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When to forgive Michael Vick

sanjuro

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Sep 13, 2004
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While I think Vick does not belong in jail anymore, I can't root for him, ever for his dogfighting.

What I don't understand is that most crimes, even some of the violent ones, I could probably forgive and forget.

But something about animal cruelty seems unforgivable, that something is wrong with Vick to do it in the first place, and that no jail term could ever rehabilitate him.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
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While I think Vick does not belong in jail anymore, I can't root for him, ever for his dogfighting.

What I don't understand is that most crimes, even some of the violent ones, I could probably forgive and forget.

But something about animal cruelty seems unforgivable, that something is wrong with Vick to do it in the first place, and that no jail term could ever rehabilitate him.
Agree with all of this.

I think crimes that are so fundamentally cruel take a special kind of damaged human being to commit and I just can't find it in me to cheer for the guy even though he's fun to watch.

I think there are a lot of crimes that can stem from anger, hatred, need, lack of fear, and a lot of other things. For me, though, there is simply no way I can piece together in my head the desire to be vicious and cruel, repeatedly and over a long period of time, to dogs. Similar to crimes like child abuse (note: not comparing the two), I think it takes someone with something really broken in their head to be able to do.

Another person can inspire a lot of emotions that are negative and that doesn't make people justified in handling them with violence... but if dog are inspiring those kind of violent emotions, you're a broken person.
 

4xBoy

Turbo Monkey
Jun 20, 2006
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Meh,....most countries he would have gone unnoticed for dog fighting.


America just has more TV cameras to keep pointless chit in people minds, go outside and turn off the TV and the world will seem much better.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
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Agree with all of this.

I think crimes that are so fundamentally cruel take a special kind of damaged human being to commit and I just can't find it in me to cheer for the guy even though he's fun to watch.

I think there are a lot of crimes that can stem from anger, hatred, need, lack of fear, and a lot of other things. For me, though, there is simply no way I can piece together in my head the desire to be vicious and cruel, repeatedly and over a long period of time, to dogs. Similar to crimes like child abuse (note: not comparing the two), I think it takes someone with something really broken in their head to be able to do.

Another person can inspire a lot of emotions that are negative and that doesn't make people justified in handling them with violence... but if dog are inspiring those kind of violent emotions, you're a broken person.

Disagree. There's a cultural aspect to this type of entertainment that we "domesticated" Americans don't seem to fully grasp. Look at cockfighting... just as cruel by every measure. Yet practiced legally in Mexico, throughout South America and in many countries across the world. Has been practiced for thousands of years. Even here in the US:

Cockfighting has a tradition in some American cultures and history. It is said that some founding fathers participated in cockfighting including Washington and Jefferson.
In the United States, cockfighting is illegal in all 50 U.S. states and Washington, D.C.. The last state to implement a state law banning cockfighting was Louisiana; the Louisiana State Legislature voted to approve a Louisiana ban in June 2007. The ban took effect in August 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockfight

So just because we dont do this type of thing anymore, doesn't mean there's something wrong with Mexicans or people from other countries who do. And just because we hold dogs in a higher place than chickens doesn't mean anything either. Dogs are eaten in various places throughout the world, as we eat chickens here. Not everybody grew up with Rover sleeping at the foot of their bed.

I feel bad for those dogs. I think most people who fight dogs are dirtbags and should go to jail for it... but this is a personal bias as a result of how I was raised. If you were raised in a society in which it were acceptable to say, slap your wife when she burned dinner... you might do that when you grew up. Doesnt mean there's something wrong with you or that it's acceptable in society now, just that there's a disconnect between two cultures that really can't be reconciled. This isn't the same thing as your suburban neighbor's kid massacring kittens just because he's a psycho. God knows how Mike Vick was brought up.
 
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KavuRider

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2006
2,565
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Disagree. There's a cultural aspect to this type of entertainment that we "domesticated" Americans don't seem to fully grasp. Look at cockfighting... just as cruel by every measure. Yet practiced legally in Mexico, throughout South America and in many countries across the world. Has been practiced for thousands of years. Even here in the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockfight

So just because we dont do this type of thing anymore, doesn't mean there's something wrong with Mexicans or people from other countries who do. And just because we hold dogs in a higher place than chickens doesn't mean anything either. Dogs are eaten in various places throughout the world, as we eat chickens here. Not everybody grew up with Rover sleeping at the foot of their bed.

I feel bad for those dogs. I think most people who fight dogs are dirtbags and should go to jail for it... but this is a personal bias as a result of how I was raised. If you were raised in a society in which it were acceptable to say, slap your wife when she burned dinner... you might do that when you grew up. Doesnt mean there's something wrong with you or that it's acceptable in society now, just that there's a disconnect between two cultures that really can't be reconciled. This isn't the same thing as your suburban neighbor's kid massacring kittens just because he's a psycho. God knows how Mike Vick was brought up.
Good Post Burly.

My sister has a friend from India who is studying here. Her and her husband came over and saw my sister's dogs. Now my sister and her husband spoil their dogs, but the girl was shocked that they were even inside the house. Its just not the norm over there I guess, dogs aren't pets, just animals.
 

jasride

Turbo Monkey
Sep 23, 2006
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While I think Vick does not belong in jail anymore, I can't root for him, ever for his dogfighting.

What I don't understand is that most crimes, even some of the violent ones, I could probably forgive and forget.

But something about animal cruelty seems unforgivable, that something is wrong with Vick to do it in the first place, and that no jail term could ever rehabilitate him.
You're saying this from the other side of the country. I think most of Philly thought the same way you did until this past Monday night. It's funny what sport teams do to people.

On the same subject..... I read an article the other day and DeSean Jackson was quoted as saying something like "Yeah we were all fired up like a bunch of pitbulls ready to attack" ....

Never mind here's the article.

http://www.rtnda.org/pages/posts/pit-bull-comment-from-michael-vicks-teammate-begs-important-question1139.php


Jackson was referencing a pregame spat with some Redskins when he said: "The pregame altercation got us going. It had us ready. We came back into the locker room pumped," Jackson said. "We were like pit bulls, ready to get out of the cage."
damn.
 

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
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Im over here now
Good Post Burly.

My sister has a friend from India who is studying here. Her and her husband came over and saw my sister's dogs. Now my sister and her husband spoil their dogs, but the girl was shocked that they were even inside the house. Its just not the norm over there I guess, dogs aren't pets, just animals.
and cows are praised over there and have free roam anywhere they want to go.



i personally can never forget or forgive what he did. yes in other parts of the world, his actions wouldnt be looked down upon so much, but we arent in other parts of the world. dogs are obviously respected/loved here more then in a lot of other countries and to the average Americans, his actions are atrocious.
i love dogs. i have three of them. so knowing that he was there and had a hand in killing the "under-performing" dogs is despicable. the fact that these animals were raised to kill other dogs (or raised as "training" dogs) is also something i cannot stand.
as mentioned in the other thread about pitbulls, a lot of these dogs are super friendly and actions like his give the breed a bad name. Nat Geo did a show about Vick's rescued dogs and they all seemed so happy to not be used to kill other dogs.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,092
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Burly, that's a fair post, but there are a lot of practices in a lot of parts of the world, and it doesn't mean that I don't view them as abhorrent to the point of unforgivable. There are places where rape is a fact of life for women. It's because the offenders were raised that way - but simply because it's cultural doesn't mean that they aren't, in a fundamental way, pretty broken people and may not ever really feel or understand why it is wrong.

You're right, of course - it's colored by our upbringing and our culture. But someone can be just as damaged by their upbringing as their nature.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
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Umm, OK, to extend the logic I guess it's fine if other countries still have slavery, then?

Not that I disagree entirely with your ultimate conclusion, Burly, but still...
 

.:Jeenyus:.

Turbo Monkey
Feb 23, 2004
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so none of you believe in a second chance? people make mistakes; some change and some don't. based on his performance on the field and composure off of it, i would like to believe that Vick is one of those who has realized the err of his ways and is doing everything in his power to try and rectify his mistakes and move on.

does this mean that i am okay with dog-fighting and the abuse/murder that goes with it? not in the slightest. but until Vick proves otherwise, i think the 2 year jail sentence and associated national spotlight might have changed his perspective on things.
 

drkenan

anti-dentite
Oct 1, 2006
3,441
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Umm, OK, to extend the logic I guess it's fine if other countries still have slavery, then?

Not that I disagree entirely with your ultimate conclusion, Burly, but still...
Exactly - the whole "rest of the world does it" argument isn't working for me. By that rationale, women shouldn't be voting or going out in public without a male escort either.

As far as Vick is concerned, fvck that guy. I guess he did his time but most people won't look at him in the same light anymore.
 

eaterofdog

ass grabber
Sep 8, 2006
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Hanging some tore-to-pieces dog up by it's neck because it lost a fight is seriously disturbed. That sick **** needs to go into the woods with the rest of the inbred tards who think this is entertainment.

And screw that "other cultures" crap. The Japanese kill whales for food, when most Japanese people don't even want it. They put it in school lunches to get rid of it. Is that all hunky-dory?
 

sanjuro

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Sep 13, 2004
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You're saying this from the other side of the country. I think most of Philly thought the same way you did until this past Monday night. It's funny what sport teams do to people.

On the same subject..... I read an article the other day and DeSean Jackson was quoted as saying something like "Yeah we were all fired up like a bunch of pitbulls ready to attack" ....

Never mind here's the article.

http://www.rtnda.org/pages/posts/pit-bull-comment-from-michael-vicks-teammate-begs-important-question1139.php

damn.
While I am not a Philly fan (or hater), it is a question if he played for a team I actually rooted for.

I would have to root for the team, and selectively not root for Vick.

Probably not possible and I would just not watch my team.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
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Hanging some tore-to-pieces dog up by it's neck because it lost a fight is seriously disturbed. That sick **** needs to go into the woods with the rest of the inbred tards who think this is entertainment.

And screw that "other cultures" crap. The Japanese kill whales for food, when most Japanese people don't even want it. They put it in school lunches to get rid of it. Is that all hunky-dory?
:stupid:

While I buy burly's argument about a certain portion of this being cultural, that argument dies in the face of the argument that the ironically named (in this particular subject) eaterofdog makes. That level of cruelty shows a major disconnect and is very seriously walking the line of being sociopathic. The link between animal abuse and spousal/domestic abuse and even out right murder is very strong. I hope Mr. Vick is getting help or is being watched closely by the authorities for some time to come.
 

jasride

Turbo Monkey
Sep 23, 2006
1,069
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While I am not a Philly fan (or hater), it is a question if he played for a team I actually rooted for.

I would have to root for the team, and selectively not root for Vick.

Probably not possible and I would just not watch my team.

I totally agree with you man. But I also wounder how many #7 Philly Jerseys are sold this week??

When the Eagles picked up Vick the talk around here was what was the team thinking.? And that thinking was a lot of both 1) could he even play anymore? and 2) no way do we want a dog killer.

But after this week, a statement win like that for the team over rides everything else i guess.


I'm not an Eagle fan but I live in Eagle country and I haven't heard really anybody at the office talk about his past. Just this blow out game and how good he looked. Crazy, I know.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Even the whole premise of this thread title is insane. The guy can play. Big fvcking deal. If he sucked no one would even be having this conversation. There's no conflict. The guy's a douchebag. He just happens to be a douchebag that can play football really well. Those aren't mutually exclusive and one certainly doesn't warrant forgiveness of the other. I don't give a rat's ass what goes on in guam with chickens. He didn't live there and neither do we.



Edit: You know........like this

http://www.site.hbcutthecoursein1990.com/Announcements.html
 
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sanjuro

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Sep 13, 2004
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Even the whole premise of this thread title is insane. The guy can play. Big fvcking deal. If he sucked no one would even be having this conversation. There's no conflict. The guy's a douchebag. He just happens to be a douchebag that can play football really well. Those aren't mutually exclusive and one certainly doesn't warrant forgiveness of the other. I don't give a rat's ass what goes on in guam with chickens. He didn't live there and neither do we.

Edit: You know........like this

http://www.site.hbcutthecoursein1990.com/Announcements.html
BTW, if you don't care about football, this thread does mean absolutely nothing.

But if you watch Eagles games, you are paying for his salary, in essence you are supporting Vick.

Actually, thanks to revenue sharing, watching any NFL game is paying for Vick to play.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
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Umm, OK, to extend the logic I guess it's fine if other countries still have slavery, then?

Not that I disagree entirely with your ultimate conclusion, Burly, but still...
No, you're missing my point, or Im just not making it very well.

Im not saying dog fighting is okay. Im not excusing slavery just because it was the norm in some cultures. Im simply trying to refute the assertion that there is something inherently wrong or psychopathic about a person who practices or practiced such acts. These are very different things.

It reminds me of how people want to replace Columbus Day with Discovery Day or whatever, because Columbus killed native Americans. In doing that we are holding Columbus to a standard that, given the day and society he was brought up in, he would have been highly unlikely to meet.

Normally we do this subconsciously. For instance, had Borat been from Ohio instead of Kazakhstan, people would have reacted quite differently to his sh*tting in a napkin and bringing it to the dinner table.
 
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jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
40,931
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I have a tough time with any crime against animals, children, and women. I can see giving someone a second chance, but once they cross that line, it will never be the same as before no matter how sorry they are.
 
Forgive Vick?
Never.
Staging pitbull fights for HOURS on end drinking it up and smoking blunts like its no big deal is Jeffery Damer sh1t .
Seriously.
As a pit bull owner the only way i could forgive his asshatterry would be for him to experience being mauled by a pack of dogs, lions, mosh girlz etc.
On the internet.
 

.:Jeenyus:.

Turbo Monkey
Feb 23, 2004
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I have a tough time with any crime against animals, children, and women. I can see giving someone a second chance, but once they cross that line, it will never be the same as before no matter how sorry they are.

heh, you just put women on the same level as children and animals. :thumb:
 

sanjuro

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Sep 13, 2004
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