Thats funny...... after all this, the resort has signs telling you to inspect the feature before hitting it....... Seems pretty straight forward
Diablo Negligence WTF????
- Thread starter bullit398
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- blow-out haircuts branches for bicthes check yo sheet diablo apologists! diablo sucks dick dirtymike is a birther dirtymike............. dying mountain happensatplattyallthetime jabba the hutt knuckledraggers learn gross negligence monkey balls our poop doesnt stink platty has moar trails platty owns diablos mom platty trails are clear premier danger zone shawn willrecchyo for $ snookie closed it tags got deleted?
For certain morons, an alternate route is required.
i think they should leave the branches that drop is super lame/easy my buddy got a rear flat on the run in stopped tried to fix it on the trail got frustrated and then launched that drop with the rear flat with no problem in front of 3 diablo local/regulars
I agree. I expect to see debris used in this manner on local trails, not at a bike park that hosts the US open.
Good thing they were locals, visitors would have lost their minds.i think they should leave the branches that drop is super lame/easy my buddy got a rear flat on the run in stopped tried to fix it on the trail got frustrated and then launched that drop with the rear flat with no problem in front of 3 diablo local/regulars
Edited for completeness.
cool story. did you then hit it with two flats??i think they should leave the branches that drop is super lame/easy my buddy got a rear flat on the run in stopped tried to fix it on the trail got frustrated and then launched that drop with the rear flat with no problem in front of 3 diablo local/regulars
4 pages you knob - you need to make your pages show more posts
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Inspect the feature as in know what you're hitting, dont go blind, not to look for debris. they are to define the feature; jumping and dropping requires advanced skills; avoiding debris in a blind landing of a prepared trail you are paying for access to, is not a skill or the purpose of that warning. Reasonable inference would not be there, courts would agree.
I have a D'Blo season pass and like to ride there, but this is inane. No one was seriously hurt, and I expect Diablo to minimize it - it's wise. But for all the comments in here that deride the rider as if this was his fault at all, is ridiculous. Sure the onus is on the individual to look before they leap, look both ways before crossing - but in the end, its not their actions or inactions that caused the dangerous situation.
Lame as hell.
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If the "feature closed" sign fits, you must acquit!!
Every comment in the thread taken into account, putting debris in the landing is foolish, and dangerous.
Diablo should have been direct with the OP and spoken to him, and should learn from this and NEVER close a feature in this fashion, otherwise expect the record of zero litigation to be at risk...
Diablo should have been direct with the OP and spoken to him, and should learn from this and NEVER close a feature in this fashion, otherwise expect the record of zero litigation to be at risk...
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yep. especially if someone removes and steal the closed trail markers
Well, I've learned one important thing from reading this thread. You can increase the number of posts shown in the User CP options!!!
Thanks CBJ!
Thanks CBJ!
Based on comments in this thread, and my own experience, markers do get removed -- resorts know this, and should act accordingly.
Stephen's right, whether the trail was open or not, its common sense to just look at the drop- especially after a wild winter. I guess that is one advantage to filming too! We all have to hike and look at everything when we are shooting
if the winter was so bad, maybe they should have taken an extra weekend for trail maintenance, prep work, etc and delayed their opening a week.
Assuming this is 9am and no one has ridden the mountain yet. Do you walk through Dominion prior to every run to make sure its clear?Stephen's right, whether the trail was open or not, its common sense to just look at the drop- especially after a wild winter. I guess that is one advantage to filming too! We all have to hike and look at everything when we are shooting
The riders would have been up-in-arm's, you know that. Another whole week!
That is torture for the people who don't understand that safety is of utmost importance.
but but but theres a sign!
And to the thread tag'gers - doesnt ever happen at Platty, trail crew would never put blockage in the LANDING of a Tranny. It's moronic.
Plenty of 'dynamic' trails at platty, none have a pile of logs on any of the tranny's open or closed. Any of the 20x as many drops - no logs INTENTIONALLY placed in tranny. Who made that decision? Sean Mankiewicz?
Plenty of 'dynamic' trails at platty, none have a pile of logs on any of the tranny's open or closed. Any of the 20x as many drops - no logs INTENTIONALLY placed in tranny. Who made that decision? Sean Mankiewicz?
ok... so, i've read all the posts, and i agree.
i agree that responsibility lies with the rider. i agree that responsibility lies with diablo (or any resort for that matter). easy enough.
however, i have to whole-heartedly disagree with those stating every rider must, at all times, claim final and complete responsibility for his or her safety by taking every precaution, inspecting all features and ultimately assuming the role of liable party in all cases. come on. seriously?
i understand that conditions on any tail network, in any state (or province) can change at any time, due to natural events or those orchestrated by man. i am well aware that on practice and race day, as the multitude of riders negotiate the terrain, when it's time for me to take my laps, the course can, and will most likely be markedly different than when i last made a run. i take precautions on my local trails to walk the runs before i ride to make sure there aren't any "surprises" (natural or otherwise) that may cause harm. i take it easy on my first few runs at any bike park, checking jumps and features to verify conditions and any changes from my last visit. and, at any location, i inspect a feature that is new to me for any and all elements to first decide if i am capable, and second, if i even want to hit said feature. this all seems pretty reasonable...and even falls within what i would consider common sense.
but... if we are to abide by the rule of constant doubt and assume all liability, every rider would be forced to inspect every rock, every jump, every step down, every bridge, every single feature (natural or constructed), every single run of the day, in order to properly ensure that he/she won't encounter anything beyond what was originally observed (and intended) for that trail. at a park, every rider would have to exit the lift, walk the trail or trails of choice, walk back to the trail head, hope that no one else takes a lap prior to he/she swinging a leg over the bike as well as, that, God-forbid, any rider takes a spill at any point, or by any natural occurrence, a branch or rock moves from its originally scouted location, on the previously selected trail. this is the only way to completely take on all responsibility.
please, by a show of e-hands, let me know if anyone in the forums is fulfilling this role at any point in time and completely taking all liability and responsibility. didn't think so.
that may be a little extreme, but let's all at least be reasonable. we take our warm up laps, hits, whatever... we do some basic scoping. but, at some point, when we are laying down cash to ride at a lift-assisted park, we all just ride. we get off the lift, we role down trails, we hit features, we let go and assume the conditions are moderately predictable and within a certain realm of acceptability. we all do it. that's the reality of the situation.
conditions will change. features will be different. riding at 2pm will be different than riding at 9am. riding in september will be different than riding in may. we each have to realize our abilities and ride within them. i can accept all that, but i will never fully accept all the responsibility and liability for entities that are paid to maintain a level of safety and control, becoming an overly anxious, constantly worried and an unnecessarily cautious bike rider. and honestly, no matter how many e-claims are made, i don't expect any other rider to either...
i agree that responsibility lies with the rider. i agree that responsibility lies with diablo (or any resort for that matter). easy enough.
however, i have to whole-heartedly disagree with those stating every rider must, at all times, claim final and complete responsibility for his or her safety by taking every precaution, inspecting all features and ultimately assuming the role of liable party in all cases. come on. seriously?
i understand that conditions on any tail network, in any state (or province) can change at any time, due to natural events or those orchestrated by man. i am well aware that on practice and race day, as the multitude of riders negotiate the terrain, when it's time for me to take my laps, the course can, and will most likely be markedly different than when i last made a run. i take precautions on my local trails to walk the runs before i ride to make sure there aren't any "surprises" (natural or otherwise) that may cause harm. i take it easy on my first few runs at any bike park, checking jumps and features to verify conditions and any changes from my last visit. and, at any location, i inspect a feature that is new to me for any and all elements to first decide if i am capable, and second, if i even want to hit said feature. this all seems pretty reasonable...and even falls within what i would consider common sense.
but... if we are to abide by the rule of constant doubt and assume all liability, every rider would be forced to inspect every rock, every jump, every step down, every bridge, every single feature (natural or constructed), every single run of the day, in order to properly ensure that he/she won't encounter anything beyond what was originally observed (and intended) for that trail. at a park, every rider would have to exit the lift, walk the trail or trails of choice, walk back to the trail head, hope that no one else takes a lap prior to he/she swinging a leg over the bike as well as, that, God-forbid, any rider takes a spill at any point, or by any natural occurrence, a branch or rock moves from its originally scouted location, on the previously selected trail. this is the only way to completely take on all responsibility.
please, by a show of e-hands, let me know if anyone in the forums is fulfilling this role at any point in time and completely taking all liability and responsibility. didn't think so.
that may be a little extreme, but let's all at least be reasonable. we take our warm up laps, hits, whatever... we do some basic scoping. but, at some point, when we are laying down cash to ride at a lift-assisted park, we all just ride. we get off the lift, we role down trails, we hit features, we let go and assume the conditions are moderately predictable and within a certain realm of acceptability. we all do it. that's the reality of the situation.
conditions will change. features will be different. riding at 2pm will be different than riding at 9am. riding in september will be different than riding in may. we each have to realize our abilities and ride within them. i can accept all that, but i will never fully accept all the responsibility and liability for entities that are paid to maintain a level of safety and control, becoming an overly anxious, constantly worried and an unnecessarily cautious bike rider. and honestly, no matter how many e-claims are made, i don't expect any other rider to either...
Some good posts in this thread, but some of you don't seem to understand shared negligence or liability rulings.
If OP had injured himself seriously and sued, pretty much no question that the resort would have been found negligent. I've ridden resorts where features are blocked off uphill, but just on the landing = WTF.
If OP had injured himself seriously and sued, pretty much no question that the resort would have been found negligent. I've ridden resorts where features are blocked off uphill, but just on the landing = WTF.
Strangley enough, if you stop to check out a feature to see if teh landing has been changed, lengthened, a new lip on the take off, new burm turning in ETC..... a Byproduct of said checking is... you would find the debri in teh landing as well....
I snipped that down from there........... Underlined the important part.......
How can you not understand that in the very end of everything..... you have to be responsible for yourself......... Its like your neighbor shooting in the backyard, and you assume your going to be safe because it is their responsibility to set up proper targets and backstops...... Or do you call the cops and put an end to it.................
Or its like the guy on a motorcycle on the freeway changing lanes in front of a semi.... telling himself that the semi should let him over.......
Its exactly the same thing with downhill..... dont trust that everything on a trail anywere any place is just exactly the way it was the last time you rode it......... because its probably not the same.
Im not saying be a pussy and walk a trail everytime, just take it easy for your first run and dont go hitting a blind feature at a speed you cannot stop in time......
So on every run you must stop and inspect every feature? You'd be lucky to get in 5 runs a day!
First - It's been a couple years since the Business Law courses I took in college (ok, a decade+), but the thing that sticks out in my mind is "reasonable expectation", or what a reasonable person can and can't expect to encounter. It's why ski areas can't have well-groomed green circle trails leading to a huge cliff and expect their liability waiver to protect them. In my mind, a reasonable person can expect to hit a feature on an OPEN trail that has been cleared at the top (and no "closed" signage or tape) and not have debris intentionally strewn across the bottom. A reasonable person can expect to see ruts, erosion, etc, but intentionally strewn logs/branches running lengthwise down the landing? Not a chance.
Second - Whoever at Diablo who handled the OP's initial conversation should be fired. You always, always, ALWAYS try to keep someone happy if you think that they might sue you. What would it have cost, $100 for a new helmet? Compared to tens of thousands of dollars it would have cost if the OP were to have sued, and that's if they'd WON. More likely it would cost tens of thousands of dollars to come up a settlement of tens of thousands of dollars, or hundreds of thousands of dollars if it had gone to trial and they'd lost.
Third - Seriously Shawn? Someone took the time to remove logs and debris from the top, take down the signs / tape (and take it with them instead of just cutting through it), rake the trail, and then decided that climbing down and removing the debris at the bottom would be "too much work"? I'm not expecting you to admit that someone screwed up and forgot to clear it, but I highly doubt that there are such highly motivated (clearing the top) and yet completely lazy (not clearing the bottom) riders out there.
Fourth - If it's so commonplace for people to remove closed signs, why not make them out of something a little sturdier than course tape?? Bolt a "closed" sign to the top of the bridge, or have large signs posted that have an "open/closed" flap with a small lock on it to keep it in position. There has to be *some* way that you can note which are open and which are closed beyond just simple race tape tied across the entrance.
Second - Whoever at Diablo who handled the OP's initial conversation should be fired. You always, always, ALWAYS try to keep someone happy if you think that they might sue you. What would it have cost, $100 for a new helmet? Compared to tens of thousands of dollars it would have cost if the OP were to have sued, and that's if they'd WON. More likely it would cost tens of thousands of dollars to come up a settlement of tens of thousands of dollars, or hundreds of thousands of dollars if it had gone to trial and they'd lost.
Third - Seriously Shawn? Someone took the time to remove logs and debris from the top, take down the signs / tape (and take it with them instead of just cutting through it), rake the trail, and then decided that climbing down and removing the debris at the bottom would be "too much work"? I'm not expecting you to admit that someone screwed up and forgot to clear it, but I highly doubt that there are such highly motivated (clearing the top) and yet completely lazy (not clearing the bottom) riders out there.
Fourth - If it's so commonplace for people to remove closed signs, why not make them out of something a little sturdier than course tape?? Bolt a "closed" sign to the top of the bridge, or have large signs posted that have an "open/closed" flap with a small lock on it to keep it in position. There has to be *some* way that you can note which are open and which are closed beyond just simple race tape tied across the entrance.
I agree. I have a Master's degree in safety science and I've learned plenty of about liability and responsibility. Diablo wouldn't last a minute in court on this issue based on the information provided here. In fact, their response(shown here) would dig them much futher in the hole. Gross negligence and mismanagement. Kinda sounds like it's run by a bunch of "rad dudes" with no real business sense. There is no other way to put it.
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No, not EVERY run..... the first pass on a run you take it easy, going at a speed you can stop if needed, this way you can see changed before you hit something, when coming to a blind feature, you stop and check. Then you can get out and go balls out.... you have personally looked for major changes...... It wont slow you down that much..
On the note of reasonable expectations.... I get that, I udnerstand that, I know which way this would go in court should the rier have been seriously injured...... I am not debating that in any way, as I belive many others are not debating that.......
I am simply saying that the rider, as he even said himself, could have prevented the situatuion as well through a little simple personal responsibility......... Its a blind drop, it was his first run, he hit it with enough speed he had no option but to hit the feature, the mountain even posts signs telling you to check things first.
Its exactly the same as someone handing you a gun, tellin g you its not loaded, you proceeding to shoot yourself in the foot....... YOu hand me a gun, I clear it myself before I go cycling anything.....
That's not even close to reality. How do you take a "gap" at "easy speed"? Either you clear it or you do not. When you get on that bridge you can no longer stop/abort. It's a resonable expectation that the trails are clear of major (un-natural/unusual) debris since you are paying to use their facilities. If I had hit said drop before (past season, whatever), I'd hit it too.
Ummmmm, no. The signs are up to tell you to check out the feature to ensure that you know what it is and that your skills can handle it, not to check to see whether the trail crew had intentionally fuxored the landing.
Also, while I don't know about the OP's skill-level, I know that for myself I would hit it (blind) confident in my abilities to ride out any naturally occurring debris/ruts/erosion/etc. If a branch had fallen cross-wise across the trial, so be it. If they turned a 5' drop into a 9' drop with a longer tranny, I could handle it. Those are things that can be reasonably expected, and so it's the rider's responsibility to check for them if he/she isn't confident in his/her riding abilities.
Multiple logs/branches intentionally placed *lengthwise* in the landing is not expected.
Also, while I don't know about the OP's skill-level, I know that for myself I would hit it (blind) confident in my abilities to ride out any naturally occurring debris/ruts/erosion/etc. If a branch had fallen cross-wise across the trial, so be it. If they turned a 5' drop into a 9' drop with a longer tranny, I could handle it. Those are things that can be reasonably expected, and so it's the rider's responsibility to check for them if he/she isn't confident in his/her riding abilities.
Multiple logs/branches intentionally placed *lengthwise* in the landing is not expected.
As a matter of fact, dominion was the first run I took in the morning before anyone had ridden it (at about (9:15) and no I didnt walk it because it's table tops so I dont have to go big on the first run. I was simply stateing that hits such as drops, were there is no way out once you are in the air, should be looked at before you hit them for the first time in a season.
Bottom line: If Diablo had a warning sign (or signs) up saying the trail was closed, the fault lies with the rider. If Diablo didn't, then it was grossly negligent and could have been in trouble if the rider got hurt badly. We have he said/it said here since Diablo claims that it did, but there is no evidence offered other than its word and it quickly cleared the branches from the landing. No, Diablo doesn't get a pass because it is the 1st day of the season or because it is run by cool guys or because of lack of park riding in the area. Thank God that the rider didn't get hurt and I hope that this serves as a lesson to all those involved.