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Intense 29er DH bike

iRider

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,653
3,092
How the Fvck do the time riders at worldcups, at the 1:04 or in any other sport where you ride/drive/run/swim against the clock? :rolleyes:
For example Intense has a 951 and 2951, they could let the same rider do multiple timed runs on the same course. To make it significant you can then go to different courses, use different riders etc.. Basic experiment planning 101.

HAB said:
How the FVCK do you propose to that? If it was as cut and dry as "29ers are faster or "26ers are faster" we'd have caught on by now. The number of factors beyond wheel size is innumerable. I mean, I could grab a 29er and a 26er, and time myself over certain sections of trail. I'd probably be faster on different bits of trail on the different bikes. Does that mean fvck all about how they'd work for you on your trails? Not really. You're grossly oversimplifying the issue.
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Sam B

Sam B

Monkey
Nov 25, 2001
280
0
Cascadia
Sghost said:
So which is better on steep, tight, twisty trails?
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Still more complicated than that. Rider style, rider size (center of mass), and overall setup all play a factor. I am well over 6' tall... my center of mass compared to 26 axle height is way higher than someone who is 5'6". Okay, so that makes sense up front for bigger riders... But run a 29" rear wheel and you are automatically dealing with an inferior wheel path and/or complications for pedaling performance.

Like a few other people said there is no ONE answer to these questions.

I am about to try a 29 front (69er) setup on my TR450. Gonna see how it goes. But even that isn't a fair comparison. I have to run a different fork (40 to Dorado), different tire (Minion to slightly cut WTB) and I still can't quite match my previous geo (slightly slacker HA and/or a higher BB). And obviously I am losing travel up front...

 
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Dogboy

Dogboy

Turbo Monkey
Apr 12, 2004
3,209
584
Durham, NC
mattmatt86 said:
Alright, a little too much hostility from both sides. As someone who owns multiple bikes both of the 26 and 29 variety this is my .02.

Bikes are tools, they help get you from point A to point B (more or less). Some will do it faster, some more efficient, and some with a little more fun. Some will excel on smooth fast trails, some on tight twisty trails and some on steep technical trails. Sometimes the right tool for one person isn't the right tool for another. You could also draw a comparison to golf clubs. You have a whole bag full of them, could you get through 18 holes with just 1 club? Sure. But each club has a more specific purpose and is most efficient when used in the situation it was designed for. And just like with bikes, you will occasionally have some overlap, where two tools can both accomplish the same outcome but each might suit one individual over another.

Maybe that's too broad a comparison but the way I see it, they are all bikes. Just go out and enjoy the ride, whatever you're on.


:: steps down from soapbox::
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Nicely said. :thumb:
 
Hesh To Steel

Hesh To Steel

Monkey
Dec 12, 2007
661
1
Hell's Kitchen
FlipFantasia said:
no hostility....like I said, I've been riding a tallboy, and while it's fun, it takes away a lot of what I personally enjoy in mountain biking. if it's your bag, go ahead, get your rocks off, but just don't assume that it is, or should be, for everyone.
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Stating that it's a preference is perfectly reasonable. It's when you said that it was "cheating" that you sounded silly. I didn't get that you were (I hope) joking about that. If so, I apologize. No hostility intended.
 
FlipFantasia

FlipFantasia

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,665
499
Sea to Sky BC
Hesh To Steel said:
Stating that it's a preference is perfectly reasonable. It's when you said that it was "cheating" that you sounded silly. I didn't get that you were (I hope) joking about that. If so, I apologize. No hostility intended.
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oh, I'm not joking, it is like cheating! :) but I'm not saying that as a bad thing.

I find it much easier on technical terrain, point, pedal, shoot....I dunno, sometimes it's fun, but definitely not all the time, cause I find it dumbs the trail down. Think about it this way, riding a 29" wheel is like adding a few inches of gravel and fill into all the holes of a technical trail, and we all know how much people whine about dumbing down trails....again, I'm not saying it's wrong, but you can't deny the fact that it makes it easier to ride technical terrain. I'm not going to stop riding 29ers, Seb left me his tallboy for the winter and I'm enjoying spending time on it, but again, it is not the be all and end all of bike technology, nor do I think they will ever replace 26ers. They still have many limitations in geometry and fork/wheel stiffness, tire selection, etc. Yeah it's changing a bit, but there's still a lot of places I wouldn't want to ride one that I have no concerns about with my Cove Hustler/Lyric/Crossmax SX combo....

again, many tools for many applications, many different riding preferences for many different people. for me sometimes it's not about just being able to go fast, I like the technical aspect of gnarly xc and would miss it if I exclusively rode a 29er. just preferences!
 
Hesh To Steel

Hesh To Steel

Monkey
Dec 12, 2007
661
1
Hell's Kitchen
FlipFantasia said:
oh, I'm not joking, it is like cheating! :) but I'm not saying that as a bad thing.

I find it much easier on technical terrain, point, pedal, shoot....I dunno, sometimes it's fun, but definitely not all the time, cause I find it dumbs the trail down. Think about it this way, riding a 29" wheel is like adding a few inches of gravel and fill into all the holes of a technical trail, and we all know how much people whine about dumbing down trails....again, I'm not saying it's wrong, but you can't deny the fact that it makes it easier to ride technical terrain. I'm not going to stop riding 29ers, Seb left me his tallboy for the winter and I'm enjoying spending time on it, but again, it is not the be all and end all of bike technology, nor do I think they will ever replace 26ers. They still have many limitations in geometry and fork/wheel stiffness, tire selection, etc. Yeah it's changing a bit, but there's still a lot of places I wouldn't want to ride one that I have no concerns about with my Cove Hustler/Lyric/Crossmax SX combo....

again, many tools for many applications, many different riding preferences for many different people. for me sometimes it's not about just being able to go fast, I like the technical aspect of gnarly xc and would miss it if I exclusively rode a 29er. just preferences!
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I think we're approaching the discussion from different angles on two levels. It sounds like you've got stuff in mind that you enjoy riding, and a 29er would alter your experience on those trails by making it easier. I'm looking at it with the idea that it might make stuff easier to ride, thereby allowing the rider to ride even gnarlier stuff.

You mentioned technical XC in your post also, and it seems like the 29er's place is pretty much cemented in the XC world (or maybe it's not, I don't really do any XC riding or keep up on the state of the XC industry). The big debate is whether the technology would really work for DH. I think if bike engineers are able to design frames that allow the 29" wheel to do it's thing in the rough stuff while bringing the handling of the bikes up to par with current 26" standards that seems like a win/win to me. All this, of course, also assumes the presence of componentry solid enough to take DH abuse, which I think is just starting to emerge.
 
FlipFantasia

FlipFantasia

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,665
499
Sea to Sky BC
Hesh To Steel said:
I think we're approaching the discussion from different angles on two levels. It sounds like you've got stuff in mind that you enjoy riding, and a 29er would alter your experience on those trails by making it easier. I'm looking at it with the idea that it might make stuff easier to ride, thereby allowing the rider to ride even gnarlier stuff.

You mentioned technical XC in your post also, and it seems like the 29er's place is pretty much cemented in the XC world (or maybe it's not, I don't really do any XC riding or keep up on the state of the XC industry). The big debate is whether the technology would really work for DH. I think if bike engineers are able to design frames that allow the 29" wheel to do it's thing in the rough stuff while bringing the handling of the bikes up to par with current 26" standards that seems like a win/win to me. All this, of course, also assumes the presence of componentry solid enough to take DH abuse, which I think is just starting to emerge.
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I definitely see the comment about the riding even gnarlier stuff, and I definitely have found myself taking some lines that I probably wouldn't attempt on my 26. I guess sometimes it feels like I ride sloppy on it, or can easily. a little less focus on line choice and more on plow...........it is interesting though to see how things are evolving and hopefully fork/wheel strength and tire choices catch up and some slacker geometry gets figured out.
 
stiksandstones

stiksandstones

Turbo Monkey
May 21, 2002
5,078
25
Orange, Ca
iRider said:
I said it before and will say it again: in the times of SRM cranks and Freelap systems it MUST be possible to collect enough scientific evidence for or against 29ers being faster. So why has no bike manufacturer shown this data? Would be a huge marketing tool! Unless, of course, the data shows no difference or a disadvantage of 29ers. Mmmmhhhhh......
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hard to do with the tire situation. But rumor has it some proper Intense 29er DH tires are in the pipeline.

Vital revisits the 2951 http://www.vitalmtb.com/features/One-Year-Later-Intense-2951-29er-DH-Prototype,112

And on a side note, I was stoked to hear about a freelap underground test of our M9 vs another uber popular bike, and the M9 was fastest everytime.

Hmmm, perhaps an 'M9er'©
is in the future ;)
 
jonKranked

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,882
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on the qiup regarding racing dh on a 29'er... does the UCI have anything to say about using larger diameter wheels? this goes for xc and dh
 
Sghost

Sghost

Turbo Monkey
Jul 13, 2008
1,038
0
NY
jonKranked said:
on the qiup regarding racing dh on a 29'er... does the UCI have anything to say about using larger diameter wheels? this goes for xc and dh
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Larger, no. GF lobbied them years ago, which was for "off road racing" and not specifically XC.
 
jonKranked

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,882
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media blackout
Sghost said:
Ugh, it was early 2000's. When he had the Subaru team racing them and Travis Brown was always pulling out his cross bike whenever he could get away with it.
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gotcha. so maybe my reading comprehension is shot today, is UCI ok with wheels >26" for off-road racing?
 
Tootrikky

Tootrikky

Monkey
Jul 31, 2003
772
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Mount Vernon
mattmatt86 said:
And 4 strokes will never work for Motocross. :thumb:
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Yep that's why they are allowed 200 extra CC's over 2t's. Which hypothetically would be similar to the UCI implementing a regulation to add 10lbs of ballast to all 26" bikes competing in order to make the 29" bikes (that the manufactures are pushing) more competitive.:eek:
 
Sghost

Sghost

Turbo Monkey
Jul 13, 2008
1,038
0
NY
jonKranked said:
gotcha. so maybe my reading comprehension is shot today, is UCI ok with wheels >26" for off-road racing?
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Haha Nah your good, I left a word or two out of one of my posts.

29ers are approved for XC and DH.


ianjenn said:
They also managed on getting a few MX tracks closed due to loud noise. Sweet

Guess Honda really had to keep their mechanics job secure and force the 4 stroke idea onto everyone. No more one hour motor rebuilds for $100.:rant: I sold my 4 stroke BTW. It was fun just no time to ride.
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You can blame Doug Henry.
 
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DHMASTER

DHMASTER

Chimp
Sep 25, 2010
16
0
the real nor cal
Cyclocross video......... Wow, walking speed on the equivalent of a dirt road. you guys must be roadies to be impressed by this. I guess if that's all you have for trails you might as well ride a road bike, however there is no substitute for real mountain bikes if you actually have real trails. The x-c trails these days seem like they are mostly just plain boring because they were made to cater to unskilled riders fresh from the road. 29rs definitely have the potential to rip, I'm just waiting to find one slack enough for my liking and some wheels that can be trusted in the rough, like say North Star.
 
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ÆX

ÆX

Turbo Monkey
Sep 8, 2001
4,920
17
NM
Sandwich said:
anybody remember how moist BCD got over his 29er bastard child? Thing was ugly as sin, had minimal clearance F and RR (for minimal wheelbase changes) and he qualified for the world cup in Mt. St anne or something.

His (real world) problems with the bike were that tires were not suited to DH and rims/wheels were not strong enough for DH. IIRC, he raved about bump absorption and the ability to carry speed over rough sections. Didn't comment much on handling.
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yeah i raced MSA and qualified on them, also tried to qualify in schladming that year. i had an off in the trees.

im building up a 69er for masters world and some rocky mtn stuff this next year. ass to rear tire clearance just will never happen. i would tire butt tap every run. ill be using a fox 40 w/7'' again on the front with any old frame i can get a deal on. looks like there are some tires available now so i am coming out to play.
 
xy9ine

xy9ine

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
2,940
353
vancouver eastside
ÆX;3552203 said:
im building up a 69er for masters world and some rocky mtn stuff this next year. ass to rear tire clearance just will never happen. i would tire butt tap every run.
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yeah, the 69er makes more sense to me. nothing worse than bouncing off the rear tire on a freaky steep line. i'm pondering giving it a go. i've got a wb 2.0 kicking around that i've dropped to 7". just need to build a wheel...
 
sundaydoug

sundaydoug

Monkey
Jun 8, 2009
611
275
DHMASTER said:
made to cater to unskilled riders fresh from the road.
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... hence the creation of the 29'er.

I love bikes and everything about them, but for some reason this whole "29er" thing makes me crazy way beyond simply trying to ignore them.

I understand the importance of evolution, but taking something that's supposed to be difficult and dumbing it down by adding big wheels kills the whole point of it. How far is the bike industry willing to go in order to cater to lower skill levels?

I just hope that the mountain bike version of this isn't next.

 
mattmatt86

mattmatt86

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2005
5,347
10
Bleedmore, Murderland
sundaydoug said:
... hence the creation of the 29'er.

I love bikes and everything about them, but for some reason this whole "29er" thing makes me crazy way beyond simply trying to ignore them.

I understand the importance of evolution, but taking something that's supposed to be difficult and dumbing it down by adding big wheels kills the whole point of it. How far is the bike industry willing to go in order to cater to lower skill levels?
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Can everyone please stop using this argument. That is the same as saying suspension, hydraulic disc brakes, wide handlebars, clipless pedals etc. are dumbing down bikes. If you honestly believe this to be true then go do all your trail riding on a 20" brakeless BMX bike. Or better yet, a Unicycle, having two wheels is just drumbing it down for all of us.
 
sundaydoug

sundaydoug

Monkey
Jun 8, 2009
611
275
mattmatt86 said:
Can everyone please stop using this argument.
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Hey man, it's just my opinion. Apparently I'm not the only one that thinks that reinventing the wheel (pun intended) is sort of goofy and unnecessary.

If it makes your ride more enjoyable to ride on big wheels, then by all means go for it. We're all just happy riding bikes in the end.
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,368
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sundaydoug said:
Hey man, it's just my opinion. Apparently I'm not the only one that thinks that reinventing the wheel (pun intended) is sort of goofy and unnecessary.

If it makes your ride more enjoyable to ride on big wheels, then by all means go for it. We're all just happy riding bikes in the end.
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I'm really anti 29ers but that argument is silly. If it makes the riding easier on higher skill levels it will allow us to build more difficult tracks/ride faster - therefore it wont be any easier. Good bikes also make riding easier. I'm quite sure my old 55lbs bike made it harder to ride than my current one, should I go back? Same for my dj bike on a dh track.

Though I don't agree with 29ers being easier. Pros and cons. For me it's a niche. Just went from 24s to 26s on my dj ht and I wouldnt want the same change happen on my dh bike. Though I know it's a lame comparison.
 
syadasti

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
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VT
jonKranked said:
that reminds me... to date i have not seen one picture of a 29'er hucking, or even doing a sweet manual or wheelie
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Even if they do it fixed gear and brakeless and have tons of talent it doesn't hold your interest nearly as much as 26/24/20s...not as much possible due to physics. His videos were way better before he started doing this fixed gear crap...

 
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