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demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
I figure that we can keep it all in here, ill start with this. Why is it, that all slalom bikes *for example* (tazer VP, killswitch, yeti 4x, ect) Are so low to the ground (with bar heights specifically) I have a 23" killswitch, it feels super low, i have 2 inch rise bars and the recommended size travel. No matter what i do, i cant get my weight off the front, so i went to look and see if maybe it was just my bike, it seems that almost all the DS/4X type bikes, sit extremely low, i can see why, to get good grip and keep the COG down, but why so much over the front. I cant seem to just "like" this. Even if i were to get an inch shorter TT (which could help) they are still so low to the ground. How do you fellas ride these, and is there some kind of advantage? All i can see is that im super front heavy now, and im not even on a slope. Yes this is another demo 9 thread, but i figure we can just keep this 1 going since i know i am not alone sizing a short travel bike.

*edit*
1 step further, with all the weight on/over the front, it will be harder to manual, since more of your weight is infront of the BB, rather than behind. When i race bikes, i do alot of manual pumping, and jumping. I am not saying its impossible, but i find it very difficult to jump these bikes (i have ridden 3) than the small DH bikes. (like a wildcard) When i go to pick up the front, i have to lift my 220 lbs ass, rather than when your "in" a bike and more centered
 
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jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
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meanwhile, back on topic, slalom bikes are designed to track. the weight is farther over the front to help keep your front end glued, which helps cornering.


also, the killswitch is designed for slopestyle and DJ, not slalom/4x. And therein may lie your issue.
 

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
how tall are you?
5 11-yes im fat, and yes, it is designed for slopestyle and park, but its geometry is extremely similar, if you take a tazer VP or yeti 4x, they are very similar, maybe not in suspension design, but in geometry. It seems very common to see a 4 inch fork, internal (or close) headset and 1-2 inch bars, seems very low at least to me. It seems super easy to dial in a DH bike, but not as much with the short travel bike. BBs drop a tad, but the bars drop a ton (in relation to the rest)

On another note, anybody get some seat time on an SX, those are SUPER low (bb)

*and yes, i am a spoiled brat for the tag ninjas :rolleyes: Also fat, but it doesnt seem to slow me down, sux if you got beat by a fat guy eh?
 
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jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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front end isn't the only thing to be looking at. look at head angle. look at CS length. Look at overall wheelbase. Look at BB drop. When it comes to BB drop, even just a little bit of difference is gonna make a change. when you combine that with a slightly longer CS it's a noticable difference.
 

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
Interesting comparison

Tazer VP/killswitch
68 Ha vs 69
12.75BB to 12.5
16.75 CS to 16 flat

spesh SX
16.75 chainstay, 68HA and a 12.44 BB

Cowan DS/Bass
69HA, 16.4 CS, and a 13.2 BB

Anybody who has more geo, feel free to post it, ill add bikes as i think of them, but im sure i wont hit them all.

^ thats all i can compare on the killswitch since that is all that is listed, but that said, you would think that the lower BB and shorter stays would help the KS, rather than hurt it.

Hate on with the fatness, might hurt my endurance, but my times seem ok to me, just imagine, if i was skinny, i could be a pro!
 
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jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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3/4" difference in chainstays is HUGE. and for hardtails, 1/4" difference in BB is noticeable.

lower bb = harder to manual. *
shorter stays = easier to manual.*

*assuming everything else is the same.

so what exactly is your issue here?
 

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
3/4" difference in chainstays is HUGE. and for hardtails, 1/4" difference in BB is noticeable.

lower bb = harder to manual. *
shorter stays = easier to manual.*

*assuming everything else is the same.

so what exactly is your issue here?
Its not much of an issue, i mean i have a few, like the fact im heavily weighted over the front, but like it or not, thats how the bikes are made, and i am not going to buy on some 3.5 riser bars. I assumed that for slalom you want a bike poppy and snappy. I feel that the KS should be that, with very short stays, and a normal BB, however, i find that it doesnt feel that way. (the other 2 DS bikes i rode werent amazingly better either.)

I just feel that onRM we have hundreds of threads discussing the OMFG his BB dropped 10mm!!!!11!1ONE, but not much on the slalom side of things, im new to slalom bikes for the most part, so i can use helping setting them up, im sure others can as well, i get asked alot of questions i cannot answer, I am sure this can help others as well. Not worth a sticky, but a good thread for somebody looking to build a 4x bike.

*here is a bit on my story. I have a KS, its a 23". i was on the border between a 22 and 23, since the next batch is mid may (it was november) i decided to try a 23. I like the bike, its great on dirt jumps-extremely fun! That said, i have too much weight low and over the front, i like low bars to a point, but i cannot get into it. I tried a few more DS bikes, including neko mulally's eX spesh DS bike, and they all feel more or less the same to me. Too low, and over the front, some are better than others, but not by much. My bike is a KS, it is NOT the best DS bike, and for the most part, not much of a DS bike at all, but, i use it for many other things, so i opted to get it (and the price helped as well) I want to try to race it for DS type stuff next year, It seems to ME, that no matter how "tall" i try to make it, its just off. I do not want to get 3.5 inch riser bars, because in a sense, i may be trying to solve a problem that doesnt exist. (although i MAY raise the fork an inch, and slack the front out a tad more) On paper, this should rip, the CS is short, the BB is low (yes a tad harder to manual) That said, when i ride it, it feels like im ON the bike, instead of "in" the bike.

Feel free to help, or post your problems, ill try to help with the limited amount of knowledge i have
 
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demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
maybe it just feels odd because you're comparing it to your DH bikes? perhaps you should get a 20", then try comparing things
There is probably alot of truth to that, however, if i compare it to my hardtail, it still feels low, black market says this is on purpose, and gave some advice, but it didnt seem like it was much more than "this is how we made it, this is how it is supposed to be" My hardtail has the same basic set up in the front,except 80mm-but the BB is lower and the chainstay shorter, i feel much more "in" the bike, however, even that is apples to oranges

Doesnt help that i suck at BMX :D
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
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There is probably alot of truth to that, however, if i compare it to my hardtail, it still feels low, black market says this is on purpose, and gave some advice, but it didnt seem like it was much more than "this is how we made it, this is how it is supposed to be" My hardtail has the same basic set up in the front,except 80mm-but the BB is lower and the chainstay shorter, i feel much more "in" the bike, however, even that is apples to oranges

Doesnt help that i suck at BMX :D
comparing geometry between a hard tail and a full suspension bike is a futile effort, ones more static, ones more dynamic.

i honestly think part of your problem lies in that you bought a bike that was specifically designed for one thing, and are trying to do something else with it. These days we're seeing a lot of niche bikes that are designed to excel at one thing, this is one instance of it.

your TT length may have something to do with it as well. Depending on your body's size & proportions, there's a TT sweet spot so to speak, longer than this becomes too hard to manual, shorter than this and your manual will be too fidgety and squirrely, and you're more likely to loop out.


Doesnt help that i suck at BMX :D
I used to also. I still don't consider myself very good, but I have a lot of fun riding 20", and it helps me on bigger bikes quite a bit.
 

Tetreault

Monkey
Nov 23, 2005
877
0
SoMeWhErE NoWhErE
i honestly think part of your problem lies in that you bought a bike that was specifically designed for one thing, and are trying to do something else with it. These days we're seeing a lot of niche bikes that are designed to excel at one thing, this is one instance of it.
/thread honestly thats it.

you may think a degree in the HA or half an inch in bb or chainstay shouldn't mean the world of difference, but it does.

I feel more comfortable on low bikes like short travel full suspensions or hardtails, and the extremely high bar height on dh bikes still feels off to me its just what you are used to.

for fixing your killswitch, the only thing i can think of is maybe setting your fork to 120mm to slacken it out a bit, and adding a spacer under the stem, with a new bar thats higher rise with more sweep to bring the handling in closer to your body, also maybe the shortest stem you can find, some 35mm one. I still think its never going to feel right, because simply its the wrong bike
 

MDJ

Monkey
Dec 15, 2005
669
0
San Jose, CA
Well, I'm 6'2" 200 lbs and ride a large '07 SX with low rise bars and a Pike 454 dual air. I think the bike is amazing for DS. I'll go as far as to say it is the best bike for it's intended purpose than any other I've owned. The bike is simple to maual and just rails corners. Even with the relatively long wheelbase I take it to the dirt jumps all the time and have no problem.

-not sure if that helps in any way, but that's my impression.
 

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=1312279850536&set=a.1161836129537.2020320.1336831012&theater

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=1312281250571&set=a.1161836129537.2020320.1336831012&theater


i cant figure out how to embed pics on the new facebook viewer, so if u click, you can see how fat i am!

snapped 2 pics real quick, this is with the fork locked out, so no sag, i usually let it sag a tiny bit-but nothing huge.

I am aware it may not be the best DS bike ever, but truthfully, i was only getting 1 bike, a dedicated DS or a fully DJ bike, and the KS can do both, so that decided it. MDG, i am not dissing the SX in any way whatsoever, i am aware its better at DS, and its got a pedigree to prove it. I guess i am just trying to figure out the best way to "adapt" the KS to ride slalom, it CAN do it, and its been done, i just dont happen to love the geo (even for dirt jumping)
 
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jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
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the KS can do both
no, it can't. it's designed for SS/DJ, which has a different set of criteria for a frame than ds/4x.

ok sure, maybe it "can" in a loose sense, but if that's the case, than an XC race bike "can" do slalom, and so "can" a cx bike.

also, I own an SX, albeit an older one, and absolutely love it. I use it mostly for xc/trail rides, but it's gonna do double duty for slalom-esque races this summer. sure, it's different than most xc/trail bikes, but it gives me what i want for an xc/trail bike based on my riding style.


maybe you should reconsider the sx. like you said its got the "pedigree" for racing, but as kidwoo has proven, it makes a great dirt jumper as well.
 

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
maybe you should reconsider the sx. like you said its got the "pedigree" for racing, but as kidwoo has proven, it makes a great dirt jumper as well.
The SX wasnt ever off the table, for right now, i am trying to see if i can "modify" the KS to work a little bit better, its an easier option than buying a new frame (that may not jump as well)

As for all the fat remarks, hardly true, you can add all the fat tags you want, but id say i am far from fat, i am ALMOST husky, it was more of a joke.



there is your reference, since i am assuming most of you were too lazy to click on the above links

and look, the fat moves
http://www.pinkbike.com/video/148414/
 

freeridefool

Monkey
Jun 17, 2006
647
0
medford, or
Maybe you should sell half you bikes, get a road bike and put in some work. Get down to a healthy weigh so you don't have to lift you fat ass to manual. Stay off the dh bikes for awhile and get used to the killswitch. I have a hard time going between my demo and my p1. Just gotta get used to it.
 

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
Maybe you should sell half you bikes, get a road bike and put in some work.
Wont sell them, but i have been doing a fair amount of work, i am at the gym 3x a week-i dont see any changes and i am not jacked, but i have nothing better to do, I have a road bike, but i hardly use it, id like to start, but i feel like the gym is so much better, run 30-45 min on the elliptical, than 30 mins on the bike, which is usually about the time my bad knees give out.(bad knees) Lift weights with my friend as much as i can, which unfortunately comes and goes in waves.

I am still the laziest DH rider you will meet, but at least i try :thumb:
 

Commencal-guy

Monkey
Nov 25, 2007
341
0
Massachusetts, US of A
Spooky Bandwagon 4x
HA 67.5
cs ??
BB height ?? 13. something...
wb???




The rest of the info I forget. I'm ganna have to dig up some old files that Mickey sent me when he built me one of these frames. The bike is an absolute killer!

However the bike is one of the slackest hardtails i'v ever ridden. Took a bit to get used too.
 

Tetreault

Monkey
Nov 23, 2005
877
0
SoMeWhErE NoWhErE
I can't help but feel as though this entire convo was already covered a few months ago. Maybe you should have listened to the people that had actually rode a killswitch. (wink wink nudge nudge)

Killswitch: itl be with an 831 and industry 9 wheels, primarily for racing dual slalom and 4x
ME
geo is a little steep for some racing, and the pedaling is off, and there are better alternatives out there
disagree with you on that, at least this particular bike, the geometry is very similar to a hard tail, but you still have a little squish when you land, aside from the added weight, you benefit from the jumping capabilities of a hardtail, but the landing abilities of a fully
ME
I know your probably going to think im just ragging on you again, but if you want a DS 4X jump kind of bike, i really suggest you look at something else, not taking away from it as its a great jump/play bike, good for someone with only 1 bike thats rides dj's, some trais, and overall playing around. For someone that already has a hardtail and a 6" bike (yourself) i think you would benefit far more from something a little more dedicated to the race side of things with slacker geo and a better suspension platform. such as a spec SX, yeti 4x, intense tazer.
 
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ATOMICFIREBALL

DISARMED IN A BATTLE OF WITS
May 26, 2004
1,354
0
Tennessee
When i had a Moorewood NDIZA it was the absolute fastest,quickest bike & was 100% perfect for 4x-slalom.It had 4.5" of travel & awesome geometry.It manualed easy.Floated over bumps & jumped it seemed all by itself.Cornered excellent too.

The thing that "made" me get rid of it(that year model) was the freaking seatpost creaked horribly when raised more than the standard race height.There was some things that made it quiet for about 3 minutes maybe but came back 10 minutes later even louder.It was insane.
The newer Ndiza's had that problem fixed but i believe they screwed up the geometry(imo) by making the HA steeper after that year or so.
 

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jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
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tetreault has a point. when it comes to hardtails, slight changes make big differences. a degree in HA is a big difference. a 1/4" in CS is a big difference.

with bmx bikes, they're sized by TT length, and primarily come in 1/4" differences, some as small as 1/8" differences.
 

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
Just so people do not get the wrong idea, i am happy with the KS for dirt jumping and whatnot, its not a bad bike, i just think that it could be better (as far as fitment) I know it wont pedal as well as some of the other bikes, but it can be a singlespeed-which is a big factor to me. I like it, but i feel there can be more potential than i am aware of. I (hardly) have any complaints on the way it rides, just the fitment. If i could get "into' the bike a little more, i would be VERY happy withit. Just my .02. Anybody think i should get a smaller one? Could this be a TT issue? How much of a benefit (for racing) will i see with another 20mm of travel, but more importantly a slacker HA and another 20mm of tallness
 

yuroshek

Turbo Monkey
Jun 26, 2007
2,438
0
Arizona!
You wont like the smaller one because the TT will be just that bit to small. You are most likely going to feel cramped and not like how you fit on it. Look into an older Yeti hardtail, Ive always had a thing for them, seemed like the geo was amazing.
 

Tetreault

Monkey
Nov 23, 2005
877
0
SoMeWhErE NoWhErE
the fit of the bike is always going to generally be the same, its due to its longer toptube, low bb, and steeper then conformable head angle. my recommendations from before is all that i can think of you trying to get it to fitt differently. Raise up the travel the 20mm, a shorter stem, and a taller bar with more backsweep, this should raise up the front end, bring the bars closer to you, raise the bb slightly, and allow you have some weight on the back of the bike, that being said, its a dj fully, so it only has 16" chainstays, you may find that it actually becomes squirrely if you make these changes.
 

4130biker

PM me about Tantrum Cycles!
May 24, 2007
3,882
447
Demo9 is built like an actual adult, not a 14 y/o twig. Im afraid the ones who bitch about this place turning into pinkbike are the guys taking it in that direction (see tags).

It seems like the moderators can't handle a shot of boobs, but regularly bashing fellow riders is just fine?????
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,562
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Demo9 is built like an actual adult, not a 14 y/o twig. Im afraid the ones who bitch about this place turning into pinkbike are the guys taking it in that direction (see tags).

It seems like the moderators can't handle a shot of boobs, but regularly bashing fellow riders is just fine?????
i have no idea what you're talking about. i've provided nothing but legitimate responses.

 

4130biker

PM me about Tantrum Cycles!
May 24, 2007
3,882
447
It wasn't aimed at you, and I dig your opinions since you also have the bmx Background.

I think discussing geo of ds bikes is good. My howler wasn't the greatest jumper, but I eventually got used to it. The front was a good 3-4 inches lower than friends w/ more traditional AM rides. It cornered great, was definitely exciting to ride on rough trails, but it did take some getting used to.

So, I bet there's hope for the kilswitch, you'll just need more time on it. Maybe even take it on some more dh trails to something that is familiar terrain to eliminate that variable. Sure it'll be slower, but the fun is huge. Especially if you can still hang w/ your buddies on big bikes.
 

ZoRo

Turbo Monkey
Sep 28, 2004
1,224
11
MTL
The smaller the bike gets in terms of travel and wheel size = the smallest geo changes make a noticable impact of how the bike behaves.

Take this bike for instance.



I know that bike well enough, having raced on it last year. The chainstay lenght adjustement feature really points out to different feel you can get with different chainststay lenghts. 395mm does not feel like 410 and vice versa.

SO, you can't as Tetrault said, make a jump bike into a perfect DS/4x bike and vice versa. It will certainly make a decent racer in capable hands, but won't be as good as real 4x/DS racer.

LeeLikesBikes tried to transform a XC type hardtail into a pumptrack bmx track hardtail. He seems to like it, but still saying that a proper 4x/DS bike will outperform the modified xc hardtail.

It's all about the purpose builds nowadays! I remember the good old days when I raced XC on Saturdays and on Sundays, lowered the seat and raced DH on the same bike!!!
 
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was?

Monkey
Mar 9, 2010
268
30
Dresden, Germany
if you are to far up front anyway, i doubt that a shorter tt will be an improvement. my canfield has a ridicolously short tt and i had to adapt my riding stance a bit.
I´ve changed forks and headsets yesterday and lowered the front by roughly 2", the bb came down 1/2". i wouldn´t say it is harder to manual, different, yes.
 

roel_koel

Monkey
Mar 26, 2003
278
1
London,England
some more geometry to compare

this is what I ride (Banshee Rampant)

with 100mm fork (argyle) and 2.35" maxxis tires

69 degree HA
70 degree SA
13" bottom bracket
22.24" top tube (short) 23.22 (long)
41.57" wheelbase (short) 42.55" (long)
26.57" standover height (short) 26.69" (long)