What really counts on a downhill bike?

We speak frames of whole bikes? I think besides good tires rider position is the most important(and with that goes proper sizing, cockpit and things like different CS for different frame sizes). After that Geometry, predictable suspension, stiffness and durability (just not to worry about the bike). Brakes on par with durability. In my opinion the main thing my bike has to do is to make me feel confident. A proper mindset will help me ride much faster than a bit faster bike that makes me worry. That's why I'd rather have a bike that may not be super spectacular in one or two things but has no annoying features that will distract me.


Last part I bought was an Ava cardridge. Mainy for piece of mind and not to worry that my boxxer internals are going to leak when I do something stupid. That plus I in some cases my boxxer was performing sub par. Though I have to admit I'm a gear whore and I think my bike is already pretty dialed so little changes to be made.

Nice post. Never actually stopped to think that hard about it. For me the biggest factor is brakes. If they're not working or howling like a stuck pig, it really puts me off. When they're working well, you can brake later into corners and generally feel much more in control.

Suspension setup to me is important but I've seen people ride just as fast with blown shocks or seized up forks.

I forget that people used to charge down Mammoth and Cap d'Ail at ridiculous speeds on what are pretty much supermarket bikes these days. I'd be interested to see what the average joe would clock up on the same course on new tech.

I guess what I'm saying is that the most important thing is to be comfortable on the bike - whether that means a stiff frame, predictable suspension etc will vary from person to person.

My newest purchase was some new wide bars. Partly to jump on the bandwagon and see what it's like but also because 2 years is a while to have a set of thin alu bars and I got nervous.

Ha norbar, you beat me to it!

Socket said:

what characteristics of your bike do you think make the biggest difference to how (and how fast) you ride? Geometry? Brakes? Weight? Suspension travel? Component/frame strength? Stiffness? Gearing? Suspension setup? Tyres?

When you're shopping for a new DH bike, what kind of ride characteristics are you chasing? In fact, what was the last non-wearing (ie not tyres or brake pads or whatever) part that you bought/upgraded and why did you buy it?

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All are important, but for me geometry is #1. If the geometry isn't dialed for me I'm going to hate riding the bike and will be going much slower then I want to be. As long as everything else is at least working (brakes, tires suspension etc) I can still have fun, they don't have to be perfect.

When I'm shopping for a bike the number one thing I'm looking for is geometry. Assuming I'm buying complete the fork comes next (just due to the cost of buying separate), then rear shock, then brakes, then wheels.

Last non-wearing upgrade I made to my bike was a Push MX Tune for my DHX.

riding a large frame definitly changed my riding style, i was always on a medium before, the change gave me much more confidence. so i say riding a frame with the correct size for you is the most important thing.

can´t comment on dh bikes. but in all around play and freeridebikes, i´d go for geometry and a balanced suspension.
the geometry part is tricky though. i got back into riding about three years ago, and have owned four quite different bikes since then, and i´d be hard pressed to tell which one was superior.
probably the canfield, which is waaaaaay to small for me and is in its third reiteration by now. if the geometry and fit isn´t totally off and the rider is somewhat capable to adapt his riding style to the specific bike, complaining about smaller quirks is what is left.
the last parts i bought for my bike were a pike+zerostack headset+35mm stem. that lowered the front of the canfield by roughly two inches, which is neither good nor bad.

I am against normal as always, I love 5deg sweep bars to get in the "attack" position a low BB and a short back end, I also don't really care abou weight as long as parts don't flex when I try to get the power to the ground.

I am also more of a fan of aggressive ramp up in forks and shock as they reach the end of the stroke, I have gone form an Elka to a Bos shock and the characteristics of the Elka are great but they have no small bump sensitivity and change characteristics mid run, but I find the Bos too linear for my liking(possibly frame).

I do agree low and slack is where it's at, I have to run my Nicolai with a 13" BB height to get it slack enough to feel nice. I am also a fan of straight gauge spokes to reduce spoke stretch, others say they are weaker as they snap at the elbow, these people are idiots, yeah they snap more often but if the spoke stretches less in the middle the rim deflects less. Save weight at the rim, not on the spokes.

This rant is brought on by numerous free beers, sorry.

Current bike page four- http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228719&page=4

I am a larger rider, buy that I mean fat. I buy first for Proven durability. I am not so concerned about bike weight as I am about a frame and components that will stand up to my weight and my hack to crash ratio. I tend to look for set and forget type parts. I like a low standover and a longer top tube. I just feel more comfortable with a top tube in the 23.5-24" range,as my gut gets in the way on shorter frames. I have short arms so I also like a higher rise bars to keep me from being bent over too far. I go with parts that are not so much trendy, more on the function before fashion mode.
As far as suspension goes I have always like mine very linear. This year I am going to something more progressive and lively to see how that works out. A little slacker geometry helps keep the weigh tslightly centered, but no so slack that it puts me too far forward. a little higher bottom bracket so I dont need to overspring the suspension to keep from hitting pedals constantly. Suspension always needs to be custom tuned and re valved and changed to heavier oils.always run the same bars, seat, pedals and grips. Once you find something that works, why change ?

Geometry/sizing first, tires second, everything else behind that. And not just for DH, this goes for all my bikes. If the geo is off for my taste, nothing else matters.

For me its the combo, of suspension and frame geo, and set up of brakes to suit me.

the rest has a lot less impact on my riding.

geometry is my first deciding factor. i like a bike with a long WB and longer TT than most people like. usually when buying bikes, i geek out and make a spreadsheet of all the bikes im looking at just to make comparisons easier.
also, the type of suspension design is a deciding factor for me. ive ridden single pivots for years and love em. ive also had my fair share of VPP's and also love them as well...while the DELTA suspension performed fairly well, i felt it blew through travel way too easy and i didnt like that at all. it also meant me clipping my pedals on almost every pedal stroke, which can be a scary thing sometimes.
also a company's prior reputation is also now a priority after the debacle i had with Evil.

parts decision is based on my prior experience with them

Proper handlebar selection combined with the brake levers in the right spot with the right modulation/power is what means the most to me.

Norbar's post is good. It is that way I'd think if I had the bike dialed at good way for longer time then getting down on smaller details as rider's capabilities.
I remember when I was noobie in early days, I didnt quite put finger on what was wrong when I bought used bike. It was front suspension that was too soft. It took much longer time before I understood that. That mistake hold me back from progressing as rider.

So well balanced suspension is most important for me. With bad geometry, tires it is easier to ride much faster with balanced suspension than vice versa. I usually compare my thinking to car racing. There are many odd vehicles (lets say non most optimal geometry) but they'd run fast with good tires and suspensions. It is easier overcome those geometry differences.

After suspensions, come tires, brakes. It is those things that are crucial how you hold down the bike on the road (besides suspensions I mentioned above).
Lastly, smaller details are geometry and rider's mental capability that make the whole package to shine.

I remember that once I switched to 65 HA and 13,5 BB from 67-68 and 15BB and it made difference. But less difference than badly dialed suspension vs. good. Because I did run that "good" geometry with overblown fork

Last part I bought is an used fork I so I can set up this with Ava cartridge. I think it will be my first decent fork, lol. It is the last part I needed for the bike to be complete (at basic level).

If I buy new bike from shop, I'd look for suspension that affect characteristics of bike (design philosophy etc). I'd love to test difference sizes of bike but I dont have that luxury.

It all starts with tires. As they say: it is where the rubber meets the dirt.

Joss DeWaele said:

It all starts with tires. As they say: it is where the rubber meets the dirt.

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Right All I hear of 99% talk from F1 drivers are tires.

Tomasis said:

Right All I hear of 99% talk from F1 drivers are tires.

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He is correct tires most important, suspension, fit, and finally geo.

wheel path, followed by geometry.

TIRES!!! most important by far, if the tires suck i cant ride no matter how good the bike is.Right up with tires is suspension, if its not setup atleast ball park the bike will never ride right, then brakes, if im not confident my bike is gonna stop its terribly distracting, not to mention where you place the lever reach is a HUGE factor when it comes to arm pump on difficult trails, Next i would have to say is the fit, being 6'2 its not easy, geo never seemed that important, put any pro on any frame, with there typical setup and theyll still haul ass.

The rider counts most; everything else is window dressing unless you're at the top level of the sport.

aaronjb said:

The rider counts most; everything else is window dressing unless you're at the top level of the sport.

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Thats a given.

1st GEOMETRY
Everything involved with the geometry of the bike, this includes the suspension system. This is by far what it makes more differences on the bike and this also involves the handlebar, stem,...

2nd SUSPENSION (setup)
You need to keep the tires on the ground, so with the suspension system this helps a lot to get the grip, feeling on the bike, stability and so many things

3rd OTHERS
Tire is not that important to me, or at least not that much. Have you tried to time you with different tires? What makes the difference is that not all the tires work same way, give you the same feeling. When you've been riding the same tire for 3 years any tire change is so difficult. Just check that there is many riders that use High roller (and probably they ride it all the time) and others minions (and ride it all the time aswel). So to me with tires is more about the confidence a tire that you are used to gives back to you. I still remember qualifying on leysin 2000 world cup with a front tire (spike) on really muddy conditions it slowed me for sure, but damn it was flat and I did 3/4 of the course flat!

Also look val di sole this year, you had people going crazy fast with maxxis tires (spikes and non spikes) and Gwin almost taking it on the schwalbe ones... Also tire is a cheap thing and you can get them on everybike

I don't post too much on here, but I have so much to say about it I cannot resist.

I will now list what I have found to be the most important. I have been racing DH for 8 years now, 4 of which have been in Pro and on Pro courses. This is what I've learned.

1.) Tires, Nothing is more important than a good set of sticky rubber. There are a lot of good companies now making good tread and good rubber. Examples include Schwalbe, Maxxis, Specialized, Continental, GEAX, Micheline...All good tires with real sidewalls and soft 42a rubber or softer. Having this many good tire companies is good for us non-sponsored Pros as well because we can choose what to run and get the cheapest. Even just two years ago most of these companies were making crap, so it is good to see so many good ones.

2.) Cockpit, So often I witness people with the weirdest setups. Now of course people should set up their brakes, bars, seat angle and all of it to their own needs and likings, but there is a line to be drawn. I am not saying everyone has to go out and set up everything the same as the world cup pros, but at least spend more than 20 seconds setting up the angles on your bikes bar, brakes and seat angle. This may not sound important, but when you want to reach your maximum potential it becomes extreemly important. For instance, if you have your brakes angled way up and flat. You will get worse arm pump, if your seat is tilted flat or down you will lean over the front of the bike more.

3.) Suspension, This doesn't come first, nor second because these days good suspension is everywhere. In the past (like 10 years ago) I would have just said, "buy a boxxer, be happy". These days almost any company can make a good set-up and be reliable too. So my advice to getting faster is to buy what the Pros run and set it up accordingly to the tracks that you ride everyday. LEARN!!! About your fork and shock inside and out. Down this mean you need to know how to take it apart? NO! Just learn what every little dial and switch does before you even take it out on the trail. Know what High and Low speed compressions are. Learn about preload if you have a coil fork and how a lot of it can effect the small bump sensitivity when you ride. Know that rebound is very important and should be taken seriously. Rebound can effect how your wheel stays on the ground for more traction over loose, rocky, or soft and sandy terrain.

4.) Stiffness, This sorta comes before everything else if you think about the extremes. If you have a bike that flexes all over the place (looks flexy). You will have not only less precision in the corners and through big bumps, but also less confidence in yourself to hold a line through any sort of section.

5.)Geo, This is very important, and an easy one to answer. Go SLACK, and LOW. There is no such thing on the market today as too slack or too low. Everyone who says they like their 66dg head angle and 14.3in BB is LYING! DH is MOTO with pedals. So mimic everything they do. Right down to the wide bars and moto sounds when going past people on the trail.

There are a lot of other super important things like stuff wheels, the CORRECT bar height, not too low that you are hunched over, and not too high that you are disconnected from the front end. Also, brakes are super important. I cannot explain everything just on here though or else ridemonkey would be overloaded and explode.

Confidence is everything in DH. Learn through repetition how to set up your bike for the track, ask for tips from friends and companies, and always accept that nothing works perfect the first time. That is where the repetition comes in.

Sorry for any mis-spellings. I jammed through this because I AM GOING TO RIDE MY BIKE!

brakes, geo, tires, suspension. in that order, reasons have already been stated by others.

Braking is a massive part for me, if I don't have confidence that I can pull up it really limits how silly I'm willing to get on a bike. The irony is that super powerful brakes with little modulation are just as bad or worse IMO.

Geometry is the next thing. A HA slack enough to encourage me to be stupid and a front centre long enough to let me move around and hide behind the handlebars if I need to. I can't ride bikes with short top tubes very well (or any bike for that matter, but particularly shortish ones). A roomy front centre means I can be less subtle with weight shifts in loose corners and makes me more confident on steep stuff. Obviously I mean long top tube in comparison to the rest of the bike or else I'd just run a large size frame.

Suspension rates higher than tyres for me, as tyres won't really work if your suspension is set up wrong anyway IMO.

ianjenn said:

Thats a given.

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You'd scarcely know it reading these forums.

Train harder? Practice more? Naw, spend a few grand on some parts and kit, that's the ticket.

I'm also going with tires first, then shock setup, then fork setup. If I try a new tire and I don't like it, it's coming off right away. But I have run bad suspension setups a lot! (By mistake.) Shock setup seems a bit more important than fork, and it's hard to get right, but when you got it you know it and the bike feels great - predictable and confidence inspiring. My feeling is the shock is much more important than the actual suspension type, although it's important that your shock works well with your suspension type and leverage curve. Geometry is important, but as someone else says, you can adapt. Pedalling performance is right up there for me as well, I like to feel the acceleration as you put in pedal strokes, not a load of squish.

I'd say geometry is most important to me, followed by at least reasonable suspension setup and finally some attention to detail on bar position, brake lever angle & reach etc. I don't think badass tires are entirely necessary. I've had a lot of fun on old worn out tires (workin on those drifts ya know).

As an aside, I've seen reference to "slacker geo" like a motorcycle. What's the head angle on a modern dirt bike? Are they in the 62-63 degree range? Or slacker yet?

I'm surprised nobody has said the obvious single-factor answer:

the rider

slowitdown said:

I'm surprised nobody has said the obvious single-factor answer:

the rider

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Money buys skill.

slowitdown said:

I'm surprised nobody has said the obvious single-factor answer:

the rider

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Did you even read Socket's original post?

After todays ride, I'd like to add contact points to the list. Most grips and pedals ar pretty awesome these days, but riding with bad grips or bad pedals or both sure makes a bike feel very ordinary.

That's a complicated question, in large part because you're saying "lets take a bunch of really incredibly refined factors that all come together to make something extremely complex, and then pick which factor is the most important!" Certain things you just take for granted - brakes, drivetrain wheels, for instance, and other things are at the constant forfront. cockpit, geo, and the way suspension fits into that framework seem to be pretty important to most people.

1. Geometry
2. Suspension (set-up)
2. Suspension (design)
4. Tires/Grips/Gloves/Shoes
5. Weight

I basically can't ride with gloves that have any padding on the palm or grips any thicker than ODI Ruffians. Neither can I keep my feet on the pedals without 5.10's. Rather important IMO.

I think the overall package is the most important part, not any single item.

slowitdown said:

I'm surprised nobody has said the obvious single-factor answer:

the rider

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I'm surprised you didn't read the first post.

Or replies 21 and 22.

Maybe you should... um... slow it down a little?

slowitdown said:

I'm surprised nobody has said the obvious single-factor answer:

the rider

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I think a lot of people are more surprised that you can't read.

Here's how I see it. I usually build a bike to my spec or look for something that fits my spec closest. I have always had to build to a budget so I look to maximise bang for buck.

Firstly, the frame. Rider position being the most important, followed by rear suspension.

Then as far as components go, the biggest difference can be felt in the wheels(lighter=better and better quality=longer lasting) and suspension- better dampers, not more adjustability makes the biggest difference.

After that, brakes and a good but cheap chain device(nothing is worse than losing a chain in a race run. In the world of chain devices, expensive doesnt always equal good at keeping your chain on.

Alot of money can be saved by buying entry level cassette, bars, stem,seatpost and seat without losing any performance, albeit you will add a little weight.

Shifters and derailers dont offer much added performance, even if you spend alot more. My derailer of choice is a 105 with a deore shifter. The same goes for pedals(how much difference does a Mallet 3 make over a Mallet 1 when you pinning it? not much. But how much difference does it make to you wallet when you buy it? ALOT)

As for cranks and BB, go for the best you can afford, I find nothing worse than loose cranks and clicking BB's.

I'm surprised nobody said drivetrain.

It's not my first though, I'd probably say geometry first, then cockpit, and then drive train. Since the first two have talked about pretty thoroughly I'll go on about drivetrains.


Somehow when you first get on a bike and click that shifter, when the chain slides into gear with solid thud and the bike drives straight and without complaint when you pedal it feels almost as if the bike is telling me that we get along.

I don't think geometry is quite as important as some people seem to think. I think there are some fudge factors to angles and stuff, and as long as you get a bike that fits, other things will begin to line up. Plus when you factor in dynamic geometry under sag and out on the trail, the numbers get a lot more difficult to calculate. Then you add in that different bikes sag differently, people run different amounts of sag, and you start getting to a point where 63 on paper means 61 on the trail, or 64 in a corner, or whatever. I think as long as you're in the ballpark and each thing is adjustable independently, you can find something that you're comfortable on and happy with

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I think it's very important to get it right specifically. Not on the spreadsheets but in the real world. There are ballpark standards for each measurement but for different frames and designs different angles matter. Just because you feel comfortable on say a frame with 65 degree head angle, and then move over to a frame to a 64 or 63 degree head angle and still feel comfortable doesn't mean that head angle isn't important to you, it just means that perhaps the dynamic geometry of the frames are very similar or that the different angles compliment the differences in the frames to form two bikes that are similar when the package comes together.
It may be complicated and heavily affected by people's tastes but I'm pretty sure it should definitely be in the top 3. But as for the people who are saying they'll only ride bikes with 64.23 head angles and 13.57bb heights, have fun calculating the dynamic geo numbers you need!



69th post!