I'm getting a headache. Something else to Fu<k with?
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Angleset problem
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Either I'm real lucky, or my bike isn't resonating any noise. (Trance X Advanced.) Sadly, I never want to remove the fork ever...
There are so many things I have to try now on the M9, that it's pretty much a complete nuisance... If I want that bike slacker, I'll go "Works" for sure...
I was talking more so about running an offset top cup and offset bottom cup.
Load of doody.yup, I couldnt get it to work for the life of me. Mr. Skatodd installed it one shot with a TON of thick grease and it worked. Might I mention he installed it 2 times and it worked great, no problems. I myself could not do it.
so yes it was USER ERROR!
Anytime something that should be easy is evasive like this, I'll go with design error. Lucky you, but if you clicked, you will click again.
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It sounds like an issue with the angleset could be with the bearings being hit or miss in the amount of play they have in them. I just installed one on my delirium a few hours ago following the instructions from canecreek on youtube and I got a pop sound doing a testride off a curb. Anyone try using the stainless steel bearings like the ones that are from an s8 headset? Not sure if that would help but I have a set in another bike that I could swap in to give it a try since they appear to be the same size.
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Guys, I edited my post a bit to make it easier to understand, (sorry It was on my phone on the couch late at night) and I'll continue on here.
I didnt want to contribute to this thread since I dont really have solid answers about it! I have installed 10 of these headsets so far and each one has taken a lot of time. A couple of them are running quiet and trouble free, but most are still not.
I tried different greases, since using grease makes aligning the gimbals easier to do since they don't taperlock as quickly with grease on them.
It is a lot easier if you only have the crowns to work with so remove the fork legs all together.
It seems that the zero deg offset cups are running more quietly. It may be that the gimbals align more easily, or maybe since they sit straight they have more surface contact area. It may be dumb luck.
I asked CC if they would change the headset and go to a press fit bearing into the gimbal to take one loose fit out of the equation but they said they did that in prototyping and it didn't help with noise. They're convinced the noise is the gimbal/cup interface and it just has to be aligned. I feel it would still help make it all a lot easier.
The scarring some of you are seeing in the gimbal/bearing interface is two things- One- if the gimbal is crooked then the bearing is going to rub more in one area than the other. Two- all headsets that use drop in bearings will eventually rub the crap out of the cup they sit in especially on a DH bike. I usually get 1 season out of a headset with drop in bearings before the ano is worn off the cup and the bearing begins to knock around. I refused to use headsets like this many years ago but here I am again. I dont think going to their high end stainless bearing will make any difference.
Using an anti seize is working OK. It allows you to be able to align the gimbals without them trying to taperlock on you during the procedure. It may take up some space in the gimbal as well and help with the noise. Then again it may prevent the cup from locking so it could move around and make noise. I wish I could have a better answer but it still seems to be trial and error at this point.
The reason some frames us the offset cup in the top is because they can. If you have a 49/49 (classic 1.5) head tube it could go either way but would probably change your geometry and wheelbase less. Giants for example that use a 44/56 headtube have to have the offset cup in the bottom because thats the place with the most room to do it. My Giant kept the top tube about the same but the wheelbase grew. My bars are a little closer though since the steer tube is more relaxed which puts the top of it closer to me.
They guys at CC are good people and are trying hard to make cool products. When I spoke to them they were calm and caring about my problem. At the time, which was a few weeks ago they were not getting calls about problems and I thought I was just going nuts. They felt they had a solid product. Now there are many people with this headset and the riding season has started. Im curious to see what, if any, changes will be made to improve this. Id say if you have an M9 and your bike came with it, and youre using the zero deg cups then just remove it and use something else. Shoot- I dont think its worth a .5 deg. In my case Im at 1.5 deg trying to make a 6 bike into a mini DH shred machine so Ill keep running it.
I didnt want to contribute to this thread since I dont really have solid answers about it! I have installed 10 of these headsets so far and each one has taken a lot of time. A couple of them are running quiet and trouble free, but most are still not.
I tried different greases, since using grease makes aligning the gimbals easier to do since they don't taperlock as quickly with grease on them.
It is a lot easier if you only have the crowns to work with so remove the fork legs all together.
It seems that the zero deg offset cups are running more quietly. It may be that the gimbals align more easily, or maybe since they sit straight they have more surface contact area. It may be dumb luck.
I asked CC if they would change the headset and go to a press fit bearing into the gimbal to take one loose fit out of the equation but they said they did that in prototyping and it didn't help with noise. They're convinced the noise is the gimbal/cup interface and it just has to be aligned. I feel it would still help make it all a lot easier.
The scarring some of you are seeing in the gimbal/bearing interface is two things- One- if the gimbal is crooked then the bearing is going to rub more in one area than the other. Two- all headsets that use drop in bearings will eventually rub the crap out of the cup they sit in especially on a DH bike. I usually get 1 season out of a headset with drop in bearings before the ano is worn off the cup and the bearing begins to knock around. I refused to use headsets like this many years ago but here I am again. I dont think going to their high end stainless bearing will make any difference.
Using an anti seize is working OK. It allows you to be able to align the gimbals without them trying to taperlock on you during the procedure. It may take up some space in the gimbal as well and help with the noise. Then again it may prevent the cup from locking so it could move around and make noise. I wish I could have a better answer but it still seems to be trial and error at this point.
The reason some frames us the offset cup in the top is because they can. If you have a 49/49 (classic 1.5) head tube it could go either way but would probably change your geometry and wheelbase less. Giants for example that use a 44/56 headtube have to have the offset cup in the bottom because thats the place with the most room to do it. My Giant kept the top tube about the same but the wheelbase grew. My bars are a little closer though since the steer tube is more relaxed which puts the top of it closer to me.
They guys at CC are good people and are trying hard to make cool products. When I spoke to them they were calm and caring about my problem. At the time, which was a few weeks ago they were not getting calls about problems and I thought I was just going nuts. They felt they had a solid product. Now there are many people with this headset and the riding season has started. Im curious to see what, if any, changes will be made to improve this. Id say if you have an M9 and your bike came with it, and youre using the zero deg cups then just remove it and use something else. Shoot- I dont think its worth a .5 deg. In my case Im at 1.5 deg trying to make a 6 bike into a mini DH shred machine so Ill keep running it.
way too much work to get a headset to work. 
and im surprised CC is finally acknowledging there is a issue too.
i used drop in bearing headsets for years from CC and Hope and didnt have issues. the gimbal interface along with the drop in bearings is the issue here.
if they went to press fit bearings, i believe it would resolve the issue...especially if the gimbals arent absolutely perfectly seated
and im surprised CC is finally acknowledging there is a issue too.i used drop in bearing headsets for years from CC and Hope and didnt have issues. the gimbal interface along with the drop in bearings is the issue here.
if they went to press fit bearings, i believe it would resolve the issue...especially if the gimbals arent absolutely perfectly seated
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Hey Kris
I am curious if you or anyone has tried to step-wise tighten the headset while simultaneously 'releasing' or re-centering the various interfaces in the headset (sort of similar to your system of moving the Gimbals/bearings with a tool).
Something like this:
-anti-seize the crap out all interfaces
-assemble all parts in what appears to be proper articulation
-now tighten the cap to where there is still 'just a little movement' in the system
at this point you start a iterative process of:
- gently rocking the fork/crowns back an forth and side to side
- at the same time turning the fork in something like 60* increments for the full 360* (pay attention to trying to find 'center' such that all parts are aligned and free-moving rather than wedged and 'stuck')
-Tightening the cap ~1/4 turn
- Repeat until FULLY tight.
It sounds like things are getting stuck/bound and then tightened in a situation where they are not 100% aligned. Then when loaded, they break free causing the noise (most likely sticking in another non-aligned position) and the cycle repeats.
Complete alignment (if possible) and then proper tightening would prevent this from happening.
It also seems like top cap clearance has been an issue for several people. Micro spacers have been a NEED for just about every 'IS bearing' style headset that I have used (road bike, adapter cups, press fit, drop in fit, etc).
I am curious if you or anyone has tried to step-wise tighten the headset while simultaneously 'releasing' or re-centering the various interfaces in the headset (sort of similar to your system of moving the Gimbals/bearings with a tool).
Something like this:
-anti-seize the crap out all interfaces
-assemble all parts in what appears to be proper articulation
-now tighten the cap to where there is still 'just a little movement' in the system
at this point you start a iterative process of:
- gently rocking the fork/crowns back an forth and side to side
- at the same time turning the fork in something like 60* increments for the full 360* (pay attention to trying to find 'center' such that all parts are aligned and free-moving rather than wedged and 'stuck')
-Tightening the cap ~1/4 turn
- Repeat until FULLY tight.
It sounds like things are getting stuck/bound and then tightened in a situation where they are not 100% aligned. Then when loaded, they break free causing the noise (most likely sticking in another non-aligned position) and the cycle repeats.
Complete alignment (if possible) and then proper tightening would prevent this from happening.
It also seems like top cap clearance has been an issue for several people. Micro spacers have been a NEED for just about every 'IS bearing' style headset that I have used (road bike, adapter cups, press fit, drop in fit, etc).
I'm about to give this a try. I decided to move the cups around to give me a longer reach on my V10c and I was able to insert the lower cup by hand. Hmm. I am laughing even though I'm a little bit frightened. here we go...
First install went easy. I followed CC's video and ended up with no popping or creaking. I used Park PolyLube 1000 for cup to frame lube. I used Silkolene grease for the bearings and gimbles. Neither grease is super thick.
I started with a -1.5* on top, 0* lower.
I needed to swap out my Boxxer Team for my Boxxer WC so I took the opportunity to change up the headset.
I installed a -1.5* on the bottom, -1.0 on the top. I used the same PolyLube/Silkolene setup and again followed CC's directions. No popping or creaking in my initial test ride around my block and over my pump track. It seems that everything will work out so far, but we'll see how I did when I sober up.
I just went out and measured my wheelbase.
1. Stock: 45.25"
2. -1.5 degree cup on top, zero degree on the bottom: 45.5"
3. -1.0 degree cup on top, -1.5 degree cup on the bottom: 46"
I'll get to ride both days this weekend and see how things go.
I started with a -1.5* on top, 0* lower.
I needed to swap out my Boxxer Team for my Boxxer WC so I took the opportunity to change up the headset.
I installed a -1.5* on the bottom, -1.0 on the top. I used the same PolyLube/Silkolene setup and again followed CC's directions. No popping or creaking in my initial test ride around my block and over my pump track. It seems that everything will work out so far, but we'll see how I did when I sober up.
I just went out and measured my wheelbase.
1. Stock: 45.25"
2. -1.5 degree cup on top, zero degree on the bottom: 45.5"
3. -1.0 degree cup on top, -1.5 degree cup on the bottom: 46"
I'll get to ride both days this weekend and see how things go.
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let us know after a day of riding. I might like to try a 0.5/1.5 setup.
Yeah I have only had that happen a few times in all my years as a mechanic and it was usually on aluminum frames with ovalized headtubes, not a brand new $3000 carbon frame...
Not cool dude! You definitely have something screwed up.
Edit: Sending frame back to Manufacturer to have it checked along with the HS.
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MmmBones, I think it could also be possible that the specs on your cups aren't right. I recently tried putting some evil reducer cups on a brand new Bullit and I was able to put the bottom cup on by hand while the top cup was appropriately snug. When I tried switching the cups, the bottom cup easily slipped on the top of the headset and the top cup was snug on the bottom of the headset. I took this to indicate it was a problem with the cups and not the frame. Worth a try. It definitely seems like a bad idea to run it with a loose cup, regardless.
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Turns out this IS the case! The cup is the culprit and I am sorry I ever doubted you Santa Cruz. Your product is magnificent and amazing and I can not thank you enough for making such a well engineered, strong, beautiful, elegant and perfectly suspended velocipede. Not to mention the XL Geo is perfect for me @ 6'5". Now I just have to send the cup back to CC. And thanks to SC spec'ing a 1.5" HT because now I have a spare 0* cup to insert and may continue RIDING!!!!!!!!!!!
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Yesterday i tried the dual offset setup with -1 up top and -1.5 in the bottom. After a while in on the ride i started wondering if running two offset cups really gives you a slacker/steeper ha? Since on a normal works or K9 both top and bottom are offset an equal ammount.
Whereas with the angle set you can use one offset cup with a centered one and the gimbals make everthing aligned. So if you run two offset cups wont that just make the gimbals sit in a less extrem angle? And you still only get the biggest of the two offset cups ha change.
Whereas with the angle set you can use one offset cup with a centered one and the gimbals make everthing aligned. So if you run two offset cups wont that just make the gimbals sit in a less extrem angle? And you still only get the biggest of the two offset cups ha change.
I hope not.
So it turns out that my second installation went just fine even though I was drunk.
I popped a -1.0 up top and -1.5 on the bottom and holy crap...
I rode it pretty hard today and hit all of FMX, and the ski jumps, barn door drop, Extended Play, 3 blind mice, and some other big jumps to ensure it wasn't going to pop and it didn't.
There is definitely a difference between running a 0* and a -1.5 and running a -1.0 and a -1.5. My wheel base grew a half inch between the two. I need to grab an anglefinder and see where I'm at. Whatever it is, it felt really good. Even on jumps where slack is usually awkward.
I popped a -1.0 up top and -1.5 on the bottom and holy crap...
I rode it pretty hard today and hit all of FMX, and the ski jumps, barn door drop, Extended Play, 3 blind mice, and some other big jumps to ensure it wasn't going to pop and it didn't.
There is definitely a difference between running a 0* and a -1.5 and running a -1.0 and a -1.5. My wheel base grew a half inch between the two. I need to grab an anglefinder and see where I'm at. Whatever it is, it felt really good. Even on jumps where slack is usually awkward.
talked to a mechanic for one of the teams at the last Pro GRT and he said their Angleset is hit or miss when it comes to loud knocking noises.
mine's been fine after i reset and rode on it...hit.
And note that this is across 5+ bikes, not one, and factory/team mechanics who I'm comfortable assuming wouldn't have their jobs if they werent very very good at it.
AND mine has been working click free since I slathered a bucket of goo on every possible surface before reassembling on Sat.
I'll still replace it - slack enough for me, and I wouldnt be changing willy nilly -- I'll put it in the drawer in case I feel the need for adventure.
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Make a triangle from stem to ground to a point on the ground parallel with the fork.
Mine?
It doesn't look that slack just looking at it.. until you use the vertical fence lines as a reference.
That's a great looking bike. Large?Mine?
It doesn't look that slack just looking at it.. until you use the vertical fence lines as a reference.
Thank you sir! The frame is a Medium.
It's an '07 Elite. After selling my 2010 Demo 8 II, I had the frame repainted. I stripped and polished the links popped in new bearings and an Angleset and I really can't ask for anything more.
Here's the true color.
It's an '07 Elite. After selling my 2010 Demo 8 II, I had the frame repainted. I stripped and polished the links popped in new bearings and an Angleset and I really can't ask for anything more.
Here's the true color.
I thought it was just me. I installed an Acros Ai-25 headset in my V10c last night and the top cup went in with medium hand pressure. The bottom cup went in normally. I'll try the cup swap to see what happens. Wonder if the frames aren't being reamed properly, since we're talking about 2 different headsets.
Don't have an angleset, but have been observing this thread and have a couple questions for the angleset owners.
1. What material is the gimbal and the insert/race which the gimbal sits in?
2. What type of surface finishing is used on these parts?
3. To your best estimate what is the surface RMS of the two contact points. For reference I'd estimate a fork stanchion to be in the neighborhood of ~10.
1. What material is the gimbal and the insert/race which the gimbal sits in?
2. What type of surface finishing is used on these parts?
3. To your best estimate what is the surface RMS of the two contact points. For reference I'd estimate a fork stanchion to be in the neighborhood of ~10.
Call 800-234-2725.
Make sure you are using Fiber Grip not grease to install the cup. It turns out it was the cup that I was using that was out of spec. Not the frame.
Thanks for the tip MmmBones. I did use grease for the AI-25, but Fiber Grip would not have made a difference with my top cup. I just pulled it out by hand, and the bottom cup with a slight tap. This headset is going back and I've ordered a regular (non Angleset) CaneCreek 40ZS49 reducer.
I have the problem too!!
Can someone recommend a good alternative non-angleset headset to get? I don't need this problem.
I talked to an Intense factory rider at the Open last weekend. He said he loves the thought and idea of the angleset, but doesn't think it is ready yet for the DH bikes. He quit using it and is just using a straight headset. He said he was tired of having the issue and thought the adjustability was not needed.
Can someone recommend a good alternative non-angleset headset to get? I don't need this problem.
I talked to an Intense factory rider at the Open last weekend. He said he loves the thought and idea of the angleset, but doesn't think it is ready yet for the DH bikes. He quit using it and is just using a straight headset. He said he was tired of having the issue and thought the adjustability was not needed.