XC training for DH (pedals)

norbar · Mar 28, 2011

Go with clipless. Its the easiest shift in XC. Try time atac - they have some float so after riding flats they wont feel as bad as shimano.

jnooth · Mar 28, 2011

I'm a true flats guy and I have been wondering this myself. I have tried both and honestly I feel like I get the most out of training on flats. I think I change my riding style to much to get full benefit. I still ride road clipped in for obvious reasons but I really like riding xc on flats. Correct me if I'm missing something, but riding xc with flats will only make you stronger.

norbar · Mar 28, 2011

jnooth said:
I'm a true flats guy and I have been wondering this myself. I have tried both and honestly I feel like I get the most out of training on flats. I think I change my riding style to much to get full benefit. I still ride road clipped in for obvious reasons but I really like riding xc on flats. Correct me if I'm missing something, but riding xc with flats will only make you stronger.

So why not ride Road with flats?

thom9719 · Mar 28, 2011

Most of the pros I know that race DH on flats, ride XC on flats.

-KT

bikerpunk98199 · Mar 28, 2011

Try both, do what works for you.

aaronjb · Mar 28, 2011

No self-respecting rider would be seen with riding flats on an XC bike.

/runs

That said, there's probably some benefit to riding XC on flats once in a while.

frankthetank · Mar 28, 2011

I've been riding flats for xc for many many yr's and switched to clipless around two yr's ago,for xc peddling it's much more efficient,no thought process. The trick is mix it up,switch your pedal's from flats to clipless every so many rides it keeps you sharp and your leg's guessing.

ncrider · Mar 28, 2011

ride flats if you race with flats. Training is suppose to build stamina, but also make you comfortable with your equipment. Switching pedals would make you feel off.

RajunCajunNC · Mar 28, 2011

I run flats for dh and xc. I am riding xc for fun and training, so I don't care that I could squeak out a couple of seconds on a 2 hour xc ride if I were to wear clips. The fact that I can go out and play on the xc bike likes its a mini dh bike is way more fun.

Nagaredama · Mar 28, 2011

Good insight into Sam Hill's training on flat pedals in the VitalMTB feature.

frankthetank · Mar 28, 2011

RajunCajunNC said:
I run flats for dh and xc. I am riding xc for fun and training, so I don't care that I could squeak out a couple of seconds on a 2 hour xc ride if I were to wear clips. The fact that I can go out and play on the xc bike likes its a mini dh bike is way more fun.

Yes much more fun I would agree,I guess I could be more specific a 2-2.5 hammer fest xc ride(A) I need my clipless if I don''t want to be lost.2-3 hr fun ride give me flats

norbar · Mar 28, 2011

RajunCajunNC said:
I run flats for dh and xc. I am riding xc for fun and training, so I don't care that I could squeak out a couple of seconds on a 2 hour xc ride if I were to wear clips. The fact that I can go out and play on the xc bike likes its a mini dh bike is way more fun.

Its doable to play on my xc bike like its a mini dh bike on clipless too

I get the adjustment thing but I ride flats for dh(though only 1 season) and ride clipless for my xc. The transition is non existant and I think you can take more out of your xc bike on clipless (less energy spent on going up = more energy to go down)

yuroshek · Mar 28, 2011

p.s. its a 2011 trance x :thumb:

dreads · Mar 29, 2011

i was in the same predicament as you demo once winter rolled around. picked up a trance x and was riding with flat pedals for a month or 2. decided to give clipless a try and it really changed things, climbing is much easier and i can ride for longer. maybe it does use less energy but i think having more fun riding XC is much more important to keep the drive alive. also learning how to ride clipless was a fun challenge. if you have been riding flats all the time then going back to flats after riding XC on clipless wont be an issue

jrewing · Mar 29, 2011

RajunCajunNC said:
I run flats for dh and xc. I am riding xc for fun and training, so I don't care that I could squeak out a couple of seconds on a 2 hour xc ride if I were to wear clips. The fact that I can go out and play on the xc bike likes its a mini dh bike is way more fun.

You must be me in a parallel world. :thumb:

was? · Mar 29, 2011

if you are riding xc for exercise, clipless would be the way to go. once you´ve got the hang of it the difference shouldn´t be that big. extended uphill sections are way easier and clipping in and out is just a matter of training. but you can ride xc with flats, at least that´s what i do.

jonKranked · Mar 29, 2011

i've been riding clipless for over a decade. switching between clipless and flats is only a mental thing. if you think its gonna be different, then it'll be different. clipless does take a little bit of time and practice to get used to, but if its taking you more than 3 rides to get accustomed, well...

Sandwich · Mar 29, 2011

i'm with krankypants. I've been riding clipless on my xc bike since 97 and I can't imagine riding anything else. The additional power you get (ever heard of the upstroke) is almost double, plus you use separate muscles. Yeah, you may fall over the first couple times, but once you get the hang of it, it's not an issue.

Switching back to the dh bike is no problem, especially if you have 5.10s and good pins. You lose the upstroke, but traction is there and your feet are just a little easier to lift off. I'm thinking about going clipless for DH, but most of the places I ride are steep enough that extra power is not as big an issue as a quick foot dab.

was? · Mar 29, 2011

demo 9 said:
I guess i am not worried about the clipping in/out part, but correct me if i am wrong, upstroke is 100% useless for me when i ride flats. I am sure i am just missing it, but if i ride uphill for a mile on flats, i got a 1 mile workout on my down strokes only (the ones i use racing) If i were to ride clipped in and pull up (aside from an easier workout) wouldnt i have to ride double to match it (and 50% of that is still wasted)

nope, you are training your overall muscular complex, don´t know the correct name though, but there shouldn´t be a problem. if you are doing it right your downstroke will not become weaker. and training your antagonists will not hinder you from pushing yourself harder.

Sandwich · Mar 29, 2011

depends on how you look at it. In reality, you're doing the same work on the downstroke, you're just getting an added (let's say 50%) amount of power on the upstroke. Now you can ride longer and burn more energy (the point of training) than you could normally.

If you look at it as though you won't be putting that same effort on the downstroke, then yeah, you lose some. In reality, my upstroke is probably 25% or less of the power I put down, but the technical climbs get a real boost, and it helps you spin better, which may lead to less pedal bob.

ride · Mar 29, 2011

Clips for DH, flats for XC.

It's the only way to go, you get the best of both worlds. Cross training at it's finest.

captainspauldin · Mar 29, 2011

Sandwich said:
i'm with krankypants. I've been riding clipless on my xc bike since 97 and I can't imagine riding anything else. The additional power you get (ever heard of the upstroke) is almost double, plus you use separate muscles. Yeah, you may fall over the first couple times, but once you get the hang of it, it's not an issue.

Switching back to the dh bike is no problem, especially if you have 5.10s and good pins. You lose the upstroke, but traction is there and your feet are just a little easier to lift off. I'm thinking about going clipless for DH, but most of the places I ride are steep enough that extra power is not as big an issue as a quick foot dab.

Yup, I can switch between the 2 without much thought.. I road XC back in the day w/clipless so it's kinda 2nd nature, that being said I have no desire to ride DH clipless. Crank Bros pedals w/the extra float is nice, but may be harder for noobs as it takes a little more effort to clip out?

ricod · Mar 29, 2011

was? said:
nope, you are training your overall muscular complex, don´t know the correct name though, but there shouldn´t be a problem. if you are doing it right your downstroke will not become weaker. and training your antagonists will not hinder you from pushing yourself harder.

What he said /\

If your muscles are more balanced you will have less risk of joint problems down the road. Plus, if you get good with clips, maybe one day if the course demands it, you will have the option to run clips on a dh run

Uncle Cliffy · Mar 29, 2011

Interesting read here.

Good purchase on the Trance X BTW. Looked like a sweet ride.

Pegboy · Mar 29, 2011

Sandwich said:
The additional power you get (ever heard of the upstroke) is almost double, plus you use separate muscles. QUOTE]

This is a misconception that I recently learned about. I'll quote a study done at Georgia Tech:

The two limbs are coupled by the cranks so that while one limb is in recovery, the other is in its power output phase. In order to generate the same baseline power, the flexor groups of the ascending limb must increase muscular activity 1.1 to 3.4 beyond baseline performance and increase the whole body metabolic demand by 9%[12] to overcome these gravitational and inertial forces to pull the foot up faster than it is being pushed up by the opposite limb. Attempting to pull up and generate positive power during this phase will increase mechanical effectiveness but at a high metabolic cost[13] regardless of cycling experience and pedal type.[12] Korff et al. (2007) studied the energy requirements of different pedaling techniques and reported that the cyclist's preferred technique was the one most metabolically efficient, and that consciously altering this technique, e.g., pulling up, resulted in a decrease in metabolic efficiency. This was the case even when the cyclists were pulling up as they remained unable to generate positive power during this phase. Attempting to pull up will certainly reduce the demand on the opposite limb but the costs appear to outweigh any possible benefits available at least to intact cyclists.[12]

I was surprised as I always thought that clipless were used to create more power. While it is possible, it is not really the case. I talked with the guy who performed the study (he used to work with Carmichael training and Lance Armstrong) and he states that clipless pedals are mainly used to keep the foot on the pedal at high revolution speeds at the top out position. Without them, their feet would fly off the pedals. Interesting, especially since the main reason for using clipless in DH is...to keep your feet on the pedals.

So while I would counter and say clipless will at least allow you to give certain muscle groups a chance to recover, overall it uses up more energy. So yeah, ride what you are comfortable with.

Inclag · Mar 29, 2011

Pegboy said:
I talked with the guy who performed the study (he used to work with Carmichael training and Lance Armstrong)

Ask for any good PED's???

Sandwich · Mar 29, 2011

Pegboy said:
So while I would counter and say clipless will at least allow you to give certain muscle groups a chance to recover, overall it uses up more energy. So yeah, ride what you are comfortable with.

fair enough, but I would argue that A) you can get additional power when you need to with clips, say a technical climb or more importantly a long grinding one, and B) you can always use less power by not pulling up. In "A" you can get a quick boost- even if you lose efficiency momentarily. In normal riding conditions you use "B" and ride like flats.

I find that I mostly pedal like a normal dude with my clipless pedals. Occasionally, particularly on long ass steep but not technical grades, I will bump in some "pulling up" to get an extra boost.

It would certainly be interesting to see where pro riders are using "pulling up" in addition vs. normal pedaling.

Edit: after going back and re-reading the article, I took a second to step back and say "duh". Power in=power out...if you are pulling up, and therefore adding more power, you're body is going to be working harder. I mean, I'm not saying you suddenly get more power by using clipless pedals, but you simply get more options for applying it. If you're a top level turdfrance rider, then you could probably "pulling up" and pedal normally all day long. Am I wrong there? I don't have access to the full article but that's what I glean from the quote you posted.

Sandwich · Mar 29, 2011

Uncle Cliffy said:
Interesting read here.

Good purchase on the Trance X BTW. Looked like a sweet ride.

interesting read but it sounds like a lot of fear mongering a la Fox News. "Everybody is wrong but me" says the author. "disregarding that every rider at the top level of the sport rides clipless pedals and that they were banned as a performance enhancer at times in certain fields, clipless pedals are garbage and solely responsible for injuring people". It's like he's saying that clipless pedals will fly at your knees from off the shelf and put you in crutches.

He disqualifies everything about clipless pedals....they don't offer enough float (ever ridden times?) they don't allow your knees to remain in a natural position (they have chips for that, A, and B do flats suddenly offer natural pronation prevention????) they don't allow you to move your foot in a crash...but he doesn't offer any alternative criticism for flat pedals. Good flat pedals and 5.10 shoes offer no float at all. Most flat pedals are flat, not tilted. 5.10 shoes are not offered in a stability variety, though I suppose you can get insoles. Finally, a lot of people can attest to the fact that repositioning your foot with good pedals and 5.10s can be a very big challenge.

I think you gotta do right by you and ride what you're comfortable with, but cycling is a dangerous sport in any aspect and whether you ride road or trail or DH with flats or clipless, you'll probably become one of the 85% injured he loves throwing around.

For me, and I assume most normal people, the benefits of clipless pedals are very real, and clipless pedals have their place, ie on a road or XC bike, not on a DH bike. There will always be naysayers and people who argue, and that's fine, but (to the author of that article) you have to look at it from two sides, not simply debunking one.

jonKranked · Mar 29, 2011

Sandwich said:
interesting read but it sounds like a lot of fear mongering a la Fox News. "Everybody is wrong but me" says the author. "disregarding that every rider at the top level of the sport rides clipless pedals and that they were banned as a performance enhancer at times in certain fields, clipless pedals are garbage and solely responsible for injuring people". It's like he's saying that clipless pedals will fly at your knees from off the shelf and put you in crutches.

He disqualifies everything about clipless pedals....they don't offer enough float (ever ridden times?) they don't allow your knees to remain in a natural position (they have chips for that, A, and B do flats suddenly offer natural pronation prevention????) they don't allow you to move your foot in a crash...but he doesn't offer any alternative criticism for flat pedals. Good flat pedals and 5.10 shoes offer no float at all. Most flat pedals are flat, not tilted. 5.10 shoes are not offered in a stability variety, though I suppose you can get insoles. Finally, a lot of people can attest to the fact that repositioning your foot with good pedals and 5.10s can be a very big challenge.

I think you gotta do right by you and ride what you're comfortable with, but cycling is a dangerous sport in any aspect and whether you ride road or trail or DH with flats or clipless, you'll probably become one of the 85% injured he loves throwing around.

For me, and I assume most normal people, the benefits of clipless pedals are very real, and clipless pedals have their place, ie on a road or XC bike, not on a DH bike. There will always be naysayers and people who argue, and that's fine, but (to the author of that article) you have to look at it from two sides, not simply debunking one.

don't forget that bike james was the asshat who made a whole blog post about "why was she wasting her time road riding?" when rachel atherton got hit by a car

Pegboy · Mar 29, 2011

Sandwich, I added the link so you can check out the study. You, knowing who I am at least, will understand the context of the study and how I know about it. That being said, this particular study is out of context with the topic at hand but the initial part of the study is based on past studies that relate more towards road biking.

http://poi.sagepub.com/content/33/3/256.full

aaronjb · Mar 29, 2011

Pegboy said:
Sandwich said:

I was surprised as I always thought that clipless were used to create more power. While it is possible, it is not really the case. I talked with the guy who performed the study (he used to work with Carmichael training and Lance Armstrong) and he states that clipless pedals are mainly used to keep the foot on the pedal at high revolution speeds at the top out position. Without them, their feet would fly off the pedals. Interesting, especially since the main reason for using clipless in DH is...to keep your feet on the pedals.

Click to expand...

You mean a second-rate coach who knows little more than how to inject junior riders with cortisone, and a fraud of a rider who implied that a higher cadence is how he could maintain Pantani-like wattages on the world's toughest climbs? Yeah, I think I'm a little wary of any experts who assert authority by throwing those names around.

manhattanprjkt83 · Mar 29, 2011

captainspauldin said:
Yup, I can switch between the 2 without much thought.. I road XC back in the day w/clipless so it's kinda 2nd nature, that being said I have no desire to ride DH clipless. Crank Bros pedals w/the extra float is nice, but may be harder for noobs as it takes a little more effort to clip out?

same here man, i ride flats on my dh and dj bike...

the xc and city bikes have clips...I switch out the clips for flats on some trips where it is more dh'ish xc....

It's really pretty seamless for me but i really prefer flats most of the time

OGRipper · Mar 29, 2011

Learn to love clipless pedals not just for your immediate purpose but for a lifetime of riding bikes.

I ride flats for DH and urban/dj, but clipless for pretty much everything else. Being able to switch back and forth is great.

And anyway, I think it's pretty silly to say clipless pedals have no place on a DH bike when a good chunk of the World Cuppers use them. Once again, a matter of opinion becomes objective fact through the distorted lense of the interweb, :rolleyes:

Pegboy · Mar 29, 2011

aaronjb said:
You mean a second-rate coach who knows little more than how to inject junior riders with cortisone, and a fraud of a rider who implied that a higher cadence is how he could maintain Pantani-like wattages on the world's toughest climbs? Yeah, I think I'm a little wary of any experts who assert authority by throwing those names around.

Click to expand...

The person responsible for the study did not throw those names around; I mentioned the names to show a relation between the researcher and more than a basic knowledge about cycling. Because he was associated with a company that was associated with Lance Armstrong, does not negate his ability to perform research. I do find it amusing that your comprehension skills and expertise in the field lead you to believe that it does.

Sonic Reducer · Mar 29, 2011

Sandwich said:
Good flat pedals and 5.10 shoes offer no float at all. Most flat pedals are flat, not tilted. 5.10 shoes are not offered in a stability variety, though I suppose you can get insoles. Finally, a lot of people can attest to the fact that repositioning your foot with good pedals and 5.10s can be a very big challenge.

agreed, 510 soles are way too thick. the support, foot protection, grip and durability of them is great but you cant feel the damn pedals. to me that's very distracting and i find myself just wearing vans hi top old skools for the minimal ankle guarding and thin ass soles. the vans will start to hurt my arches after a day at a big chopped up mountain like whistler or keystone but for PNW stuff they are great. also the 510s are so damn grippy that its hard move your feet around on the pedal when they shift, and they will shift no matter what with flat pedals. the honeycomb on the vans can at least be slid around a little bit but still maintain grip. ankle coverage is a must though.

clips on a DH bike kick ass if you can deal with them. better pedaling and you wont ever get bounced off the pedals when it gets really rough. to me they are distracting and kind of a liability, say if i have to unclip for a second then there is a stretch where i cant relax but need my foot solid in the pedal right away. also i found that to have them hold my foot with a consistency i liked, i had to run the retention so high that it became difficult to bail out correctly if i was to crash. i basically got fed up with them. not to mention there's something less fun about a bike you are physically attached to in some way. though I know people who haul ass wearing clips but cant bunnyhop with flat pedals so YMMV.

climbing or pedaling hard for any sustained time without clips just feels like wasted muscle groups to me. pedalstroke is less smooth. the muscles being used will be fatigued faster than if you had your full pedalstroke. In that scenario I'd rather be putting down as much power as i can and focusing on hauling ass. there's generally not as much need for fine tuned bike control. Im not much of an xc guy, i race XC once every 2 years or so but run clips on my trail bike pretty consistently.

XC training for DH (pedals)

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