphere are the key factors which determine whether the rider will be able to stop safely at the end of a long downhill stretch or will have to contend with a shifting centre of pressure or even brake failure.

Ergonomics
For effortless and safe braking, the handling of the brake must meet the individual needs of the rider and take account of the rider’s natural anatomy. This is the only way to guard against fatigue and errors in judgment and to ensure safe braking action - even when levels of concentration, coordination and energy are waning.

Can these criteria be "measured"?
MAGURA has in fact succeeded in quantifying all the values in relation to each other. The result is the MAGURA Performance Factor, a rating system which enables us to evaluate every disk brake. At the end of the evaluation process the best brake will be the one which has the highest Performance Factor. We at MAGURA have put ourselves under great pressure by developing the Performance Factor in that our future generation of brakes must be the top product on the brake market to keep pace with our own high-end specifications.
How does the Performance Factor work?

Will the best brake in the world be nothing more than a "mere" compromise?
A brake can achieve a high Performance Factor in one of many ways. One model may be a bit lighter, another a bit more stable, etc. If a brake has a particularly high Performance Factor, however, then this is a totally reliable indication of good ratings in ALL disciplines because the leading brakes on the market can ill afford to have glaring weaknesses in any one discipline. In this respect we are compelled by the Performance Factor to build the absolute überbrake which scores top marks in all disciplines. As such, the outcome of the MISSION PERFORMANCE campaign cannot be either a good downhill brake OR a good racing brake - the best brake in the world must simply convince in all disciplines.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
Its really a bummer they dont care about the more gravity oriented riders anymore. They turn into one of those super techy xc/am euro companies.