Phoenix vs DW DHR

Total speculation, but I'm guessing the Pivot is more like the Sunday, and the DHR is more like the old DHR single pivot. I'm just going on the hype I've read, and can't recall where the words came from(designers or Ermchair riders). Both bikes look great. I'd probably go for best deal and geo if I was picking. Both I'm guessing are made well, as the rest of the companies concerned seem to build bikes well.

Love the looks of the phoenix...

Came off a Sunday and went to a DHR, IMO the DHR is like a refined Sunday, handles square edges much better and doesn't blow through the travel like the Sunday could.

Doesn't really answer your question I guess.

From what i've heard, although the the phoenix is technically a "refined" sunday, it rides nothing like it (you can get a full description on the website), yet i've never ridden either of them so i couldnt really tell you much about it... Personally i prefer the look of the phoenix over the dhr, and i will be riding one next summer.

As for weight, i'm not sure about the dhr, but pivot says that their test bike came in at about 39 pounds, and the team bikes were about 37 pounds.

With both you have a problem if you want to use another shock than the original spec!

I had the chance to spend a few days helping Dave out with testing both these bikes over this season and loved the both. I had been on a Sunday with a Pushed DHX for 3 seasons prior.

I had much more time on the Pheonix, which at 6'2" on a Medium felt a little bit small on me, but very VERY fun to ride. It is super lively and poppy, jumps amazing, great weight distribution on flat corners, and encourages a lot of pumping and flowing. I only ever rode it in one geometry setting (sorry, don't know which). With the amount of anti-squat built into the suspension, you'd never know that the bike actually has a lower BB than the Sunday. Pedal strikes were hardly ever an issue due to the bike remaining upright and stable in its composure by using less travel more wisely over regular trail chatter. Another notable trait was the incredibly stiff rear triangle which aided to the predictable cornering.

The DHR - I only had a couple runs on the new version but had a full day on the previous proto last year (and on 2 different setups - M+L). Its funny that while this bike looks so different from the Sunday, it has more of the same 'methodology' of riding style. It is a planted pinner that does its job so unbelievably well you kind of forget that its there. It is so damn fast and yet hardly anything you throw at it will knock it out of composure. I was intentionally hitting large stupid lines to try to get the travel to blow through itself, but it handled it immaculately. It requires much less body language to ride and allows you to stay calm and focused. Somehow, it almost feels like this bike 'pushes' you out of corners and traction is instantly available when you need to get on it. Again, the chassis is much lower than the Sunday but pedal strikes were not an issue.

I'm hoping to pick up one of these bikes this year and it is a tough decision. I would lean towards the DHR for pure World Cup level race performance, but for daily riding the Pheonix is livelier and more fun to ride and probably bit more of a practical option for your average racer.

Both have lower BBs than a Sunday? Farrrk. Have they got 5/10 working on some steel caps? That's a deal breaker for me here in Oz. Still keen to hear more ride reports though, preferably not from friends of DW. Good informed review but, cheers.

Pip3r said:

I had much more time on the Pheonix, which at 6'2" on a Medium felt a little bit small on me, but very VERY fun to ride. It is super lively and poppy, jumps amazing, great weight distribution on flat corners, and encourages a lot of pumping and flowing. I only ever rode it in one geometry setting (sorry, don't know which). With the amount of anti-squat built into the suspension, you'd never know that the bike actually has a lower BB than the Sunday. Pedal strikes were hardly ever an issue due to the bike remaining upright and stable in its composure by using less travel more wisely over regular trail chatter. Another notable trait was the incredibly stiff rear triangle which aided to the predictable cornering.

The DHR - I only had a couple runs on the new version but had a full day on the previous proto last year (and on 2 different setups - M+L). Its funny that while this bike looks so different from the Sunday, it has more of the same 'methodology' of riding style. It is a planted pinner that does its job so unbelievably well you kind of forget that its there. It is so damn fast and yet hardly anything you throw at it will knock it out of composure. I was intentionally hitting large stupid lines to try to get the travel to blow through itself, but it handled it immaculately. It requires much less body language to ride and allows you to stay calm and focused. Somehow, it almost feels like this bike 'pushes' you out of corners and traction is instantly available when you need to get on it. Again, the chassis is much lower than the Sunday but pedal strikes were not an issue.

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What shocks did they have on them? Because it sounds like you're describing the damping setup as much as the bikes themselves. Regardless, great feedback...laughing at Lelandjt!

iRider said:

With both you have a problem if you want to use another shock than the original spec!

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Welcome to 2007. New DW-DHR will work with many brands. Even DW will tell you that.

Lelandjt said:

You ruined my speculative thread with facts and ride impressions. Dick.

Good info though.

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FYI, what Pip3r said about it is true. The weekend Dave let me have it for 2 days of my own personal enjoyment, it got kinda silly retarded what I was doing b/c I did what P did. I started looking for dumb lines to ride out and trying to out ride the bike. Me love!!!

bizutch said:

Welcome to 2007. New DW-DHR will work with many brands. Even DW will tell you that.

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Welcome to 2011!

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=654982

that was a fast delete.

IH8Rice said:

that was a fast delete.

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Yeah, I thought I was going crazy there for a minute.

didn't realize it was both vivids...still...just my opinion, but i've ridden vivid air, and i don't consider it a worthwhile DH shock....

Ian Collins said:

didn't realize it was both vivids...still...just my opinion, but i've ridden vivid air, and i don't consider it a worthwhile DH shock....

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I'm interested. Please tell me more. Is the characteristic still crap like all air shocks?

Ian Collins said:

didn't realize it was both vivids...still...just my opinion, but i've ridden vivid air, and i don't consider it a worthwhile DH shock....

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I would love to hear about your experience with the vivid air. was it on your personal bike? tuned to you?

I replaced my Fox Rc4 with a vivid air on my demo 8 about 5 months ago and i can not say enough great things about it. I wouldn't go back to my fox if you paid me. The vivid is just as good if not better on small bumps and it is 100% better on big hits. I find it stays on the ground when i want it to but is still very popy. also this shock was very easy to set up. I had mine dialed in about an hour of good testing. i had the Fox for 8 months and still wasn't pleased

jnooth said:

I would love to hear about your experience with the vivid air. was it on your personal bike? tuned to you?

I replaced my Fox Rc4 with a vivid air on my demo 8 about 5 months ago and i can not say enough great things about it. I wouldn't go back to my fox if you paid me. The vivid is just as good if not better on small bumps and it is 100% better on big hits. I find it stays on the ground when i want it to but is still very popy. also this shock was very easy to set up. I had mine dialed in about an hour of good testing. i had the Fox for 8 months and still wasn't pleased

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it wasn't on my personal bike, but it was on a good friends bike that i'm very comfortable on, and we're the same weight, and about the same skill level....

small bump sensitivity is better than other AIR shocks so far, but still nowhere close to a coil shock.... it definitely suffered when flowing through mid sized stuff...yeah the weight and tunability is cool, but there isn't a MASSIVE difference in the weight of that, and most other dampers with a ti spring....not enough to sacrifice the sensitivity and traction....it's cool, but i just don't think that air is all the way there yet....take what i say with a grain of salt though....despite the weight savings of a boxxer WC, i'd never ride it...i'm perfectly happy with coil a sprung fork as well....there's also the issue of fade, which i can't vouch for, i personally didn't experience it, but i've heard on longer runs they fade pretty badly....

is the build quality on the pivot any better? my roommate got his dhr a few weeks ago and the build quality is bad. burn through on the welds in multiple places and the icsg tabs were out of spec. also their welding jigs were off as some of the supports that went around the shock were not properly aligned.

ucsbMTBmember said:

is the build quality on the pivot any better? my roommate got his dhr a few weeks ago and the build quality is bad. burn through on the welds in multiple places and the icsg tabs were out of spec. also their welding jigs were off as some of the supports that went around the shock were not properly aligned.

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Thats the first I have heard of a Turner having quality issues. Post some pics of this thing.

well i cant get pics of the burn through atm cuz the bike is all built up. But the major areas of burn through were in the headtube and the bottom bracket. Ill see if i can get some pics of the other things

ianjenn said:

Thats the first I have heard of a Turner having quality issues. Post some pics of this thing.

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I usually don't comment on this stuff, but that's my bike that ucsbmtbmember was talking about. Sad to say, but everything he said is true. There is burn through on both the head tube and the bb. I'm not going to pull it apart to take pics, but I assure you it's there. When I got the frame, the threads on the bb were really bad, and the headtube needed reaming badly. The top ICSG 05 tab is also about 3mm out of spec, so I am running a bb mount chain guide to account for that which is kind of a pain in the ass.

With that all said, I still love this bike. I immediately felt right at home on it on the trail. Probably have about 50k+ vert on it now so I guess I can post some impressions. Echoing what has already been said, the DHR rides very Sunday like, except it does not plow through the travel on bigger hits. I'm not running any bottom out control, and still have had no issues with hard bottom outs on bigger hits.

As far as cornering goes, this bike is amazing. My one complaint with the V10 was that I could never figure out how to corner it, and the DHR makes me feel like I was cornering my old Sunday again. Point the wheel where you want to go and lean over. There is no front tire wash compared to the v10 in a similar situation.

Rear Suspension: I'm still figuring out my shock settings, but I can say the DHR is not a plow bike. That is either a good thing or a bad thing depending on what kind of rider you are. I like it because I am more of a finesse rider. But, on the rougher sections of say Tunnel where there is no clear line the DHR is definitely a bit rougher than the v10. This could be because I'm still breaking the RC4 in or because of shock settings I have. I'll have to give an update on that after I get some more time on it. However, in hard braking sections the DHR is smoother and tracks better than the V10.


Going against what others have said, I feel quite comfortable on the bike in high speed sections. It seems stable to me.

Overall, I'd say the DHR is definitely a very playful bike. The more you put into it, the more you get out of it. I feel noticeably faster on it than on my v10.

How is "burn through" bad? It would seem to me that full penetration of a weld is a good thing, and the uniformity of that from the back of the peice of metal is a bit trivial.

Also, 3mm out of spec, in what way? Rotation, or in relation to the chainline?

Just curious- cool to hear about the bike from a riding perspective, sounds fun!

I work at a Pivot dealer in AZ and the guys at Pivot hooked me up with one of their demo bikes for the weekend. I spent 3 days riding in SB , tunnel, cold springs and knapps. I thought this bike was awesome and now have one on order. The weight was right at 39 lbs and all very low in the bike. I liked the position it put me in right in the middle of the bike. This is the first DW link bike I have ridden but coming off a VPP bike and FSR before that this bike felt great, tons of traction, pedaled great and soaked up the huge boulders that I was smashing into, also quite stable at high speeds. It had a Fox rc4 with 350 spring ( I weigh 165). Not sure if this shock had any custom tuning to it but it was one of the best feeling rc4 shocks I have felt. As you can tell I am stoked on this bike...dialed is the word I would use to describe the Pivot.

"Both have lower BBs than a Sunday? Farrrk. Have they got 5/10 working on some steel caps? That's a deal breaker for me here in Oz. Still keen to hear more ride reports though, preferably not from friends of DW. Good informed review but, cheers."

Why is a low BB a deal breaker in NSW?
I ride the same places as you do in Aus and on the east coast of the USA and my bash ring sees more action in on the east coast.

iRider said:

Welcome to 2011!

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=654982

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You said if you want to use "another" shock. Vivid Air is a toy and thus far the only exception I see in that thread. I won't be crying over air shocks on my DHR until Bubba Stewart does on his 450.

Lelandjt said:

Instead of building it up I'd have sent it back and asked for another frame. $3000 is too much to deal with any imperfections.

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100% agree.

If you're not 100% satisfied with it, send it back and get what you rightfully paid for.

4130biker said:

How is "burn through" bad? It would seem to me that full penetration of a weld is a good thing, and the uniformity of that from the back of the peice of metal is a bit trivial.

Also, 3mm out of spec, in what way? Rotation, or in relation to the chainline?

Just curious- cool to hear about the bike from a riding perspective, sounds fun!

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About 3mm out of spec in height. If you line up the guide to the tabs, the lower two mounts line up to the icsg tabs but the top tab does not line up with the guide. The tab is 3mm too heigh up and thus the guide won't fit.

bizutch said:

You said if you want to use "another" shock. Vivid Air is a toy and thus far the only exception I see in that thread. I won't be crying over air shocks on my DHR until Bubba Stewart does on his 450.

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someone also mentioned heavier rate springs would be super close to the link too

bushrider said:

Why is a low BB a deal breaker in NSW?
I ride the same places as you do in Aus and on the east coast of the USA and my bash ring sees more action in on the east coast.

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I said for me, I don't race, although I ride as fast as I can for pleasure, I'd rather not have to worry about clipping pedals as easy than have slightly better cornering from a low BB. No point having a low BB if you can't slam that sucker down in a corner for fear of hooking up a pedal. and I loathe and fear crashing from catching a pedal.
My Katipo has a 14" BB, and I smash the sh!t out of the pedals as is.

NAYR said:

About 3mm out of spec in height. If you line up the guide to the tabs, the lower two mounts line up to the icsg tabs but the top tab does not line up with the guide. The tab is 3mm too heigh up and thus the guide won't fit.

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That's a bummer! Not a once peice cnc bb/tabs on that one, eh?

4130biker said:

That's a bummer! Not a once peice cnc bb/tabs on that one, eh?

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I guess not lol. I would try to get it warrantied, but in reality, there is no way that they would give me a new front triangle. I mean, thinking from their perspective, Turner sold me a working bike. The ICSG tabs are just an add on. They don't inhibit you riding the bike, or present a danger of any sort.

If anything, I'm sure they would just pull off the tabs and re-weld, giving me some ugly looking piece of crap. Not to mention I would be out of a bike for who knows how long.

As far a the low bb goes, I did notice it at first. I hit 1 rock with my pedal on Tunnel(never ending rock garden essentially) on my first run on the bike and haven't hit any others since. You just adapt to it. It's not something that I even really think about after getting enough seat time in on the bike.

4130biker said:

That's a bummer! Not a once peice cnc bb/tabs on that one, eh?

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NAYR said:

I guess not lol.

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ianjenn said:

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You +1
Me 0
Congratulations! Hence why I usually don't ever get involved in these threads.

NAYR said:

You +1
Me 0
Congratulations! Hence why I usually don't ever get involved in these threads.

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Worth trying a different chain guide in case it wasn't the frame? It seems unlikely that it's the frame, but a couple guides would confirm it for you.

You sound like a great customer, but if it is indeed the frame at fault I think you'd have every right to request a new one. I doubt they would say "we sold you a working frame", the tabs are part of it.

No self-respecting company is going to re-weld an ISCG mount, and from what I have seen, Turner's customer service is quite good. A friend of mine got a brand new frame no questions, just because he thought he saw a crack.

Appreciate the honest review though. I don't think the "burn through" is an issue at all, I've seen it on all the frames I've owned (v10, demo8, sunday, etc) and didn't crack any.

Udi, we measured the tab spacing out at the shop and the tabs are definitely out of spec. Further, I've lined up my old e13 guides, and my two MRP G2 guides and none of them come close.

I'm not concerned about burn through; that's more my engineering major roommate than me. I could care less personally.

Also, I just want to be clear that I am not ragging on Turner in any way. Sure there are some things that are less than ideal, but that goes for any "custom" frame. I really like this bike. It rips.

IH8Rice said:

someone also mentioned heavier rate springs would be super close to the link too

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Heavier than 350 on a Vivid was mentioned to be a no go, and maybe some heavier rated Ti springs on other shocks.

NAYR said:

that goes for any "custom" frame. I really like this bike. It rips.

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Do they do custom Geo etc?

iRider said:

Welcome to 2011!

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=654982

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after reading that I am glad I didn't go with the dhr